diff levels, diff respect

I know this goes against the BR managent rules but with a $150 BR, i decided to play the .25/.50 NLHE tables for a 30 dollar buy in. I've made $200 today and most of it is because of one simple thing I've noticed, players respect the a 3BB raise a lot more at these tables than the .10/.25 tables. When I can throw more hands off of a players starting range, it's +EV....

you could also have a small sample size and are running hot.

I think a good player shoul dbe able to adjust to all sorts of opponents. Expecting an opponent to play a certain way will only stunt your growth.

AT TEH SAME TIME.
Congratulations on the dinero.
Just make sure that you be careful. Going broke is really not fun.

I just read your post again.
The looser ur opponents are the more money you make.
Your EV is simply higher when they make more mistakes after the flop.
Having them tighten up is NOT +EV.

I read about wanting to find tables that are loose, but i feel I struggle once the table gets around 50% seeing the flop. I'm trying not to play tables so shortstacked so that I can play tighter amongst these players and these tables, but adjusting to looser play is something I struggle with. I've been working hard on tightening up my play this last month and it's showing great results. But I would agree, I need to learn to adjust better, I want to become a better MTT player and this is something I lack, I struggle to get going in a tournament...

As for running hot, yes I am playing better poker. But it's simply that I'm reading players a lot better now, I'm recognizing bets (he's trying to buy it, he's got a pocket pair against my two high cards, he's on a draw, etc...). I read DavSimon's post on MTT strategy and in it he said to write down what you think your opponents have on a given hand and then see how close you are. I've been doing it for 4 days now and my reads are getting incredibly closer. I don't know about you, but it's a great feeling when you simply outplay a player cause they don't have it and can't call you to prove that you do.

But I try to be humble, I can get better, I want to get better, and I will. I'm glad I found this site, because I don't think I'd be learning these lessons quite as quickly without it...

Originally Posted by fade177

As for running hot, yes I am playing better poker.

He means getting luckier cards

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by fade177

As for running hot, yes I am playing better poker.

He means getting luckier cards

I tend to go on the defensive, but I 'm gonna try and take it as a joke. But seriously, I am making much better reads. Last night I played a home game in one of the dorms, and I called the chip leaders hand perfectly 3 times out of 5 times I was up against him. I won all 5 hands and won the small tournament (The one I put him out on I thought he had AJ to my 88, turned out to be AT), but the fact remains that I'm getting better. I'm a very honest guy, Pelion and I hope we can learn to respect that of each other.

Fade nobody is bashing you, they are just being straight up.

1k hands isn't even a lot.
2k hands isn't even a lot.

You are going to need 10k+ hands of profit to show that you are a winning player. Poker variance is insane as you will soon find out.

YOu should move down to 25NL, grind up there and learn how to beat it with solid play, build a bankroll, and then you can move up.

Post 1k hands of profit and then you will know you are a winning player, Until then post some hand histories so people can tell if you are playing right.

fade, nobody is trying to say that you're not telling the truth, or disrespect you. what we're trying to do is say that in your posts we see several things that raise red flags, and you're ripe for seeing the ass end of some hard knocks. take it for what it is.

dont play outside your roll
dont play at tables once and say you cant beat them

because later you get screwed, for the whole lot.
Trust me and them!

I appreciate the concern. Like I said, I struggle to not get defensive, it's part of my personality. To be honest I'm not sure why I jumped up. I actually broke one of my goals in order to do so. My goal was to get the BR up to $400 before I jumped up, instead I jumped up and got the BR up to $340 now. However, I did show myself something at the higher level. I used to play the .10/.25 tables with a short stack between $7-$10 dollars. instead of the max $25. I could grind it up to $15 but if I lost one hand or got cracked in a hand I wasted an hour of work. When I jumped up I played with $35 dollars, still not the full $50, but much less short stacked. It made a difference because I played tighter and without realizing it (I just read about it yesterday, finished Tournament Poker for Advanced Players in about 2 hours) I was using the "Gap Concept," playing better than usual cards when someone of decent skill opened in front of me, something I should consider more often. I didn't have to sit on "monsters" but generally the quality of my cards was a bit higher because I wasn't worried about blinds eating away at as much of my ammo. Unfortunately, last week my roommate got kicked off campus and I no longer have a computer to play from, I had borrowed a friends computer this weekend (I made the most of it), but I believe I will move back down to the $25's playing with a bigger stack and playing a similar game when I get back to playing online every night. If I play 2 table's with say $40 -$50 dollars in play on .10/.25 limits, rather than 1 table of .25/.5 with $35 dollars in play, I may have more at risk (and I don't know the exact math), but I'm willing to bet my variance will be a bit lower, and even if my profits dollarwise are lower, in the long run I will probably show a more positive curve. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that I'm pretty close to the right answer on that one. My goal is to get my BR up to 1K by Christmas, I should be getting a computer around the 20th of the month, so that gives me a month to do so. 35 days to add ~700 to the account. That's $20 a day. I think that is feasible-- aggresive, but feasible. I'm a voracious learner and a quick study and I think with all of FTR's help, this can be done. Later....[/u]

If anything try to stick to levels where you can bring the max amount to the table.

Do you honestly want a half stack when you have the nuts and some fool with a full stack goes all in??

It IS hard getting started. If you want to push up what blinds you play, just don't allow yourself to lose too much in one day. That'll help, you will have winning days, you will have losing days, no matter how good you are.

Nancy

take your $400 BR and go play 400NL

Originally Posted by TalentedTom

take your $400 BR and go play 400NL

Now this I will laugh at...



Ha...

or take your $400 br and go 4 bet preflop in $100/$200 limit, whatever pushes your buttons.

I'd suggest 500-1000 limit HE at hollywood. If you can get an extra 100 bucks you'll have enough to sit in for a big blind. Or...

I'd suggest you play within your roll. Tight games are easy to run over but the thing is that in NL games, the blinds are tiny and you're not going to make a whole lot more by stealing blinds against better players than you are by value betting made hands against fish. If you want to play loose aggressive post flop and push people off of hands, you need a bigger bankroll than normal.

Theres not a lot of difference between the skill of players in the two games you described in your first post, therefore its difficult for a lag bluff the same people off of hands that tight players value bet into. Get my drift?

Theres not a lot of difference between the skill of players in the two games you described in your first post, therefore its difficult for a lag bluff the same people off of hands that tight players value bet into. Get my drift?

I'm trying to grasp this but I think a few words are missing in the last sentence, are you saying that a better player is going to exploit the fact that I'm a preflop aggressor? Their going to bet into me knowing that I'll push?

I don't believe I've ever talked with anyone about a lag bluff and am interested to hear what it is? Perhaps I've used it without realizing so.

And as for NL games, do you think that newer players should play limit games? I've found better success in limit SnG's in the past (To be perfectly honest I'm not sure why...), but as for ring games I would have to think that NL games are my best option. Especially since I can make weaker players pay for their mistakes more in NL than in Limit.

This thread has to do with every one of the veterans who are posting here hearing themselves in your rhetoric. You sound the same as when they got started.

You're probably an excellent player, but it does sound like you've never hit a big wall. Ever loose $1000 bankroll in 2 days? I did. I learned the hard way. I figured it was free money anyway, since I built it up from a free $5, so I played 3/6 limit. I lost a little under half of it in an hour taking bad beats and reloading. I then slowly tilted the rest off over the next day and a half. Sad but true.

i think people are giving fade a little too hard of a time here. You were due maybe a little warning but i don't think you're in danger of sitting at a 5/10 table with your whole roll. just be careful ya dig.

Originally Posted by fade177

Theres not a lot of difference between the skill of players in the two games you described in your first post, therefore its difficult for a lag bluff the same people off of hands that tight players value bet into. Get my drift?

I'm trying to grasp this but I think a few words are missing in the last sentence, are you saying that a better player is going to exploit the fact that I'm a preflop aggressor? Their going to bet into me knowing that I'll push?

I don't believe I've ever talked with anyone about a lag bluff and am interested to hear what it is? Perhaps I've used it without realizing so.

And as for NL games, do you think that newer players should play limit games? I've found better success in limit SnG's in the past (To be perfectly honest I'm not sure why...), but as for ring games I would have to think that NL games are my best option. Especially since I can make weaker players pay for their mistakes more in NL than in Limit.

Sorry my last sentence was a little mangled. What I meant is that you cant bluff in the same game that other good players would value bet a lot in. Those games are full of callers and if you just wait for good hands and bet it, you'll be doing much better than trying to play too aggressively.

Its best to play straightforward, ABC poker when you're starting because it gives you a chance to really master the fundamentals + earn some nice profit.

And yea like rondavu said, I see in you how I was when I first started. Move up and my bets get respected and I don't get bad beats! But the the problem was I wasn't patient enough to actually play ABC tight aggressive poker. I didnt wait enough to only put my whole stack at risk when I really had the goods - I won small pots with AA but lost huge ones with it.
Playing against 5 random hands every flop will really give you some practice recognizing when someone has just sucked out on you or when your aces have been outflopped.

Limit and NL are two different things. I played limit for my first couple weeks, then switched to NL and havent gone back. I can't tell you which is easier or better, but NL isn't that hard. Play whichever you're more comfortable with. If SNGs are your thing, then play those - many people here have built huge bankrolls off of SNGs.

Ok, I make better reads when less people are in the hands. However, what I'm hearing is that if I play tables where it's +50% to the flop, even as difficult as it may be to win due to aggressive play because of the callers, I'll learn to recognize when to make good folds. Cause as much as I don't like the idea of trying to play against 5 players in a hand, I do like the idea learning to make better folds, I fail to fold against the suckout quite often, especially when I'm not giving them odds to chase. The other day I lost $40 on a hand where I knew the villian had nothing and it was a 3 suited board, no straight draw, I bet the pot on the flop and turn and he called, I catch a back door straight and he ends up catching a Jack 2 back door flush, wish I could have folded to the all-in push even though I had caught a straight...

Originally Posted by fade177

Ok, I make better reads when less people are in the hands. However, what I'm hearing is that if I play tables where it's +50% to the flop, even as difficult as it may be to win due to aggressive play because of the callers, I'll learn to recognize when to make good folds. Cause as much as I don't like the idea of trying to play against 5 players in a hand, I do like the idea learning to make better folds, I fail to fold against the suckout quite often, especially when I'm not giving them odds to chase. The other day I lost $40 on a hand where I knew the villian had nothing and it was a 3 suited board, no straight draw, I bet the pot on the flop and turn and he called, I catch a back door straight and he ends up catching a Jack 2 back door flush, wish I could have folded to the all-in push even though I had caught a straight...

Yea, in NL a lot of profits come from big hands running into bigger hands. What you need to do is be on the bigger side more often than not. It can be hard to give up a good hand when you're sure that you're beat, but it gets easier with time. Its always gonna be frustrating to have to throw away a good hand though so get used to it. On the flip side, you do not want to turn into a scaredy cat and go folding every time someone bets. Finding a safe zone between foldy land and calling station land is going to come from judgement and experience.

Sorry for these huge posts by the way, I'm not trying to preach or be annoying. But anyways, with hands like top pair, you want to cut odds, but if there are five people in the hand with you, you don't want to go potting the flop, potting the turn, and potting the river because the pot is going to get huge and if just one of those people has caught something good, you're gonna go broke with the hand. Top pair and 2pair-ish hands are ones to play aggressively, but to also be willing to throw away as soon as the board gets shity and those calling stations suddenly come to life and bet. In other words, you want to give heat with those hands but take no heat with them.

What you're really looking for though are those huge hands where you're begging for callers. You know the feeling. Like when your AK hits an AKA flop or something like that. You don't need to worry about people drawing out on you, and the more callers the merrier. Those hands are where your big profits come from. In the low stakes games online, if you just camp for pocket pairs and sets you'll make money. ilikeaces taught me that when I was first starting.

click here for some strategy articles that might help. some of them are a little advanced, but some of them are pretty good too.

HERE

I love sethunting with pairs to small raises. You know they have something they might hold on to. And I understand the Big hand vs. Bigger hand idea for profit (it's just bad when your only the big hand, 2Pair to a set). But yeah I'm sitting here beggin' for someone to catch a piece when I catch a monster. How can I get upset if it gets cracked when I got my money in the center when I had the best of it by a longshot, right.....

How can I get upset if it gets cracked when I got my money in the center when I had the best of it by a longshot, right.....

When you are the one with the great, but second best, hand; the one that gets outdrawn twice in a row, when you got your moeny in the centre with the best of it; the one that just lost half his BR to variance, then you'll get upset. Maybe.

Or maybe you'll just learn your lesson and not play outside your BR so if these things do happen to you (and they likely will) you can shrug it off as easily as you say you will.

*This post is not directed strictly at lamaros, this is at anyone who finds themselves getting overly tilted over getting cracked...

What I'm saying lamaros is that I can't beat myself up over a decision that I would make every time. I'm a heart-on-my-sleeve type of person and I play sports such as golf and poker where the majority of players are emotionless or very subtle. I choose to stay with my personality and be me, emotional but a fierce competitor in everything I do. What I have learned about this though over years of competition is the way to make it work is to not beat yourself up when you made the right decision at the right time, when you did everything in your power to succeed. I've competed at the national level in golf and have came just short of winning the NJCAA Div II Men's Golf Championships this past year, (I finished 9th in the nation, my putter went very cold that week). As much as I wanted to win and knew I could contend, I can't kill myself over not making it when I put myself in the best position to do so. All those times you get someone to raise you all-in preflop when your holding AA, that's exactly what you want, so don't get mad when 20% of the time it gets cracked. I've watched friends, who are far worse players than myself (not claiming that I'm great, I'm claiming they're bad and have too much ego to realize it) chuck keyboards across the room on beats where they were only 4 to 1 favorites, probably as low as 3 to 1 favorites.

What I'm getting at is that it's ok to be upset over a tough loss, but it's not ok to get so angry and become irrational, especially in online poker where you can go find another fish to pay your bills. Tilt is a choice.

I have a tip that I read in an article that Jennifer Harman wrote and its premise was "If your playing well, keep playing, don't quit cause your ahead, maximize this time you're playing well and at an easy table, but let it go when you no longer have this advantage. If you start off playing poorly and are having an off day, quit, don't waste more money on bad playing days when you don't have to. Minimize time playing poorly, maximize time playing well." And I live by this online. If I start off poorly, I don't fight it, I choose to step away with what I have left and come back when I feel like I can play better poker. On nights when I'm playing well, I will play until my eyes hurt, maximizing my return on my play. This whole thread started cause I had good weekend, I merely was maximizing a time period I felt I was playing well, I played maybe 800 hands or so this weekend and made the most of it, but Sunday when I went to play again, I simply wasn't as focused and lost a hand early on, and got up and walked away. I later played that home game I talked about higher up in this post when I felt I could win again, and I did. I think that's food for thought with online poker, when you can choose where and what tables you play.


Sorry for the long post....

Originally Posted by fade177

*This post is not directed strictly at lamaros, this is at anyone who finds themselves getting overly tilted over getting cracked...

What I'm saying lamaros is that I can't beat myself up over a decision that I would make every time. I'm a heart-on-my-sleeve type of person and I play sports such as golf and poker where the majority of players are emotionless or very subtle. I choose to stay with my personality and be me, emotional but a fierce competitor in everything I do. What I have learned about this though over years of competition is the way to make it work is to not beat yourself up when you made the right decision at the right time, when you did everything in your power to succeed. I've competed at the national level in golf and have came just short of winning the NJCAA Div II Men's Golf Championships this past year, (I finished 9th in the nation, my putter went very cold that week). As much as I wanted to win and knew I could contend, I can't kill myself over not making it when I put myself in the best position to do so. All those times you get someone to raise you all-in preflop when your holding AA, that's exactly what you want, so don't get mad when 20% of the time it gets cracked. I've watched friends, who are far worse players than myself (not claiming that I'm great, I'm claiming they're bad and have too much ego to realize it) chuck keyboards across the room on beats where they were only 4 to 1 favorites, probably as low as 3 to 1 favorites.

What I'm getting at is that it's ok to be upset over a tough loss, but it's not ok to get so angry and become irrational, especially in online poker where you can go find another fish to pay your bills. Tilt is a choice.

I have a tip that I read in an article that Jennifer Harman wrote and its premise was "If your playing well, keep playing, don't quit cause your ahead, maximize this time you're playing well and at an easy table, but let it go when you no longer have this advantage. If you start off playing poorly and are having an off day, quit, don't waste more money on bad playing days when you don't have to. Minimize time playing poorly, maximize time playing well." And I live by this online. If I start off poorly, I don't fight it, I choose to step away with what I have left and come back when I feel like I can play better poker. On nights when I'm playing well, I will play until my eyes hurt, maximizing my return on my play. This whole thread started cause I had good weekend, I merely was maximizing a time period I felt I was playing well, I played maybe 800 hands or so this weekend and made the most of it, but Sunday when I went to play again, I simply wasn't as focused and lost a hand early on, and got up and walked away. I later played that home game I talked about higher up in this post when I felt I could win again, and I did. I think that's food for thought with online poker, when you can choose where and what tables you play.


Sorry for the long post....

I like the way you think, reminds me of aokrongly.. this is a good foundation and i am confident you'll do good based on this alone. also, don't forget that even if you think you made the right decision that its ok to question it and discuss it and be willing to accept other viewpoints. aces might only get cracked 20% of the time, but if you let that take your whole stack every time, then theres a big leak. i'm sure you know that though, its just an extreme example.

Thank you Smack. I'm trying to be as humble as I can be about this. I've only started studying poker seriously in the last 8 months or so, but I love the challenge and could see myself doin this till I die. I'm only 20 but anyone who meets me or talks to me thinks I'm older, I hope it shows as well in my poker game and how quickly I can come to grasp concepts. Like i've said before, I look forward to being a long time member of this forum. I'm mean if you think of it, there are literally millions of hands (maybe billions) of experience on this site. We can all teach everyone something....

Originally Posted by fade177

I'm mean if you think of it, there are literally millions of hands (maybe billions) of experience on this site. We can all teach everyone something....

Thats a good point, I've never though of it that way myself. Glad to have you here and I look forward to more discussion.

Oh and I'm only 21 myself, but most people can pretty much tell