Crossroads, 3rd week at Pokerstars

I'd just like to say hello to everyone at FTR first! I've been browsing these forums for a while and find them quite a good read.

As of 3 weeks ago I joined Pokerstars and put $50 down and began to play micro-limit (0.01-0.02 NL & 0.05-0.10 NL) to get used to the action on the site. I have a solid understanding of the rules and know the odds of people hitting 4-flush draws/straights and so on.


Im thouroughly enjoying the play here and only play a single table at a time. I'd just like some advice from you talented players as I'm finding that after 3 solid weeks my bankroll is sitting at its original balance (believe me im not a rock just sitting there either)

I will swing $10-$15 either way, losing on hands I really should've folded (I take notes when I make mistakes) and win good pots when I push with powerful hands (making draws pay early with poor odds)


Ok so just wondering what to do? Should I start multi-tabling 0.01-0.02 tables and camp for monsters? Tighten up? Loosen up?

Heres some info on my general style:

- I play mostly high face cards, PP's, Suited conns over 56s and Axs (most of these I just limp in, except AA,KK and I mix up the others occasionally)

- Im familiar with using concepts of the game: raising for info, slowplaying, check raising for value ect...

- Don't chase poor draws

Also I'd like to acknowledge my bankroll is rather small for 0.05-0.10 limits, I am happy to add more, was just finding my feet and building skill initially.

Any thoughts/advice? Thank you!

Welcome,

I found starting in the NL micros to be really beat heavy and slow going... have patience it will swing in the right way. If you can get your BR to 150$ and play the .25/.5 Limit games you can see a steady improvement.

Couple things about the micro... you opponent has an ace and semi-bluffing isn't profitable since they will call you down no matter.

- sed

hi sed!

thanks for the input, yes one of the things i've learnt over the last 3 weeks is to learn to fold average hands at micro limits in the face of aggression postflop!

I can still steal pots with feel raises but I dont get carried away.

Should I start multi-tabling these tables and tighten up? Do I need to loosen up? Or just push monsters?

I'm working hard to plug leaks here and adapt a set strategy.

Multi tableing helps to keep me tight b/c I don't get bored and play stupid hands... Try adding another table and see if you can handle it... I would stay at .01/.02 until you get the hang of it.

Sounds like you are playing the right set of hands, just play the lower quality ones cheap and into multiway pots. Play small pairs cheaply for the set. Work on finding your leaks, not just where you lose too much money in a pot but where you don't get the maximum out of winning hands.

- sed

ok sed ill try opening another table to curb the boredom. Yea i'll work on getting the most out of winning hands as well, ill mix it up when i've got a strong one and throw em off.

thanks for the insights! tryin em out now.

Hey Maverick,

You haven't lost your bankroll, so I'd say you're doing quite well for starting off! At least you're beating the rake (if there is a rake at those micro-stakes!).

I like to multi-table because it makes me play a more patient game. Folding hands for 30 minutes can be painful and then makes QJo look like a monster. Multi-tabling should help promote a tight, disciplined strategy. Camping for killer cards is key in the ring. Once you can do that successfully, then you can start mixing up your play with position and lesser cards... but I always recommend first learning a super-tight and aggressive strat, and then add in some loose variations.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by Maverick

- I play mostly high face cards, PP's, Suited conns over 56s and Axs (most of these I just limp in, except AA,KK and I mix up the others occasionally)

One little tip, instead of limping with those decent hands like AQs or JJ, go ahead and raise, and bet out after the flop if noone else has. Aggression goes great for your table image, and once you show down some good cards, people will respect your raises more, and you will learn how to put pressure on your opponents and force them to make decisions. No Fear...

But keep up the good work, you are doing very well by staying alive for that long on your first try!

I would say at this point it's just a matter of plugging the leaks. What's your flop %, etc? I'm no NL ring expert, although I've been using it alot recently to build up my bankroll - .25/.50 mainly. I don't know if my play is optimal, since I'm mostly a SnG NL guy. But I play UBER-tight (for instance I'll play KQ only if it's suited) and I've found that my winning sessions run 20% - 150% increase for each session, and my losing sessions are -10 to -20%, with a 2 to 1 ratio between winning and losing. The one session where I lost about 50% of what I put on the table I had the full house against 4 of a kind early and got tilty for a bit before I realized I just need to leave and cool off. And I've had a couple of sessions where I triple up, but they're rare because you need alot of table turnover to keep fresh faces with chips at the table who don't know you're only playing monster cards, and only betting made "drawing hands".

At the .25/.50 level were I play there are still 45% - 60% who see the flop, regardless of a reasonable raise, so I play just about everything like a drawing hand, except AA or KK. I make my money playing pocket pairs - any size - cheap and flopping a set. I'll do that once per session and if a nice face or ace flops, then I stand to win big.

It's hard to watch people take pots with 2nd pair or worse, but I'm not going to get involved in stupid play. And, if you watch, those loose players almost always give their winnings back. I rarely do.

Don't loosen up when you're up for the session. If you think "play tigher" as you earn chips, it'll probably keep you on an even keel.

excellent thread. thanks all. i'm a limit guy picking up on the subtleties of NL and this is all VERY useful info.

ChezJ

Originally Posted by aokrongly

It's hard to watch people take pots with 2nd pair or worse, but I'm not going to get involved in stupid play. And, if you watch, those loose players almost always give their winnings back. I rarely do.

Yet another awesome post from AOK. I'll take the above advice to explain my bout of break-even poker.

In the lyrics of the inimitable James Brown..."Tighten up, yeah, you got to tighten up, uhhh, tighten up, ummmm-tighten up, yeah, tighten up." My new theme song.

case in point. I was just now sitting at a 1/2 nl table with $100 for 3 hours, as high as 122 as low as 89. I'm sitting with the low amount. $89. On the bb with 44, call a raise preflop of ($2 to call), 3 people in the hand. Chips and BS had been flying for hours, a real pissing contest. Flop comes 9T4.

I bet 25, call, call. Turn is a rag. I go ai, call, call. River is A, they fight it out. 9T vs at. I triple up after 3 hours of camping.

Then there's the hand I just played at a new table with $100 in my stack. Tripled up 2nd hand (just sat down) with nut flush when I made a bad turn call with AJs (over cards to the board) and 4 to the flush against a wild guy who happened to have pocket kings this time. Rivered the club. The table went nutz - "what an idiot" "you suck", blah, blah, so now they think i'm a loose caller. that's money in the bank for the next hand I get.

The point, though, is get on a loose, crazy table with lots of big stacks and wait for a big hand to rape em with.

Wow so much information! thank you!

ttanaka - yea I dropped back off from the 0.05 - 0.10 table and tried 3 0.01 - 0.02 tables, I found it so much easier to be patient and still play a variety of good cards. (Plus the constant changing of windows keeps your mind from going into auto-pilot)

storm75m - so your saying to raise for value/represent strong hands and if people have missed the flop they'll happily fold to a decent bet on the flop? Sounds good, it is surprising how often it can work once you showdown a good hand.

aokrongly - my flop %? How do you find that out? Do Pokerstars tell you your percentages or is there an option in the menu?
Im guessing mines quite low as I play PP's, suited conns over 5 an high face cards.
I would have to agree on the amount of people who will STILL call reasonable raises (even with 2nd hand or worse) So yea I tend to do the same as you. Then push when you know you've got the odds, make em pay to suckout eh


Thanks all, I'm going to concentrate on 3 tables for now. I have a quick question though!

On occasion i've hit say trips or a straight on the flop but I also see a 4-flush possibility on the board. I've pushed in these instances as flush draws dont have the best possibility of hitting (is it under 40%?)

SO what im asking is - I dont mind pushing with the max buy-in if i've got a good hand against weak draws, but if you've been lucky an have say 2 or 3 times max buyin do you still want to push? If a player hits their draw you will lose more in these instances yes/no?

thanks again

At stars you can find your flop percentage for BB, SB, and outside the blinds. Click on the stats tab by the chatbox.

Ok they have a statistics option and it said out of the last 500 hands I saw 34% of flops, im guessing this is probably too loose. This is since I started trying a bit of multi-table action.

I'm guessing this is a little high, I was playing non-suited connectors (over 5), perhaps I should can those.


What do you all think about 34% for 0.01-0.02 tables?

drop all the non-suited connectors and most of the suited connectors unless close to the button and you can get in for cheap.

34% is high, even for small levels. Use the small levels to build the dicipline you will definitely need at the higher levels. It's the best place to start getting in good habits. It's better to form good tight habits and keep them than to try to change your loose tendancies later. Aim for about 15% of flops seen, when you get down to around 20 percent, you'll be sitting a lot better, but aim for fifteen to get yourself to tighten up.

Originally Posted by Maverick

I'd just like to say hello to everyone at FTR first! I've been browsing these forums for a while and find them quite a good read.

Welcome to the forums.

Heres some info on my general style:

- I play mostly high face cards, PP's, Suited conns over 56s and Axs (most of these I just limp in, except AA,KK and I mix up the others occasionally)

- Im familiar with using concepts of the game: raising for info, slowplaying, check raising for value ect...

- Don't chase poor draws

What I haven't seen you mention here is one of the most important aspects of hold'em: position. Do you play these cards in any position? If so you're giving away a lot of chips you shouldn't be. One mantra that works well for me is that I never, ever play weak cards (small connectors, Axs[x<10], etc) out of position.

Also I'd like to acknowledge my bankroll is rather small for 0.05-0.10 limits, I am happy to add more, was just finding my feet and building skill initially.

Any thoughts/advice? Thank you!

Actually a $50 bankroll for those limits isn't that bad. That's 500 bb; you might even try moving to the $0.10/$0.25 levels.

Thanks for the responses guys!

Gatlin Dan - thanks for the info. Last hour I kicked it way back and upped the aggression when I did have hands. I will drop the unsuited connectors (they really can be trouble) and tighten up more.

I noticed I took a lot more pots jus by denying people cheap draws, and saved loosing some big pots by raising for info early on the flop.


LockLow34 - I believe you've hit one of the reasons for my high flop percentage. I don't seem to pay a whole lot of attention to position (I realise this is bad.)

I am still learning and need to focus on this. So to make sure i've got your point:

Suited cons/Ace - rag suited = mid to late? (or late only)

Average PP (JJ - 22) = mid to late? (or late only)

2 unsuited face cards = mid to late?

thanks for the pointers. Oh and I might leave the 0.10-0.25 level till I get my game upto scratch. thanks for the bankroll info though!

cheers again!

Originally Posted by Maverick

Thanks for the responses guys!

Gatlin Dan - thanks for the info. Last hour I kicked it way back and upped the aggression when I did have hands. I will drop the unsuited connectors (they really can be trouble) and tighten up more.


I am still learning and need to focus on this. So to make sure i've got your point:

Suited cons/Ace - rag suited = mid to late? (or late only)

Average PP (JJ - 22) = mid to late? (or late only)

2 unsuited face cards = mid to late?
cheers again!

This is still a little loose. You want to play suited A-rag cheaply. JJ-22 is a big range for pairs. You can play things like 99-JJ in middle position for sure, but be sure to raise with them to drive out all the crap hands that can outdraw you. You want to be heads up against someone with hands like these most of the time. Face cards are deceiving. Just because you have two face cards, doesn't mean you necessarily have a good hand. KT and lower offsuit facecards should be automatically mucked even from late position unless you are trying to steal the blinds. Be careful which off suit face cards you play against a raise. You don't want to be dominated.

thanks again Gatlin Dan!

Your advice is most appreciated, ok i'm working on my position leaks at the moment. This hand advice is working well. I liked the hands I was playing, but I was basically playing them from any position...

I am beginning to notice a *slow and steady* gain from my play at the tables rather than big, eratic up an down fluctuations.

thanks again!

im sorry Gatlin but that sounds waaay too tight. At that rate, at least in a ring game NL the blinds are gonna eat all your money up. I play 100 NL succesfully and here's what I play:

UTG, UTG+1: all pocket pairs, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, QT, QJ, KT, KJ, KQ, K9s, KTs, KJs, KQs, QJs, JTs, QTs, AKs, AQs, AJs, ATs, A9s, A8s, A7s
UTG+2,UTG+3: add A2s, A3s, A4s, A5s, A6s, JT, Q9s, J9s, T9s, 98s, A9, A8
UTG+4, UTG+5: add A7, J9, K8, 87s, 76s, Q8s, K8s, K7s, K6s, K5s, J8s, T8s, T9
UTG+6, Dealer: add A6, A5, A4, A3, A2, J8, Q8, 56s, 97s, T7s, J7s, Q7s, Q6s, K4s, K3s, K7, K6, K5, 98, 87 (this last one is questionable, sometimes i dont)
Small Blind: everything except 27, 37, 47, 23, 24, 25, 26, 34, 35, 36, 47, 48

I raise with:
AA-99: any position
88-77: late position
AK, AKs: any position
AQ, AQs, AJs: mid-late position
KQs, KJs, AJ, KQ: late position
KJ, AT, ATs: sometimes in late positon, if I'm attacking the blinds

whoa wait a second. fnord, 'rilla, et al., have been saying that the drawing hands are more powerful in NL, especially the NON-suited connectors because it is less obvious when they hit and you get paid off the most on non-obvious monster hands. they told me TPTK is less valuable when the stacks are deeper and thus the implied odds are better for those who are drawing against you.

ChezJ