Confessions Of A Donkey - the secret of my success

I had a really bad downswing lately. $100+ at 5NL, and I finally realized why. I suck! But I used to suck a lot less than the players I played against when I had my winning streaks of 10 buy-ins a session, and the reason couldn't be more obvious: weekends!
I used to always play exclusively on weekends and almost not at all during the week. A month ago I had some time to play during the week, and just kept loosing. It was a bit of variance too I hope.
Now I'm playing on a Saturday evening again, and oh boy... You know spending a saturday at home playing poker online spells looser right there, but it couldn't be more literally true. I don't have to do anything here, I'm just waiting for them to give me money.
The difference is just unreal. During the week I constantly leave tables because it folded to the BB a couple of times at FR. And now there's half the table seeing every flop! This is on PartyPoker.
So anyway... if you suck, but you want to beat a game every once in a while: saturday night... 5NL... un-not-beatable!
You obviously have to know how to exploit aggression and calling stations, and you shouldn't be too emotional about bad beats, but if you can then this is a freakin' goldmine.

Had the same experience as you. If your non American playing at iPoker is a goldmine. Only playing 4NL at the moment and my bankroll is about $100. Signed up to the free $10 deposit there with the bonus plus have another bonus running on there as well. All evenings there are pretty easy though, but especially weekends liek you said.

Originally Posted by oskar

So anyway... if you suck, but you want to beat a game every once in a while: saturday night... 5NL... un-not-beatable!

I would suggest studying harder so you can have an edge at all the microstakes games. This will also give you an even bigger edge over the weekend donks. Much better than just settling for playing against the weekend donks and winning occasionally.

During the week I constantly leave tables because it folded to the BB a couple of times at FR.

One solution to some of your issues as a player would probably be resolved by re-reading this statement and figuring out what you can do about it.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

During the week I constantly leave tables because it folded to the BB a couple of times at FR.

One solution to some of your issues as a player would probably be resolved by re-reading this statement and figuring out what you can do about it.

Raise from HJ and CO with a wider range?

Like 27o+

Just so we're clear here, wouldn't this be an adjustment? The same type of "adjustment" that people suggest so vociferously that we should never, ever make at micros, because we don't need to? Instead of exercising "table selection" which is what the OP is referring to?

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

During the week I constantly leave tables because it folded to the BB a couple of times at FR.

One solution to some of your issues as a player would probably be resolved by re-reading this statement and figuring out what you can do about it.

Raise from HJ and CO with a wider range?

Like 27o+

Only if BB has a low VPIP
if he's like 30/20 there's a good reason it gets folded to him

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Just so we're clear here, wouldn't this be an adjustment? The same type of "adjustment" that people suggest so vociferously that we should never, ever make at micros, because we don't need to? Instead of exercising "table selection" which is what the OP is referring to?

When has anyone ever said not to make adjustments if you know what adjustment needs to be made? Sure, you don't need to get FPS, but if you know the blinds are tight, then you can start opening a wider range from BU/CO and begin exploiting their weaknesses. The only reason most people stress a solid ABC game for microstakes players is because alot don't know how to correctly adjust, and don't play well when they do. But I've never read "play ABC poker" as don't exploit your opponents weaknesses. And this is clearly the case.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Just so we're clear here, wouldn't this be an adjustment? The same type of "adjustment" that people suggest so vociferously that we should never, ever make at micros, because we don't need to? Instead of exercising "table selection" which is what the OP is referring to?

When has anyone ever said not to make adjustments if you know what adjustment needs to be made? Sure, you don't need to get FPS, but if you know the blinds are tight, then you can start opening a wider range from BU/CO and begin exploiting their weaknesses. The only reason most people stress a solid ABC game for microstakes players is because alot don't know how to correctly adjust, and don't play well when they do. But I've never read "play ABC poker" as don't exploit your opponents weaknesses. And this is clearly the case.

I understand and agree with you 100% but I've been told on multiple occasions (Spoonitnow, Marshall28, BigSpenda, Jyms) That I shouldn't be adjusting because it looks like FPS, when in all reality I'm pretty positive that the adjustment I was trying to make was correct.

Maybe I am that poor of a player, and I'm not smart enough to adjust to my game and that's why I'm being told personally not to adjust. Or maybe the adjustments I'm making are overbroad. I was half joking with opening any two cards from CO if the table is uber tight. You should certainly open your range, but that's kinda silly.

But I have a feeling that the stock answer is what gets spewed around here when it's not 100% correct, and then when a little bit different answer is given, you're going to have guys like me who are a little confused, and a little frustrated that we're seeing contradicting analysis coming out of different players mouths, and both contend that they are correct.

I'd be wary of adjusting too much while multi-tabling
after a while you might start raising anyone with crap cards especially if you've been picking up the blinds on the other tables and you don't notice the guy on the this table is a loose fish

Originally Posted by iopq

I'd be wary of adjusting too much while multi-tabling
after a while you might start raising anyone with crap cards especially if you've been picking up the blinds on the other tables and you don't notice the guy on the this table is a loose fish

Maybe I'm wrong, but if that's the case, play less tables imo.

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

Originally Posted by iopq

I'd be wary of adjusting too much while multi-tabling
after a while you might start raising anyone with crap cards especially if you've been picking up the blinds on the other tables and you don't notice the guy on the this table is a loose fish

Maybe I'm wrong, but if that's the case, play less tables imo.

I only play 6-9 tables I don't 24 table or anything crazy like that

Although I had to e-mail FTP support to increase my table limit lol since default is 8

But definitely I have it under control, I have time to look up the stats and everything

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Just so we're clear here, wouldn't this be an adjustment? The same type of "adjustment" that people suggest so vociferously that we should never, ever make at micros, because we don't need to? Instead of exercising "table selection" which is what the OP is referring to?

There are certain types of adjustments that are good and others that are bad at micros. The point of the generalizations is that a tight-aggressive game can beat the crap out of microstakes players while you incrementally learn how to make proper adjustments.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

During the week I constantly leave tables because it folded to the BB a couple of times at FR.

One solution to some of your issues as a player would probably be resolved by re-reading this statement and figuring out what you can do about it.

Raise from HJ and CO with a wider range?

Like 27o+

Only if BB has a low VPIP
if he's like 30/20 there's a good reason it gets folded to him

Ragnar4's response is one possibility, but there are others.

The chance of all players left to act staying in the hand are equally important when considering fold equity, not just the big blind. If there are players left to act with position on you, the chances that they stay in the hand are actually more important than the players left to act without position on you since the impact on the EV of your raise is impacted more when someone calls in position.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

During the week I constantly leave tables because it folded to the BB a couple of times at FR.

One solution to some of your issues as a player would probably be resolved by re-reading this statement and figuring out what you can do about it.

Leave the table? Seriously, I'm not sitting there just waiting to steal 6 cent worth of blinds from the button and CO if the opportunity arises. Sure I can loosen up, but that puts me in a terrible spot if I get called. I guess it's exploitable but nowhere near as exploitable as calling stations and maniacs. Frankly I expect a good number of bots being active there. I can't imagine a real person sitting down at 5NL and not playing a hand for 5 orbits.
It's also really bad for FPS. I had a guy to my right a week or so ago who always opened for 20c, and he opened about 5-10% of his hands. I 3-bet him twice and he layed it down. After that I just 3-bet him with any 2 cards and he gave up every single time. It worked out that time, but overall I'd rather just try to play solid poker.

There's a player in NL10 that plays 0% of his hands
it has to be some kind of a refer-a-friend scam or something

Originally Posted by oskar

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

During the week I constantly leave tables because it folded to the BB a couple of times at FR.

One solution to some of your issues as a player would probably be resolved by re-reading this statement and figuring out what you can do about it.

Leave the table? Seriously, I'm not sitting there just waiting to steal 6 cent worth of blinds from the button and CO if the opportunity arises. Sure I can loosen up, but that puts me in a terrible spot if I get called. I guess it's exploitable but nowhere near as exploitable as calling stations and maniacs. Frankly I expect a good number of bots being active there. I can't imagine a real person sitting down at 5NL and not playing a hand for 5 orbits.
It's also really bad for FPS. I had a guy to my right a week or so ago who always opened for 20c, and he opened about 5-10% of his hands. I 3-bet him twice and he layed it down. After that I just 3-bet him with any 2 cards and he gave up every single time. It worked out that time, but overall I'd rather just try to play solid poker.

I thought I'd do something nice for you and put in bold each part of your response that I thought was way, way, way off in one way or another.

The general theme that you seem to be missing is that loosening up on the types of tables mentioned is not hard, it's not an insignificant adjustment, and it's not fancy, nor does it put you in a terrible spot if you are called. It simply applies some pressure to the boundaries of your comfort zone, and that's why you automatically have the negative reaction to it.

Originally Posted by oskar

......... Sure I can loosen up, but that puts me in a terrible spot if I get called...............

Why?
If the table is as rediculous tight as you are saying can you venture a guess at how often your c-bets will work?(hint:alot) It's not hard to sit at a table like that, and just watch your money go up.

IMOBUTIMAFISHSO....

The problem I seem to have is how much to loosen up. I think a reasonable balance was to open raise about 30% of my hands. But it's also not so easy for me to switch gears soon enough when the game starts to loosen up. I also think I lost a significant amount of money not being able to lay down TPGK for 1/4 PSB on all streets, when I already knew that that was the standard bet for this guy and he hadn't played a hand in ages. Or I stacked off with overpairs against guys who did nothing but call my raises every now and then and give up on 9 out of 10 flops but push all in on one although I guess I should be putting them on a set and fold my overpair. This gets significantly harder with more tables and I can't keep track of all the nutcampers.
I think there's a thread from last month where I said maybe I should just stop calling altogether - that was why. As long as I keep betting I seem to be fine. During the week if one of them can summon up the courage to put out a bet they usually have a very strong hand.


But no matter how well I play, or how good I run, I can never come anywhere near the profit margin of the weekend sessions.

If somebody wants to make a thread or video on how to beat an extremely tight-passive FR game... I'm all for it.

How can you NOT keep track of all the nutcampers.

When someone has stats like 10/7... what do you think they're doing?

I call very infrequently EXCEPT I call down shortstackers with like anything lol
that and I sometimes call bluffs when I feel like I'm ahead of their range but that's super read dependent

Originally Posted by oskar

The problem I seem to have is how much to loosen up. I think a reasonable balance was to open raise about 30% of my hands. But it's also not so easy for me to switch gears soon enough when the game starts to loosen up.

What's your attempt to steal? Tell me here or in a PM. I might use you as an example in an updated version of my blind stealing post.

Originally Posted by oskar

The problem I seem to have is how much to loosen up. I think a reasonable balance was to open raise about 30% of my hands. But it's also not so easy for me to switch gears soon enough when the game starts to loosen up. I also think I lost a significant amount of money not being able to lay down TPGK for 1/4 PSB on all streets, when I already knew that that was the standard bet for this guy and he hadn't played a hand in ages. Or I stacked off with overpairs against guys who did nothing but call my raises every now and then and give up on 9 out of 10 flops but push all in on one although I guess I should be putting them on a set and fold my overpair. This gets significantly harder with more tables and I can't keep track of all the nutcampers.
I think there's a thread from last month where I said maybe I should just stop calling altogether - that was why. As long as I keep betting I seem to be fine. During the week if one of them can summon up the courage to put out a bet they usually have a very strong hand.


But no matter how well I play, or how good I run, I can never come anywhere near the profit margin of the weekend sessions.

If somebody wants to make a thread or video on how to beat an extremely tight-passive FR game... I'm all for it.

I deffinately see what you are saying. I mean, it's hard enough sometimes to adjust to a table, not to mention adjust as the table does. Perhaps play less tables, for the time being I mean. I don't really look at what % of hands I'm opening. Imean. Perhaps I should, but I usually play in much more read dependantly. Isolating Limpers w/ Broadways and then some(again, read dependant) is a great thing. And as Spoon said Blind Stealing. I think the point is, learn to expoit all of these characteristics now. Imean. I feel confident against the nits and against the maniacs/callstations etc. but what about when we get to higher limits? Good LAGG players are going to rip us apart if we don't learn to play all types of players. AGAIN, I know I'm a fish, so all this is hopefully reviewd by spoon or some other good player reading this thread.

Originally Posted by iopq

How can you NOT keep track of all the nutcampers.

When someone has stats like 10/7... what do you think they're doing?

I never used a HUD, and I don't want to use one. I play 2-6 tables... mostly 4 speed tables (10 sec. reaction time) - that and remembering 40 players can be pretty tough. I keep track of most players... I've been gradually adding tables over 18 months now.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

What's your attempt to steal? Tell me here or in a PM. I might use you as an example in an updated version of my blind stealing post.

Assuming a worst-case scenario table where everybody is ridiculously tight. I raise QJ+, 55+ UTG, and loosen up considerably closer to the button. If I get one player to the flop I will c-bet every time if checked to me about 3/4 of the pot on dry flops, 1/2 the pot on paired boards, and closer to pot on draw heavy boards. That is assuming that they fold easily to c-bets of course. Out of position, I will still c-bet most flops with the exception of 3 cards higher than a T. If they check behind, I will bet the turn 100% of the time.
I continue doing that until someone plays back, or if they don't fold enough to make this profitable... which is pretty easy to figure out.

After a while there usually are one or two players per table who start playing back at me... I have to remember those guys and just hope to catch some cards against them and get them to make heroic calls.

I am unable to lay down TPTK unless the board is very ugly, that's a leak at these tables that I'm very aware of. It's a psychological thing I guess. If I steal pretty much every pot that I'm in, and someone raises me and I have a hand I have a hard time giving them credit for a monster although I know there's little chance that they would play back with less than TPTK.
I just can't believe how people can get moved out of so many pots when playing back at me is so goddamn cheap. It's a 5$ table. Why aren't more people putting me to the test - I don't get it.
That's where the bot comment comes in. I don't see how a real person can sit down at 5NL in his free time and play nothing but AQs+... it doesn't make sense.

I only have time to play on the weekends anyway, so for the time being I'm good. But no matter how well I play at the tight tables I can't possibly make nearly as much as I do during the happy hours. My stats for the first 10k hands when I installed PT was almost 8BB/100... then I started playing during the week... now it's at a very sad 2,5/100 and the trial is about to run out.
They are definitely beatable, but it's frustrating even if I'm winning.

Okay that's cool, but what's your attempt to steal?

Ok, apparently I don't understand the question.
What is my what again? Could you rephrase that?

Your attempt to steal is how often you open the pot when it's folded to you in either the Co, Bu, or SB. Most individuals will suggest that at FR your ats (attempt to steal) should be around 30% or so.

And you saying you don't want to sit around for just an opportunity to steal the blinds is incredibly misguided. Stealing blinds is so incredibly profitable that you should take advantage of it when you get the chance.

And I'm not going to dispute with you whether playing during the week or during the weekend is more profitable. Everyone knows that on the weekends the drunkards are in full force ready to take their shot. It's apparent the number of fish increase on the weekends and after work hours during the week. However, your concern while at the micros shouldn't be to make the most money as possible so you can get up to higher stakes. It should be to improve as a player and understand the game more fully, and that generally means not running from a situation in which you can't win, but instead learning how to win in that situation.

I'm on linux right now so I can't check PT... Probably more than 30% I won't raise with air, but I will loosen up considerably.
I don't really consider it stealing raising up a top 30% range on the button when it folded to me... I'm likely to have the best hand, and more importantly I have position. Who says you can't make a bet on position?

Change to 6-max .

Adjustments are good. Whacky way off the charts ridiculous adjustments are probably bad.

I personally have no problem with leaving a table full of rocks. Sure it might be beatable, but rarely can I not find a table with at least one ATM to target instead. Why make micros harder than they need to be.

Originally Posted by oskar

I'm on linux right now so I can't check PT... Probably more than 30% I won't raise with air, but I will loosen up considerably.
I don't really consider it stealing raising up a top 30% range on the button when it folded to me... I'm likely to have the best hand, and more importantly I have position. Who says you can't make a bet on position?

It's a steal for statistical purposes regardless of what hand you hold.

But if you do it 30% of the time you might as well do it with the top 30% of your range. I won't "steal" with T3, 72 type hands. 89, K8... is good enough. Otherwise I'd be raising it up every time it folded to me. That seems too loose even to me. Am I wrong?

I'd much rather play 6 Max! There are no 6 max tables below 25NL at PartyPoker unfortunately. I try to get as much short-handed play as possible, but the tables fill up quickly.

Originally Posted by oskar

But if you do it 30% of the time you might as well do it with the top 30% of your range. I won't "steal" with T3, 72 type hands. 89, K8... is good enough. Otherwise I'd be raising it up every time it folded to me. That seems too loose even to me. Am I wrong?

I'd much rather play 6 Max! There are no 6 max tables below 25NL at PartyPoker unfortunately. I try to get as much short-handed play as possible, but the tables fill up quickly.

If you decide you should open raise 30% of the time, then you should pick the best-performing 30% of hands in terms of value obviously. This can be extended to other things as well.

On the other hand, it's probably better to look to your left when you're in steal situations. Often I'll have players on my left that I'll raise nearly any two cards into because it's +EV.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Change to 6-max .

Adjustments are good. Whacky way off the charts ridiculous adjustments are probably bad.

I personally have no problem with leaving a table full of rocks. Sure it might be beatable, but rarely can I not find a table with at least one ATM to target instead. Why make micros harder than they need to be.

I don't mean to be arguementative. I really don't. But to asnwer your question. Because over the coarse of at the VERY MOST a session(2 Hours for me) I will be up at least a BI at that table. Small pots at tables like that. isolating, stealing. and some well placed moves postflop. Sure it's not v betting stations, or getting it in against Maniacs. But it's Money. But that's just my opinion. the opinion of a big fat fish.

Well if a table full of rocks sees 100 hands per hour, and you can make at least a buyin in at most 2 hrs, then you're cracking over 25ptbb/100 and you should probably table select to play only v's rocks.

Originally Posted by oskar

I'm not sitting there just waiting to steal 6 cent worth of blinds from the button and CO if the opportunity arises.

Stealing the blinds from the CO/BTN w/ almost any two is ++++EV compared to your typical earn rate for AK, 88 and lots of other premium hands. Sometimes you get called, and you get to play for 4 bb's worth of villain's money, with position. :P

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by oskar

I'm not sitting there just waiting to steal 6 cent worth of blinds from the button and CO if the opportunity arises.

Stealing the blinds from the CO/BTN w/ almost any two is ++++EV compared to your typical earn rate for AK, 88 out of position and lots of other premium hands. Sometimes you get called, and you get to play for 4 bb's worth of villain's money, with position. :P

Imo.

Imo is "In my opinion"
And FTW is "for the win"?
right?
So Imo in that case is like "I agree" ?

The thing is that people are very aware of that. I think if anything the micro stakes players are WAY overprotecting their blinds, so I'd rather be ahead of a random range at least.
I think the variance is just way higher. If your opponents are able to lay down TPTK, then you're making most of your money stealing, but it also increases the variance that monster-vs-monster hands create. If you can't extract more than 25bb out of a top pair vs TPTK hand, then the times you stack off with set under set or overpair against set hurt much more.
I just wanted to record a short session, but the screen capture program crashed. After half an hour I was up 2 buy-ins after stacking a couple of retards, after that I lost every big pot that I was in, the blinds started defending with air while the tables stayed mindnumbingly passive, and I went out with a 1$ profit.
I'll really just avoid playing these. If you haven't played micros in half a year - check it out for yourself on a weekday. Just a year ago there was much more action... and there's also a lot more action in the higher stakes - got myself up to 25NL a couple of months ago.
I always say I don't mind playing bad players... I'll change that to I don't mind playing loose bad players.
It's just nervewrecking to make your chips almost exclusively stealing. I had QQ twice today, AA three times - and I got called with one of them once and took it down on the flop.
Where's the fun in that?

Spoon added three words in bold (out of position) to my comment. The IMO (yes, means "in my opinion") in bold meant that he thought my comment was only true if we're talking about AK and 88 oop.

This:

Originally Posted by oskar

I think if anything the micro stakes players are WAY overprotecting their blinds, so I'd rather be ahead of a random range at least.

and this:

Originally Posted by oskar

It's just nervewrecking to make your chips almost exclusively stealing. I had QQ twice today, AA three times - and I got called with one of them once and took it down on the flop.

How can they both be true simultaneously?

Originally Posted by oskar

If you haven't played micros in half a year - check it out for yourself on a weekday. Just a year ago there was much more action... and there's also a lot more action in the higher stakes - got myself up to 25NL a couple of months ago.

I play 10nl every night. Weekends are looser - but higher variance, too. But you can table select your way to good tables on a week night. I open up tables, view the individual players stats, and then leave if it sucks. A table can be good with just a couple known bad players with sufficient stacks on my right. The bad players are still there. In bulk.

And you can still beat the nittier games while you're table selecting for loose ones.

They can both be true at the same time because it did not get them on the Button CO of SB with no limpers when I got them.

Originally Posted by oskar

They can both be true at the same time because it did not get them on the Button CO of SB with no limpers when I got them.

Suppose you play AA for a raise from MP 5 times, and it folds around the table on 4 of them. There are other hands you could be opening for raises and making money with, like 720. They don't know what you have until show down.

But that presumes you're right about extremely nitty tables fiercely fighting in defense of their blinds. I've never seen it. Nitty players tend to be pretty nitty in the blinds, too. Imo.

Try 2-barreling you're blind steals if they're calling too much. You have position and can pick some juicy spots.

Originally Posted by Robb

Spoon added three words in bold (out of position) to my comment. The IMO (yes, means "in my opinion") in bold meant that he thought my comment was only true if we're talking about AK and 88 oop.

To clarify, AK and 88 will perform better than trash IP, but trash IP is closer to AK/88 OOP. It was really just a comment to note how we have position in most blind steal hands when we're called.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by oskar

They can both be true at the same time because it did not get them on the Button CO of SB with no limpers when I got them.

Suppose you play AA for a raise from MP 5 times, and it folds around the table on 4 of them. There are other hands you could be opening for raises and making money with, like 720. They don't know what you have until show down.

But that presumes you're right about extremely nitty tables fiercely fighting in defense of their blinds. I've never seen it. Nitty players tend to be pretty nitty in the blinds, too. Imo.

Try 2-barreling you're blind steals if they're calling too much. You have position and can pick some juicy spots.

I do all that, and that part of the equation works out. My problem is the big hands. I rarely ever get involved in a big pot, and when I do I either caught a lucky fish, or we both have very strong hands. I just tried it again today... had a couple of key hands. Stacked some guys with sets and straights... but had 5 coolers and eventually ended the session being down 3 buy-ins.
It's just variance hell. At one point I had a guy heads-up who folded to my minraises, and made it 50c to go every 10 minutes. Made a dollar from him. *wheeeeeeeee*