Cooperation between players, common?

2-5 friends sit down at the samt net-table, communicating by MSN or ICQ, and cooperates by telling one an other their hands! Maybe even splittning the earnings?!

I have never tried it, think I never will, but I can imagine it's pretty common?!
And to win at a table like this must take a miracle!

What do you think? Is it common?
Have you maybe even tried it?

I know that the sites compare all the buddylists and new player recommendations/invitations to make this kind of cheating harder, but still?!

//Ex

Mike and I play with each other on occasion, while we talk on IRC.

However, we have rules not to tell each other what we have until the hand is over or the other guy is out of the hand. On the other hand, its quite obvious that we know how each other play, and will not back down to one another.

Imagine I am in the small blind and completed, then proceed to bet out on the flop....I would say this is a dead giveaway I'm on some sort of power-draw. You usually don't have to talk to each other to have a clue what he has, just by the way he is playing his hand.

We condone all such cheating however. And if 2 or more players colluded, the profits between them would be so miniscule they are better off playing on separate tables.

I've heard of this...I play in a live game on Tuesday nights with friends from high school and college...Anyway, one dude says that in college a bunch of his buddies would play online together and talk on the phone or AIM, with some great success.

The profits weren't very good, but one of them won every single time they played....so if they played often enough I could see how they could make some money.

Edit.

It probably happens... but they still don't know what you're holding. All you can do is play the cards.

Originally Posted by DukeSoccer

It helps, me and my brother do that occasionally... try to build a pot when we have monster hands... gets us more money...

We dont have cheaters on this forum. Colluding is wrong and if I ever notice you doing it I will report you.

Originally Posted by DukeSoccer

It helps, me and my brother do that occasionally... try to build a pot when we have monster hands... gets us more money...

Say what?

I think a lot of the guys who try this aren't very good at it...

I'm sure it happens alot. To what success I don't know. All you're really doing is thinning out the list of possible outs you might have.

You still don't know what the person you're trying to scam has. They might have the monster too.

I'm sure the sites have some form of tracking available, but only do it if a complaint is made.

Hey dukesoccer, what sites do you play on and whats you and your borthers screen names there?

Just so I never have to play a scumbag family that likes to cheat people.

I know Im new to the forum and all and dont wanna come off as some tough guy but this crap pisses me off,
Sorry.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Mike and I play with each other on occasion, while we talk on IRC.

However, we have rules not to tell each other what we have until the hand is over or the other guy is out of the hand. On the other hand, its quite obvious that we know how each other play, and will not back down to one another.

Imagine I am in the small blind and completed, then proceed to bet out on the flop....I would say this is a dead giveaway I'm on some sort of power-draw. You usually don't have to talk to each other to have a clue what he has, just by the way he is playing his hand.

We condone all such cheating however. And if 2 or more players colluded, the profits between them would be so miniscule they are better off playing on separate tables.

Ok, let me get this straight. You talk to each during games, but don't tell each other what you have until after the hand.??? I have three comments on this.

1. If you are sharing information (even after the hand) that all players are not getting, I think that is cheating.
2. Are we really supposed to believe that in a NL game when one of your opponents is all-in, and each of you are considering calling, that there is no discusion taking place??

It's a bit like going to bed with your wife's hot sister and then telling your wife the next day that you didn't have sex.....Maybe not the first night, but eventually tempation will prevail. I have trouble buying this one, guys...

3. I don't believe that the profits from collusion at a short-handed tables would be miniscule. Potentialy they could be large, very large. (1)Each time colluders go heads-up againts each other, no money is lost. And I am guessing colluders would give up some rake to throw people off (2) Against a big bet colluders could confirm who has the best calling hand and call accordingly. (3) imagine the ability for the colluders to steal big pots with two all-ins in an attempt to have the others get out of the way.
(4). Or, how about when KKK flops and one of the colluders says, don't worry, I folded K4os....That information (and similar) info could be worth a fortune.


Think of it this way. How much money do you think you could make at a 6h table if you knew the pocket cards (every time) of even just one of your opponents. A solid player could make a fortune. Take that a step further and now (with collusion) you can bet, check or fold for the other player... You still don't think you could make money colluding??

Don't kid yourself, two or more colluders could make lots of money at our expense.

Personally I watch very closely when I see two players at the same table lots, especially if they are trashing each other on chat. If I don't see them tackling other players at the same time (and both staying to the river), I am very concerned. I want to see them "both" rsiky their money at the same time.

I've often wondered about collusion online. I use PokerStat to keep my hand history and it has a "check for collusion" feature. I have no idea what exactly it checks, but probably looks for re-raises then folds, or two players that never show each other down -- that sort of pattern.

I will say that if you ever suspect collusion, I would not hesitate to contact the site to report it. Let them check it out and decide. Especially if the site gets multiple complaints about the same persons, they will either tell the players they are barred from sitting at the same table...or more likely close their accounts without notice, forfeiting the players bankroll.

I would say that anyone who tries this is putting their whole bankroll at risk over what is probably a minimal advantage.

no way the site gets rid of your bankroll based off of suspected and basically unprovable collusion, worst that happens is you'd have to go to another site.

I doubt this really happens much though. Every once in a while i will see two people in a room from leftquackingvilledaleUbeñ and think twice about it, but i doubt i've ever been colluded against to any great detriment. Don't guess any of us would ever really know though would we.

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

Ok, let me get this straight. You talk to each during games, but don't tell each other what you have until after the hand.??? I have three comments on this.

1. If you are sharing information (even after the hand) that all players are not getting, I think that is cheating.
2. Are we really supposed to believe that in a NL game when one of your opponents is all-in, and each of you are considering calling, that there is no discusion taking place??

It's a bit like going to bed with your wife's hot sister and then telling your wife the next day that you didn't have sex.....Maybe not the first night, but eventually tempation will prevail. I have trouble buying this one, guys...

3. I don't believe that the profits from collusion at a short-handed tables would be miniscule. Potentialy they could be large, very large. (1)Each time colluders go heads-up againts each other, no money is lost. And I am guessing colluders would give up some rake to throw people off (2) Against a big bet colluders could confirm who has the best calling hand and call accordingly. (3) imagine the ability for the colluders to steal big pots with two all-ins in an attempt to have the others get out of the way.
(4). Or, how about when KKK flops and one of the colluders says, don't worry, I folded K4os....That information (and similar) info could be worth a fortune.


Think of it this way. How much money do you think you could make at a 6h table if you knew the pocket cards (every time) of even just one of your opponents. A solid player could make a fortune. Take that a step further and now (with collusion) you can bet, check or fold for the other player... You still don't think you could make money colluding??

Don't kid yourself, two or more colluders could make lots of money at our expense.

Personally I watch very closely when I see two players at the same table lots, especially if they are trashing each other on chat. If I don't see them tackling other players at the same time (and both staying to the river), I am very concerned. I want to see them "both" rsiky their money at the same time.

Wait, so you watch other players to see if they are colluding against you when you are the colluder yourself? This is the pot calling the kettle black. You are more than welcome to sit in with Mike and I next time we play and you'll see how we play. We do wait for the end of our hands before we say what we have because I want to take Mike's money just as much as he wants to take mine. To your points:

1) You can see everyone's hand at showdown at Party poker, and I don't gain anything from knowing what he has after he folds. I already know how he plays, he knows how I play. We go over each other's play and determine what is the best way to play that hand given the situation. Its a mutually beneficial solution to something completely legal.

2) First, we play Limit Hold'em. If i want to see what Mike has at showdown I have to pay him for it just like everyone else. Sure, I imagine he would tell me if i folded; but if he was bluffing that would just make my ass look more silly. If you really think I am lieing, search some of the hands that are posted on here that have me and him on them, MOST of the time we are chatting on IRC, and you see the results....

3) Are you colluding to make the most money? You think you could make more money that way than for learning to play for real? Give me a break.... After enough experience you can actually READ what a person has as determined by the way he bets....no need to cheat for it.

4) what? the blinds? You know the K isnt out there so raise huge and get them to fold because you know they dont have the K. Money can only go so far man before ethics takes a hold of you.

For those of you who would like a little more information on collusion and poker site security, here's a read for you http://www.pokerstars.com/security.html

I know Im new to the forum and all and dont wanna come off as some tough guy but this crap pisses me off,
Sorry.

No apology is needed. I would propose to the admins on FTR that this player should be banned and his email address sent to all poker sites with his post attached.

As for accusing Jeff of collusion, you honestly couldn't be any more wrong. He's a very legitimate player (not to mention a very good limit player). What Mike and Jeff simply do is play on the same table together and sometimes share hands and reads after the fact. All of this can be done through hand history normally, and in the player chat window as well.

It's just not as profitable as you might think. Think about it. The only time when it would save you a significant amount of money is when you have a very good hand but your colluding friend has a better (e.g. AA vs AK on a Kxx flop) and the chances of this occuring aren't that high. Any other edge (say being on a flush draw and your friend telling you he had 1 of your suit) isn't really a significant edge. I doubt colluding is really that profitable, especially since the players that would do it are generally going to be low limit players. If you played any higher limits, well, are you willing to trust your 'friend' with $3000 or something? There's no way to get that money back if he tries to screw you.

Either way colluders should be at least deported.

Originally Posted by rorix

It's just not as profitable as you might think. Think about it. The only time when it would save you a significant amount of money is when you have a very good hand but your colluding friend has a better (e.g. AA vs AK on a Kxx flop) and the chances of this occuring aren't that high. Any other edge (say being on a flush draw and your friend telling you he had 1 of your suit) isn't really a significant edge.

How about if the board pairs, and your friend tells you he folded one of those cards? Or there's a straight out there, and your friend folded one or two of the cards needed to make it? Those edges aren't significant but they add up. Particularly so if you're at a table with a bluffer who likes to stab at dangerous boards. Board pairs, you check, he bets big, and you raise him... that's useful information.

I myself have never colluded, and never want to. It takes the fun out of the game.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

How about if the board pairs, and your friend tells you he folded one of those cards? Or there's a straight out there, and your friend folded one or two of the cards needed to make it?

The odds of this happening aren't great anyway, and even if they were, you still might lose! I'm not saying it's not an edge, as IF YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE DOING when cheating, it surely would be. But 99% (warning: made up statistic) of these colluders don't know what they're doing - I remember a quote from Lee Jones that colluders on pokerstars are actually negative expectation!

I myself have never colluded, and never want to. It takes the fun out of the game.

Poker's not about fun. It's about money. I don't cheat because a) I can't find anyone I trust and b) getting your account banned or whatever the punishment is is surely too big a risk for the marginal edge you get.

let 5 or 6 people sit at a table talking to one another.. I'll take the 7th seat (thats an open challenge to anyone who would want it). The only way someone could win would be to be very very good at cheating, I wont explain how for obvious reasons. However you are losing money, 5-6 sit, making only 3-4 people to make money from, what a dumb concept, you might get a hit here and there, but you will lose in the long run.

As for people talking hands on IRC, what do you do at a live table? I'm generally very friendly with the people around me, and more often then not they start showing me their cards before the muck them, sharing their thoughts on the player who just raised, ect. Its no different.

Ok, we all agree that collusion is cheating and shouldn't be tolorated at this site. Good.

A few of your posts I think are not exposing HOW colluder's take your money. Let's get the scam out there so everyone knows what they're looking for.

You're sitting at a $3/$6 limit table.
YOU are dealt a decent little hand like JJ. Nobody knows this but you.
Two colluders at the table are sitting at your table. The one in middle position limps in after you do. But he IMs the colludee in late posion to say he has AA. The one in late position raises with 27off. You're already in for one bet so you call the raise and get re-raised by the guy who actally has the hand. Now you're in for 2 bets and looking at a third--or fourth. If you call you can expect the same pattern on the flop, etc. In this pattern it's going to cost you 2 or 3 bets for every card in a hand where you're a 4-1 underdog. Ultimately the guy with 27 will fold to a single bet as soon as you're out of it.

It's the trap-raises that get you, more so than the extra draw outs from knowledge of 2 or 4 folded cards (though this clearly has a small benefit too).

The re-re-raise-then-fold pattern you're looking for when you suspect colluders.

Originally Posted by rorix

Poker's not about fun. It's about money.

Really? Then why do most people play poker? Most people aren't winning players. Many winning players still can't support themselves with poker, and make less per hour than they do working. If poker was all about money, I wouldn't think any of that would be true. It's still a game, after all.

Collusion does happen, thats not a question. With IM technology it is just too easy and there is no perfect way to watch for it. 2 frats I know of used to all sit in the same room and cheat. I know one of them got caught and had a few thousand in earnings frozen. I think the other one got away with it.

I got my account frozen, I am embarrassed to say, for "abuse of bonus codes." I was recruiting for the affiliates program in the chat box on party, which I had no idea was disallowed. They froze my account with 1000 dollars in it. They unfroze it when I called them, but I think they do keep your money if you are caught colluding.

You dont think its possible to make big money out of cheats? a NL player can raise his own hand and his friends hands... "I have AA, raise it from the Buttom for me plz..." If a guy raise 2x as often as he should he will be called a manic, and the other cheater will be nailed as calling station. You dont think there is a lot of cash in this cheat?

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

Ok, let me get this straight. You talk to each during games, but don't tell each other what you have until after the hand.??? I have three comments on this.

1. If you are sharing information (even after the hand) that all players are not getting, I think that is cheating.
2. Are we really supposed to believe that in a NL game when one of your opponents is all-in, and each of you are considering calling, that there is no discusion taking place??

It's a bit like going to bed with your wife's hot sister and then telling your wife the next day that you didn't have sex.....Maybe not the first night, but eventually tempation will prevail. I have trouble buying this one, guys...

3. I don't believe that the profits from collusion at a short-handed tables would be miniscule. Potentialy they could be large, very large. (1)Each time colluders go heads-up againts each other, no money is lost. And I am guessing colluders would give up some rake to throw people off (2) Against a big bet colluders could confirm who has the best calling hand and call accordingly. (3) imagine the ability for the colluders to steal big pots with two all-ins in an attempt to have the others get out of the way.
(4). Or, how about when KKK flops and one of the colluders says, don't worry, I folded K4os....That information (and similar) info could be worth a fortune.


Think of it this way. How much money do you think you could make at a 6h table if you knew the pocket cards (every time) of even just one of your opponents. A solid player could make a fortune. Take that a step further and now (with collusion) you can bet, check or fold for the other player... You still don't think you could make money colluding??

Don't kid yourself, two or more colluders could make lots of money at our expense.

Personally I watch very closely when I see two players at the same table lots, especially if they are trashing each other on chat. If I don't see them tackling other players at the same time (and both staying to the river), I am very concerned. I want to see them "both" rsiky their money at the same time.

Wait, so you watch other players to see if they are colluding against you when you are the colluder yourself? This is the pot calling the kettle black. You are more than welcome to sit in with Mike and I next time we play and you'll see how we play. We do wait for the end of our hands before we say what we have because I want to take Mike's money just as much as he wants to take mine. To your points:

1) You can see everyone's hand at showdown at Party poker, and I don't gain anything from knowing what he has after he folds. I already know how he plays, he knows how I play. We go over each other's play and determine what is the best way to play that hand given the situation. Its a mutually beneficial solution to something completely legal.

2) First, we play Limit Hold'em. If i want to see what Mike has at showdown I have to pay him for it just like everyone else. Sure, I imagine he would tell me if i folded; but if he was bluffing that would just make my ass look more silly. If you really think I am lieing, search some of the hands that are posted on here that have me and him on them, MOST of the time we are chatting on IRC, and you see the results....

3) Are you colluding to make the most money? You think you could make more money that way than for learning to play for real? Give me a break.... After enough experience you can actually READ what a person has as determined by the way he bets....no need to cheat for it.

4) what? the blinds? You know the K isnt out there so raise huge and get them to fold because you know they dont have the K. Money can only go so far man before ethics takes a hold of you.

Ok. let's just aggree to disagree and leave it at that. You think that sharing info on what your hand was with your friend after the hand is over is not cheating, and I think it is not fair. For me, I don't want to play with anybody that is communicating with another opponent in any way.
(other than the plain language chat on the site that anyone at the table can read).

As far as 'calling the kettle black," I have no idea whtat you are talking about. Are you saying I'm cheating by trying to be on the lookout for cheaters...?

Think he mistook you for DukeSoccer

- sed

{This post has been removed}

FTR should do something similar.

<DukeSoccer> > DukesSoccer wins $12.50 with a Royal Flush, Hearts
[12:39] <DukeSoccer> took 2 years
[12:40] <BigRed`> cool, what did ur brother think of that hand?
[12:40] <DukeSoccer> ?
[12:40] <BigRed`> http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=6445
[12:41] <DukeSoccer> oh, he wasnt on the table... we play different limits now
[12:42] <dwarfman> 'It helps, me and my brother do that occasionally... try to build a pot when we have monster hands... gets us more money...'
[12:42] <dwarfman> might wanna edit that, sounds kinda dodgy
[12:42] <BigRed`> I think it sounds illegal.
[12:42] <DukeSoccer> it is illegal
[12:43] <DukeSoccer> but the site i play at cant catch it
[12:43] <dwarfman> just should warn you that some FTR people are firmly against colluding, if you want to keep your reputation i suggest removing the post
[12:43] <BigRed`> Ohhh, why didn't u say so. That makes it perfectly fine...
[12:43] <BigRed`> I'
[12:43] <dwarfman> i'm against colluding too, but i don't like confrontation
[12:44] <DukeSoccer> haha, aight, well thought id give my 2 cents on it since there was a post... but i removed it
[12:44] <dwarfman> good job
[12:44] <dwarfman> oh and don't collude
[12:44] <dwarfman> ever
[12:44] <dwarfman> again
[12:44] <dwarfman> it's bad
[12:45] <BigRed`> Only if you get caught apparently, dwarfman.
[12:45] <DukeSoccer> it was only once, and we did it to take down a guy that was going all in every hand
[12:45] <BigRed`> All these years I've been following this weird guidline called morals.
[12:45] <soupie> that doesnt make it right
[12:45] <BigRed`> And to think.
[12:45] <DukeSoccer> pshhh morals are over rated
[12:45] <BigRed`> I was wrong.
[12:45] <hyper-zzz> http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...613&highlight=
[12:45] <DukeSoccer> never said it was right
[12:45] * soupie sets mode: +b *!*@CPE-65-30-174-201.wi.rr.com
[12:45] <hyper-zzz> "You go all-in"
[12:45] <hyper-zzz> hahahahaha
[12:46] * DukeSoccer was kicked by soupie (we just dont need you here, sorry)
[12:46] <dwarfman> thanks soup