Difference between learning and being told what to do.

Before I begin, this is posted here because it is mainly applicable to the posts one sees in the Beginners Forum.

OK, I have been thinking about this for some time now. This first came to my attention in someone's blog here, I think it was Lukie's. It was a discussion on why you don't see the top notch players posting much in forums because they either know everything or want to figure out ideas for themselves. It's something along those lines, anyways here it goes, this could be somewhat controversial due to recent events however I think this is an important concept:

Sometimes you just have to figure things out for yourself

It's pretty simple, but for the most part at this forum I do not see this happening. Im not criticizing anyone. I especially do not want the veteran posters who answer every single noob question to feel attacked by this. However, at what point do we stop getting fed the answers and actually go out and find them ourselves?

Sure, there are some extremely complex situations which elicit great debates. However, the countless endless stream of repetitiveness is starting to become somewhat ridiculous. I hope some of the newer members of FTR catch this and take the advice:

You will become hugely more successful at poker if you take the initiative to teach yourself

Until you sit down, analyze a hand, a line, a tournament, an anything, you will not fully understand the complex concepts of the game. It is just that simple. Having one of the veteran players tell you why you should have folded KJ to a push or why opening an Ace on the button is automatic will never make you a great poker player. You yourself need to look at this situation and determine WHY a certain play is the RIGHT play. Until you do this you will never truly improve at poker. Poker is not a buddy system, FTR is a great place to bounce ideas around but should not a place for holding your hand when you walk across the street.

What the beginners/strugglers need to realize is that poker is a game where you get what you put into it. If you put some hard work, time, and effort into your game, it will improve. If you come in here, ask questions you could have answered yourself, get a cookie-cutter answer, and remain stagnant in your abilities you only have yourself to blame.

I would like to see this happen more often:

1. A beginner has a question, he/she wants to post it here/in NL strats/in SNG's/etc...
2. Before the beginner hits the 'submit' button he/she actually goes and researches the topic. Wether it be using our search engine, other forums, poker books, or any other article.
3. The beginner then answers his/her own question in their post.
4. Member then analyze this

I really see this as a much more constructive way to learn a concept. I know the "beginner" forum is here to be open to any questions and for us to provide the answers. However, I have to wonder:

How good of a service are we really providing?

Do veteran members just stating the same answer to the same question actually produce any true improvement? I think not. From now on I think this forum should take a more socratic method.

Let's start answering questions with questions.

I am a beginning player myself and I agree with you in that we (us beginners) are better off in the long run learning concepts for ourselves and it will make us better players.

However, for me anyway, I study some of my hands and I genuinely don't know if it was the right play or not and whether I should have folded or not/raised or not/been in the hand at all. This is why I post my hands so that I can be guided by people like you and the other more experienced plaayers into making the right decisions. I don't want to be another fish losing all my money due to bad plays when I can get some help/guidance from better players.

I like your post and will be interested to see what some of the other new players think and how the "veteran" players feel about helping new members with what are widely seen as "basic" decisons/concepts.

I'm partially with you. See my post where I told a poster "if you want personal fukn attention, go see a prostitute"

However, that said what experience do you have as a teacher? How are you the authority for what is the best way for beginners to learn? I've taught music, dance and economics at university and I don't feel qualified to tell people how to learn or how to teach.

Have you tried doing research? Do you know how hard that shit is? 6 months ago I wanted to buy a pair of skis. I tried searching on a ski forum but didn't find what I wanted. So I made a post. I was aware there were probably many posts, but I was hoping someone would volunteer 15 seconds of their time and either give me some links or tell me the answer. I get the point about this whole learning for yourself. But as long as someone approaches with respect I'm personally willing to help someone on their way. If you're not, then just don't respond.

If it's an arrogant shit posting then tell him to shut the fuck up, for sure. But in a recent thread that I'm guessing prompted this, they guy asked nicely "if you don't mind", tell me a bit... you know help me out a bit. And searching isn't that easy. I typed "going pro" in the search. The top results (excluding the newest thread) were a sportsbetting thread, lukie's thread of randomness, winner's circle, operation 75k, time to legalize online poker, new 19 hand play chart, and swiggidy's blog. I couldn't find what the guy was looking for. As a law student and stockpicker myself I'd live to have your research skills. Wouldn't mind if you could share them with me... or would you rather have me search for it?

Good post. Polite too .

I think the biggest problem with this forum as far as your argument goes is when people post 1 line answers to questions with no reasoning behind them at all.

"push the turn" is a fairly useless piece of advice unless there are some clues as to what similar situations we should also be pushing the turn, and the similar but not quite the same situations that we should definatly not be pushing the turn.

Rather than just giving the recipe for the desired action it would be far more helpful to post the some of the thoughts and resoning behind your decision and then maybe even let the original poster work it out for themselves with you leading them there.

Even worse is the dreaded "fold preflop". If ive raised 75s UTG and got into trouble with it later then by all means tell me you usually fold it preflop. But dont ONLY tell me you usually fold it preflop. If im in trouble on the turn/ river and you make a 2 word post saying "fold preflop" then thats almost worthless to me.

Far better would be to say "I usually fold preflop because ... but as played i would .... because ....".

Rather than one person trying to answer every single new post it would be much better if you tried to answer a few a day (or every couple of days) but really put some effort into giving the reasoning. Its very rare in poker that the exact same situation will come up twice against the exact same player so posting actions without reasons is almost valueless.

Ive been thinking of making a post like this for a while but this seems like a sensible place to put it.

Originally Posted by Hornstar

However, for me anyway, I study some of my hands and I genuinely don't know if it was the right play or not and whether I should have folded or not/raised or not/been in the hand at all.

That's fine, it's not really what I am discussing here. That's more in depth analysis in the game which by all means is welcome.

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

However, that said what experience do you have as a teacher?

--To validate my first post I guess I should tell you I have taught golf for a living the past three years. However, poker is a different animal than any other game.

The top results (excluding the newest thread) were a sportsbetting thread, lukie's thread of randomness, winner's circle, operation 75k, time to legalize online poker, new 19 hand play chart, and swiggidy's blog. I couldn't find what the guy was looking for. As a law student and stockpicker myself I'd live to have your research skills. Wouldn't mind if you could share them with me... or would you rather have me search for it?

No doubt the search engine can be difficult to use if one isn't a computer tech. However, it will work if one uses quotations and limitations.

Good post. Polite too .

Originally Posted by Pelion

I think the biggest problem with this forum as far as your argument goes is when people post 1 line answers to questions with no reasoning behind them at all.

This is no doubt what this post is backhandedly getting at. I see veteran members getting tired of answering the same questions and in essence it affects their posts as a whole. This somewhat surfaced in SSHE a little while back. What are the veteran members getting out of posting here and helping out? Well unless there are some good debatable subjects, not much really.

I'm with you on many accounts. I think when you see a first post that goes along the lines of I had KK and blah blah blah. If the blah blah blah can be answered by stickies and other very frequent posts, they shouldn't be answered in that thread. It's then that the new poster should be welcomed and sent in the right direction. A new player, and that's what we are talking about here, not some experienced player that comes in with particular questions to problems or leaks, but a new player to poker should be taught to find the beginner digest, all the sticky's and sent off to read. Don't ask questions about starting hands, pot odds and AA vs. KK and you lost OMG RIGGED, these questions are run over to the point of nausea and any 12 year old could find it if asked. they need to learn alot more than how to p[lay that one hand obviously. You want to help get them the help they need.

I taught Karate for 12 years and if someone came into our Dojo and asked a question about a spin kick, we didn't answer that question, he's going to hurt himself and/or others. Don't answer the question if it's going to hurt him. If he has an obviously bad game, and you know it, don't answer the question. Send him to class. Basics, basics, basics.

Another forum we all know talks about noise/content ratio. Reposting the same questions over and over is noise not content.

It's important to focus less on the how, and more on the why when teaching poker. We're not building a house, we're building a thought process.

When I performed improv stage comedy, the most important thing we had to remember was "Yes, And". It's not enough to respond. You have to elaborate.

Good thread, unfortunately it may already be tl;dr to most.

My beef with new posters is the ones that don't seem to have put any thought/independent work into their question at all.

That being said, even if you read every (good) poker book printed you still need help applying this information. That's where I see FTR being useful to beginners, and the beginners that embrace this idea are the ones who are on their way to being successful. It's easy to help a person who is mis-applying an idea, those posts receive a good response. The posts asking "standard" questions get "standard" responses because it's obvious OP hasn't put any thought into the question. The noobs that care will come back and post a follow up "please explain this" post and it's usually patiently explained (even if it is "again").

Let's start answering questions with questions.

It's funny how often you don't get a response. Although with proper execution this is the best way to learn, IMO.

the countless endless stream of repetitiveness is starting to become somewhat ridiculous.

It has always been ridiculous, I think you are just noticing it now. Yes, the same people answer the questions now, but they won't be answering the questions in 3-6 months. Some of the noobs will stick around and answer these questions for the next batch. It's a circle, feel the flow.

Personally I feel an "obligation" to answer since I'm leaching so much info from the mid+ stakes players that I like to give something/anything back. Thinking about the game is important, but it's also pointless to re-invent the wheel, which is why Lukie exempted <100NL from his blog post.

Just getting started with Texas Hold'em? Unsure of something? Don't be afraid to ask.

It's very easy to forget that once upon a time we thought limping K6o in EP was a good idea. When you teach a noob - a noob who can have already played 20k hands, even - you have to remember that concepts that seem breathtakingly obvious to you may well not be to them. Price out draws? What if you've never figured that out and never had it mentioned to you, or you've moved over from limit - once it's explained to the noob he'll be like "OHHH, that makes sense!" but it's only a logical jump that bright/diligent players will figure out for themselves.

Our problem is that we hardly ever have those "eureka!" moments any more because we know the basics, the things that are easily taught. But beginners don't know these things, and how on earth are they to become sophisticated players if they are lacking any of the fundamentals?

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Yes, the same people answer the questions now, but they won't be answering the questions in 3-6 months. Some of the noobs will stick around and answer these questions for the next batch. It's a circle, feel the flow.

I think this is a key point. Discussing the basic concepts helps players on the second rung hone their own understandings, and analyse the methodologies, as much as it instructs the newcomers. It has always given me pleasure to be able to set people off on the right road, and it's definitely improved my game.

Pelions problem with FTR number 2

One of the reasons I post advice is so that people will correct me if im wrong. I get the feeling alot of posters on this board are scared of contradicting a "respected poster" and so alot of bad advice goes around. If I post something and you disagree with me chances are one of us us wrong. If you publicly contradict me then hopefully we can figure out which one of us and why. If you dont want to contradict me then I just hope its you thats wrong, because if its me your politeness is costing me money. You can debate things with people without offending them just as long as you are polite. Do it. Its good for the game.

a good noob search tool
www.google.com then,
in the search box type in, site:www.flopturnriver.com;XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXX being your key words
say for example. site:www.flopturnriver.com;going pro
This gives you alot of relavant topics.

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 255,000 from www.flopturnriver.com for going pro. (1.13 seconds)

going proNo Limit Texas Holdem Strategy & Limit Hold'em Strategy Poker Forum.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...c539ba87ef6434 - 67k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Turning Pro. Potential Pitfalls and advice neededGoing Pro: The only word of caution I can give you is when budgeting, to be as conservative as possible when it comes with your income and a generous as ...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...d-41543_70.htm - 85k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Full Tilt's Tips from the Pro'sProfessional Poker: · Player Profiles | Pro Tips | Going Pro, etc. ... Full Tilt sends out a weekly newsletter called "Tips from the Pro's" where one of the ...
www.flopturnriver.com/Tips-From-The-Pros.html - 52k - Jan 1, 2007 - Cached - Similar pages

Reasons to go Pro:I wouldn't want to ruin my poker experience by going pro. Not to dis anyone who is pro--I think it's a respectable endeavor. ...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...298e3dcaa09c12 - 139k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Well, I'm going to try it...Unlike the other people here who have gone pro, I’m not going pro because I am great player, I’m going pro because I can win enough to live on and I think I ...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...29496926406ee1 - 176k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Turning Pro. Potential Pitfalls and advice neededFIRST get a long term profitable record, THEN think about going pro. ... Also the mental aspects of going pro are way more streneous then most people think. ...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...69e1baaf4d964c - 221k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

C-betsMost of the time, if you get your c-bet called your going to give up. If someone calls your c-bets everytime, you may want to consider to stop c-betting ...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...bets-48664.htm - 82k - Jan 1, 2007 - Cached - Similar pages

Operation ProOnline Gambling: Casino Bonus Guide | Reviews | Sports Bets | Blackjack Professional Poker: Player Profiles | Pro Tips | Going Pro, etc. ...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/.../vie...asc&highlight= - 155k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Operation ProPlayer Profiles | Pro Tips | Going Pro, etc. Poker Forum Poker Strategy Online Poker Room Reviews Online Poker Room Bonuses Rakeback FTR Chat Room ...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...49cf31e8aa7a68 - 154k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

I need your help!Hope your poker is going well. Good on you for trying to motivate the masses. ... Once again..keep up the good work, and I hope your pro playing is working ...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...help-41877.htm - 117k - Cached - Similar pages



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thats a great idea to use google. That should be in a sticky imo. its much better than the built in search.

Originally Posted by Pelion

thats a great idea to use google. That should be in a sticky imo. its much better than the built in search.

qft!!
That should def. be a sticky, I think it would help everyone

An older link about searching with google:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=google+search

FWIW I found the link quicker with FTR search didn't see it with google

very nice post, and one that I genuinely agree with.

Thanks for the replies. I have been thinking about this throughout the week and have come to mixed results.

The idea of a cycle of noob>novice>expert was one I had failed to realize. It is true that a new poster will in a few months be able to answer the noob questions, thus creating some twisted cirlce of life.

However, I am still standing by my original thoughts. I believe with the oversaturation of players in online poker one cannot simply learn other player's thought processes. Each player needs to determine the style of play that will work the best for them. There are many categories of online poker players:

Moneymaking ballers
Steady earners
Breakeven players
Marginal losers (breakeven players w/ bonuses and rakeback)
Spewers
Huge losers

There are arguments for this I am sure, but I believe the guys making a lot of money aren't playing ABC poker, hell they aren't even playing AB poker. These guys have played a ton of hands, been in the same situations thousands of times, and have realized the most +EV play. They did not get in this spot 1 time, post on FTR, and then play the hand the same way the next 1000 times. They allow themselves to adjust and adapt. They are not bound by what someone told them.

These are the players who play with supreme confidence. Why you may ask? This brings me to my most recent finding:

It's because they know in their minds that they have the capability of making the best play at any given time.

Why do they have this knowledge? It is because they have learned the game.

fwiw, i post in threads that have standard answers when they are HH's i.e ive been there and made that mistake and know i playe it THAT way beofre too or in threads where i genuinly find the HH interesting.
I only read other posts where players who i assume to be better than me argue out a point eg fnord/gabe/(maybe)lukie/fnord

Good thread bigspenda. I agree that you do to have to work things out for yourself to truly understand the game and be able to apply the PRINCIPLES of a particular hand to other situations otherwise you end up like, dare I invoke his name, ripjohngotti.

That said, I'm happy to help people in this learning process and why I rarely give 1-2 word answers to questions. Plus, particularly in the beginners' forum, I really think that any question, no matter how basic, is fine.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Pelions problem with FTR number 2

One of the reasons I post advice is so that people will correct me if im wrong. I get the feeling alot of posters on this board are scared of contradicting a "respected poster" and so alot of bad advice goes around. If I post something and you disagree with me chances are one of us us wrong. If you publicly contradict me then hopefully we can figure out which one of us and why. If you dont want to contradict me then I just hope its you thats wrong, because if its me your politeness is costing me money. You can debate things with people without offending them just as long as you are polite. Do it. Its good for the game.

I absolutely agree with this. I worry that just because I have 2600 posts that newer posters don't want to disagree with me in the SNG forum. I WANT people to disagree with me because if I'm wrong I want to learn, and if they're wrong I want THEM to learn, and there's no better way to learn than to try to articulate an opposing point of view and have it logically proved incorrect.

That's why I really appreciate having other experienced players around the SNG forum to disagree with me because I absolutely do make mistakes and have leaks to plug!

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Some of the noobs will stick around and answer these questions for the next batch. It's a circle, feel the flow.

This is an excellent point. I find it so satisfying to see players that the forum has helped reach this point and start answering questions from newer players absolutely correctly.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

It's important to focus less on the how, and more on the why when teaching poker. We're not building a house, we're building a thought process.

Perfectly said. I think there's much more to be got out of Hold 'Em strategies than there is in Hand Histories.

I agree that it's important to state why, plus I also think that hand histories could be expanded on a bit more... e.g. questioning things like what you do if the opponent bets rather than checks, etc. in order to come to an overall conclusion that can apply well to similar situations in the game, rather than just "Raise flop, raise turn and call a push".