Counter-Play NL ring Theory

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Sorry, this is going to be in my book. So you'll get another shot at it.

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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-37660.htm

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Another amazing post aok, you've just cleared up about a million things in one post. I sense a sticky hat-trick!

nh

At what limits do you think this counter-play strategy will begin to break down? Actually its more about the specific table you're at than the limit you're playing but clearly there's a correlation between the stakes you're playing and the tendencies of your tables.

I'm assuming that its advisable to go back to ABC TAG poker provided your 3-5BB pre-flop raises actually get enough respect to limit the field to 3 or 4 seeing the flop.

How, if at all, should this strategy be adjusted for tournament / SNG play?

If I may, I dare to answer your question, Eric (Aok please correct me if I am wrong). You want to play a normal TAG game preflop, where you might see 25% or so of flops with some exceptions for hands that are great for flopping monsters (this may raise your flop-seeing % to near 30). The key, as Aok says, is position. Let's break it down to a couple classes of hands:

1. Pocket Pairs:

You might play any pocket pair in any position at the right table. Definitely limp with any pp in any position. But, if you are at a table where it is common to see some major action before the flop, you want to tighten this up in early and middle position. You probably want 9s or better in early position, maybe 7s or better in middle position and any pp CO or Button. Remember that the point to positional preflop play is that the more people that don't raise before you, the lower the chance you are dominated, and also the lower the chance that someone still to act will raise you out of the pot. Some people say to call with a small to medium pp preflop if your raising opponent (and you) have a stack 10x the raise you have to call. The idea here is that you have a 1 in 8.5 or so chance of getting your set on the flop and if you do you will take their stack. Don't take this advice!! Your EV is not that high. You cannot assume you will get their stack, and they might beat you set over set, and also might beat you with a straight or flush. If your pp is lower than 9s, you will most probably need a set to win. Call raises more liberally with these hands if one or more players have called before you. If you think you might be heads up, you should probably only call a raise around 5% of your stack if your pp is 10s or lower.

2. Suited Connectors

Limp the high ones (TJs or better) in EP. In MP, you might be able to limp as bad as a J8s. In late position, you can limp Axs, K8s, J8s, and connectors as low as 54s. Don't forget that your high card value adds much to these hands. These hands can be played much the same as pp. If the stacks are deep and you have a caller in front of you, you can call a moderate raise preflop hoping to get your made hand or monster draw. Do not call huge preflop raises with small to middle suited connectors if you expect to be heads up.

3. Unsuited High card hands

These are hands like AJo and KQo. In Early position, you probably want AQ or KQ. Possibly AJ on a more passive table. MP, you can't play much more, maybe AJ, KJ: AT and QJ need a more passive table. Once you get to late position, you are more free to act, as noone has shown strength yet ... you can play any 2 cards T or better. Remember that with an unsuited high card hand your biggest fear is being dominated. Faced with a decent sized raise, you definitely don't want to play less than AQ. You will lose more on the hands you are dominated than you win on the hands you aren't. Also remember that when you play AJ or a similar hand, it is better to pair your lower card for TPTK than to pair the Ace for top pair decent kicker.

4. Monster starting hands

These are AA, KK, QQ, AKs. With AA and KK, you are in pretty much no matter what preflop. With QQ, you gotta be a little more careful, and this usually depends on reads ... you need to know what your opponent will raise big on. Same with AKs, but you also get the extra 6% or so of nut flushes. With the AA, if you think you can get someone AI preflop, do it! You'll be 80% no matter what they have.

Well, I thought I saw a question by EricE on this thread on possible deviations from normal TAG play. Maybe I was wrong.

Originally Posted by Xanadu

Well, I thought I saw a question by EricE on this thread on possible deviations from normal TAG play. Maybe I was wrong.

You did. I deleted because I decided it was a stupid question. hehe. No worries.

Thanks for your post though. Good stuff.

Hey, no honest question is a bad one, and I'm glad I wasn't hallucinating.

to answer the questions.

First, I've played this up to $2/4 NL. All the testing was done on 1/2 NL. My normal game is a set of mixed 1/2 and .5/1 nl tables - because there generally aren't enough of one or the other where i play most. And I play counterplay anytime the preflop average of players in the pot is over 45% on a normal 10 player table. If it's 40% or low and normal preflop raises and bets elicit "standard play" reactions, like folds, limiting the field and only having players stick around with decent cards, then I play standard TAG play.

Preflop I see about 12-15% of the hands preflop, standard position play. I scanned the list and it's alot looser than I play. Here's my rule, if i don't want to call a raise with it preflop then i only play it in late position (which is button and 1 off). Obviously i'm checking with any 2 on the BB - not a min raise with anything i wouldn't normally call a raise with anyway. To give you an idea of how much tigher I am, I wouldn't play J8s in any position at any time unless i'm doing it for free on the bb. I will limp Axs and Kxs in late position or complete the bet on the blinds. Q9s is another garbage hand i don't play, I don't play 2 gapers, I rarely play 1 gapers where the low card is below T. I'm not a big fan of KT0 but i will play it in late pos. I play truly quality hands based on position. I only call raises with ak (AQs) and pp t and over. When I make my hand I want it to win. And if you look at counterplay i only raise preflop with AA and KK from very late position, or if I call in from early/mid position and get raised then i reraise big. And if I "declare" my hand with a big raise then anyone who call pf better make their hand on the flop because I'm going to put them ai when the flop hits and i have aa or kk - or bet at least 2x pot. I play true suited connectors 9t and better based on position. kqs i'll limp early and call a min raise if i think i'll get the pot odds i need and it won't be reraised behind me. other than that i'm looking at mid to late pos. If you don't understand why position is important, it has to do with information and knowing what you're investing and the pot odds BEFORE you involve yourself in a hand - which you can't know from early pos.

counterplay is a very specific game. now i do bluff, as it says, but when i do it's after i've dragged some big pots with large turn or river bets, and I bluff big.

i hope this helps, i know the orig post isn't all that clear. when i have time i'll add to it, and as i respond to questions it might get clearer. I can tell you that PLENTY of good players are probably pulling their hair out at this whole line of thought. TAG is a proven way to play. However, in some situations it's sub-obtimal. Tight is my natural style. But AGressive can be replaced with Passive and gain better net results - which is what this is about. In the end, when your hand is made and you have the information you need going AGressive is the play. Counterplay is a way to minimize loses and still get good wins, TAG is a way to maximize wins but you'll have bigger swings and bad beats playing a 50%+ preflop table of fish.

oh, i missed a question. SnG and MTT play - never play Counter-play. Not ever. It's a HORRIBLE strategy for tournaments. My advice for tourneys is UBER-TIGHT and UBER-AGRESSIVE WITH THE SHORT STACK, and more carefully with average or better stack. I can't count how many times I've heard good players say they bubbled out getting their chips ai WITH THE BEST HAND. My answer, "did you have to commit all your chips?" A buddy - who won an entry into the US Poker Open, was telling me how he went from 5th in chips to bubbling out through a series of AI moves with "the best of it" (which in one case was pocket 9's). WE argued for 30 minutes on whether he should have been that AGRESSIVE anyway. "well you can't tell me you would fold there" yes i can and i do all the time. I'm 4 for 4 deep in the money my last 4 MTT's with 3 final tables (1 2nd place where I got knocked out with GUESS WHAT, the BEST of it). I've said this before and I'll say it again - WHEN YOU'RE ALL IN, IT'S A 7 CARD GAME IF YOU GET CALLED. That means that ALL the odds come into effect, and your "coin flip" is just that. And your overpair/underpair battle is a 4/1 favorite, but it's a 1/4 dog. and it will be beat 25% of the time. SO IF YOU MAKE THAT MOVE 4 TIMES IN A MTT, YOU WILL BE KNOCKED OUT. Play smarter than that. win pots without ai moves, lay shit down when you don't need to be involved. use your chips to BUY TIME when you have them. don't get stupid even with the "best of it". Case in point, the mtt i played this morning I laid down TT with "the best of it" against 66 and A5s. A5s made a straight and I made the final table (finished 2nd). The last one I laid down a big pair in the same situation to take 5th instead of 12th, the pp in that one was below mine but the 78s made a flush. Anyway that's another post.

there are alot of general misconceptions about "good" play in mtt's. Counterplay is not for mtt's or sng's. It's for playing massive #'s of hands in nl ring. Which i didn't mention in my post. if you only play a few hunderd hands per week then you might as well play TAG because you don't play enough hands for counter-play to give you the emotional payoff you want from playing poker. I play 3-4 hours a day at a rate of 200-250 hands per hour!!

I've read this and read this. It is somewhat like a style I've been working on, but that hasn't been working exactly as I would hope . Non-limiting fields and players drawing bad odds. I hope I work this out for 1000nl+

But, I am a student of the game. This type of play seems very interesting. Even more so for a player like me who multitables. Tight play allows more tables being played in general. On top of that Aok has only a small sample size for his posted results.

I ran a small test tonight and he's right, it is effective. Players in general 'just ram their head against the rock'. I really want see this play in action over a larger sample. I'm doing this more for my learning, but I thought I also would post here. I am going to keep a dayly log with hands and winnings over the next week using Counterplay. Hopefully this will chart 15000 hands.

Definately something all you guys who always complain on IRC about bad beats should look into.

I have recently begun employing this strategy at 2/4 NL at both 6 and 10 max with a lot of success, under certain circumstances. I am much more passive on the flop and much more aggressive on the turn and river when it is a 3+-way hand when I am out of position (with position I can be much more aggressive). Heads up I'm still aggressive from the get-go.

The reasoning behind this passive play is that I cant really chase out draws with my top pair on the flop (and out of position), as I'm not that far ahead of them and their implied odds more than make up for the fact they are a bit behind statistically. Then of course theres the chance I'm paying off 2-pair or a set. So I wait until the turn to make my move, if no one else has, and take the pot down then. Suddenly, with only 1 card left any draws that havent hit arent looking so hot anymore! I do this mostly when the board has ace high so that I dont have to worry about overs hitting.

I mix it up based on table image, how the table is playing, etc. I have two examples from today where I may have wished I played counter-play, although I'm sure the results would have been the same anyway. In one I flopped the low set with a pocket pair against the other player's 2 pair. I bet massively on every street including the river where the board paired (giving us both the FH, but him the better one). That was $150 net loss. And then later I flopped the nut flush and pushed the same to where the other player was AI for about $130 before the river - which turned his set into a FH. Overall, even with those hands I made more than I lost. I can't think, though, of a situation where I can regret these 2 hands. I think counter-play might have reduced my losses by a bit, but it's hard to tell. How can you fold a FH and a nut flush?

Anyway, I'm glad to see others trying it. One of the reasons for the post is to get more input on the theory, get results from other players at other sites/limits, etc. It's a theory in development and all input - good and bad - is welcomed. And actual play results and impressions are priceless. The beginners forum may not be the best place for it, because it is advanced play. But I think it gives beginners a good look at where they can take their game, Plus teach that there's more than one way to scale a fish!

Seeing your signature line Spin made me think to tell you, with this play I multi-table 1/2 NL (3 tables at a time) with a $650 BR!!! Talk about walking a high wire. After 2 months I've never busted out. The closest I came was single tabling a 2/4 and catching a couple monsterous beats playing "standard play". That got me down to 200 and I rebuilt over the next couple days on .5/1. And went back to a multi-table strategy on 1/2, which serves me well. I've always played with a very very lean BR. It keeps my game tight and alert. Thought you'ld like to know.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Seeing your signature line Spin made me think to tell you, with this play I multi-table 1/2 NL (3 tables at a time) with a $650 BR!!! Talk about walking a high wire. After 2 months I've never busted out. The closest I came was single tabling a 2/4 and catching a couple monsterous beats playing "standard play". That got me down to 200 and I rebuilt over the next couple days on .5/1. And went back to a multi-table strategy on 1/2, which serves me well. I've always played with a very very lean BR. It keeps my game tight and alert. Thought you'ld like to know.

Wow! Uhh yeh I do find that suprising. I thought you were like sort of a pro poker player of sorts and had a bankroll of at least 20-30k. So you only have a complete bankroll of 600$, and your playing 1/2??? What happens to all your winnings? Do you have more money stowed away that your willing to get into, i.e. your previous winnings? Have you just broke even this whole time?

Please tell me more about this lol

Edit: I'll tell you this, I play crappy with such a lean bankroll (I know because when I go play 2000 NL I always get bad results). Basically I play with scared money, which is really bad, espicially at high stakes where people like to push you around. With the 35 buy-in roll I have right now, I'm never afraid to put all my money in the middle!

i net 2000 - 3000 average per month. I know my game, know my br requirements and adjust accordingly if something untoward happens. That means if my br goes below 300 i rotate down to lower buyin tables and rebuild. i play without ego or expectations. I base everything on playing the best I can. I know how to play super-conservatively (like counterplay) and also super agressively. But I always, always play super tight. Which really reduces my risk. KT suited is a junk hand for me in any position, for instance. I've had no issues with it. And if I do then i'll adjust my br, my game, my expectations, etc. And i know i can reload my full br out of pocket if push comes to shove. I've never had to do it since i put my A game together the beginning of this year. And the one time i had to cash out my BR. I reloaded $15 on one site, and used a free $10 on another to rebuild my full BR in 72 hours. Then went back to making money. And this is WITH financial pressures. This is literally the first WEEK since i started playing for real money in Feb that both I and my wife have had a job at the same time. The entire other time either I wasn't working or she wasn't - by choice. My winnings were paying the bills. I don't know what i'll do with them now lol. I guess I'll build a $10k br. Although i'm not sure what i would do with it. I assume my game won't break down at $5/10 - if i can find games that suit my style of play.

The short answer - imho - is that I'm probably in the top 5% of good players when it comes to DISCIPLINE. I'm not a great player compared to very many but I'm absolutely disciplined. That makes up for ALOT.

ur o so humble aok =D. We all know your much better than that. Thanks again for that HoH chart by the way.

I can't do it, I just CAN'T DO IT
My natural game is LAG (which is why I do well at SNGs and suck at ring games!).

Aok, I tried to counterplay today at 0.25/0.5 NL but just couldn't resist getting aggressive on the flop and taking it down when I could see the others were weak and dying to fold. So I shuttled between tight-passive (counterplay), TAG and LAG. Did OK, but I know - I need to knuckle down to a tight game .... or perhaps stick to tournies

Lol DB, stick with LAG if it works for you, but just do me a favor - tell me where and when you're playing.

Seriously, different games work in different situations for different people. My rules for having a money making poker game are:

1. Know YOUR game inside out and know it's strenghts, weaknesses, requirements, etc.
2. Execute YOUR game consistently
3. Measure your results and continue to refine and improve. Learn from your mistakes and know that there are ALWAYS alterntive ways to play any hand. think them through - win or lose - and over time if you think changes are in order, incorporate them systematically and continue to measure and monitor yourself and your game.

The difference between making good money and being a break even player is 15%. For different people that 15% involves different things. But once you discover it you'll be happy and financially more secure.

I was talking to a friend today who is also a strong winning player. We weren't talking about bad beats or hands. We were talking about my game where I "risk" on average $15000 per month and win on average $2600. And discussing how to improve that ratio with different tactics, sites, etc. ad nauseum. THAT'S making money at poker. Not, "boy did i get sucked on last night" blah blah blah.

Just play your game.

Originally Posted by aokrongly

Lol DB, stick with LAG if it works for you, but just do me a favor - tell me where and when you're playing.

it would be a great education for me I'm sure, but not so good for my BR!

i do play tight-passive pretty well in a tournie, only because i know I get to LAG it up at some point. Keeps me from continually hitting the raise button , well for the first 20 mins or so at least

Originally Posted by DBL0SVN

Aok, I tried to counterplay today at 0.25/0.5 NL but just couldn't resist getting aggressive on the flop and taking it down when I could see the others were weak and dying to fold.

Doesn't this miss the point? If you can take it down on the flop, you're not at the right table for Counterplay. Isn't AOK saying counterplay is effective when the combination of players at the table means you will NOT chase out players on the flop? I read him to mean that if you know a pot-sized bet is going to get you two callers anyway, check to see, then kick 'em where they pee on the turn.

Also keep in mind that AOK is playing uber-tight. So he's almost definitely ahead pre-flop, and probably still ahead on the flop. But he's checking/calling the flop to hide his big hand. But on the turn he starts wailing on you.

EasyT

Great Post, AOK ....I just keep scratching my head that this is in the beginners forum....

Could you post some HH demonstrating this style of play?

I would like to know how you are playing tptk more specifically. I think I understand but just want to be sure. You are check/calling the flop, and then betting/raising the pot on the turn assuming there aren't 3 of a suit out there? Sorry I just learn better by example so any HH you have would be a blessing.

Hand histories where i play most are CRAPPY. it only gives you 5 at a time. And I have a confession to make. I went back to standard play. I pride myself on patience; but counterplay, while interesting and valuable in some cirumstances, ended up being just too slow for me as my base nl ring game. I play it now when I'm warming up and don't have a feel for the table yet and when I'm already ahead of where I want to be for the session/table and want to keep playing but don't want to risk taking a big step backward.

To answer your question though. Pure counterplay is check/calling with tptk. Counterplay values TPTK as the Least Valuable Payable Hand. From a practical standpoint, however, (we'll call this "modified" counterplay), I'll bet the pot on the flop with TPTK (because it's the cheapest $ pot to bet but is the most expensive % of pot call for drawing hands - see note below), and then check call the turn and river if someone didn't obviously hit a draw. The reason this is modified is because you're breaking counterplay discipline - which is check folding with less than 2 pair.

So pure counterplay is check/call tptk.

* note - for instance preflop pot is $22 in raised pot and you have AK. You hit your K on the flop. Betting $22 gives any drawing hands horrible drawing odds and may take the pot right there. However, say you get called by 1 player. Now the pot is $66 (prebet 22, plus your 22 and the caller's 22) and a pot sized turn bet will be $66. That's a hell of a lot to invest and he's already shown that he'll call. I would check and call a reasonable bet of 1/2 pot and do the same on the river. But you've already shown strength (and were called) and you have the OBVIOUS HAND, so you need to tread carefully. See what I mean. Pure counterplay, however, says that you should check/call. Hopefully anyone that would have called a pot sized bet is making a bet of their own (typically less) and you'll either win the hand or not as would have happened anyway. You're just losing less if the other player is making more timid bets (which people with monster hands over TPTK often do to not "scare" off players). If you feel that you're just building pots with your own money and getting the 2nd best hand (or worse giving the guy with the nut a chance to hide behind your bets and give no information out) then you want to play much slower from a betting perspective.

Good luck

I've been playing at Sporting Bet this week and getting my deposit chewed up in horrible beats -- a mix sea of fish and sharks. I had tried to loosen up my starting hands and go for more drawing hands in big family pots, but it didn't work so well. I'll let you know how Counter-Play goes with what is left of my bankroll.

edit 7/30 OK, it went well. I played Tiiiight except on the folded-to-me-button. Passive call, call call, except for 1/2 pot raised in an unraised pot, or putting opps all in on my few monster flops. Cards were poor for a while, so I played very few hands. When I finally did play more, I sporadically limped in several decent starting hands (AK, AQ, TT.) I eventually was able to build a table rep by checking down my top kickers, my overpairs, and my 2prs repeatedly to the river, and thereby earned more folds later in the evening.

Other changes I made were 1) sitting down with a larger stack, so my big raises meant something even to the dopes who don't understand pot odds, and 2) moving up a limit.

Counter Play was good for my head, too. I felt like I was practicing slow play on willing vicitms, rather than being sucked out on. The one memorable bad beat was unavoidable, so it did not affect me for long -- villian held Q7o while I had AK with a K7x rainbow flop on the board. He check-called my half-pot raises until he hit his Q on the river, where he led out with a small raise, which I called. There were others, but I hadn't invested much.

Score? I was down 80% on this SportingBet venture, and now I'm back up to 40%, so I'm gaining some lost ground, and may eventually profit after the last bonus is given.

What I noticed was I was gaining ground from medium pots. The only big pots I got were the rivered monsters in multiway pots.

Anyway... Thanks! So far, so good. I'll add Couter Play to my bag of tricks.

EDIT 7/31 Finished out at 80% of my deposit plus bonus, giving me a profit on the venture. Thanks again, AOK

(I havent yet read the full counterplay post, just skimmed through)

I think it has merit though, but its really table/player dependent. I've just started playing 6max, and there my strategy changes EVERY HAND based on which players are in. I rarely see a table of players acting all the same.

Aok, you say you make 2000-3000 a month at 1/2, this breaks down to 500-800 a week?? and how many hours a week do you play to make that much?

i love the idea of this, a completely different strategy and if anything a way to mix up your play if you use it just 10-20% of the time when it feels right [super loose/laggy tables]

i am currently suffering a mean ol 6 buy-in downswing and thought of using this strat for a bit to recover from the swing and not swoop too much lower... however even tho i play .1/.2 the % plyrs to flop [10 seated] is always less than 45% normally 35-40, where you dont advocate using this strat.. but i wana soften any more blows to my br at th emo so!...

ive decided to employ this stratergy to my high pairs only, especially post flop > this should solve the problem of winning a small pot or lossing a big pot with them.

im sincerly hoping this will help reduce current vareince in my game!

good luck. the answer, big, is 2-3 hours per day on average