Completing SB when folded to

I stopped doing that and only raise/fold now. Is there any merit in completing? Those 3:1 odds always seem tempting..

I raise almost every time. Sometimes I complete and lead any flop for mixing it up. I really, really want to get that guy's 0.50$.

Recently my thinking has been like this:

By completing: You USUALLY see a flop. by min betting the flop, you USUALLY get a fold. This has been working good recently.

I almost always raise or fold in this spot, and I probably fold more then most.

While I do complete sometimes (usually against passive players), it's just difficult to play with a trashy hand, out of position, with so much money behind in relation to the pot and no inititive.

I'll usually complete it unless I have a horrible hand. Then if I dont hit 2 pair or better I'll just check/fold. I mix it up a little but thats my usual play.

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Recently my thinking has been like this:

By completing: You USUALLY see a flop. by min betting the flop, you USUALLY get a fold. This has been working good recently.

I do this all the time and it works like a charm. Take initiative and unless they've hit a real hand they'll smack the fold button over and over and over and over...

Originally Posted by Lukie

I almost always raise or fold in this spot, and I probably fold more then most.

While I do complete sometimes (usually against passive players), it's just difficult to play with a trashy hand, out of position, with so much money behind in relation to the pot and no inititive.

Leak

It only takes a few orbits SB vs BB to notice if you get autorased when you complete the SB. If not, then you should never fold your SB when everyone folds to you, only options are call or raise against a non aggressve opponent, hand values are indeed that close.

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Originally Posted by Lukie

I almost always raise or fold in this spot, and I probably fold more then most.

While I do complete sometimes (usually against passive players), it's just difficult to play with a trashy hand, out of position, with so much money behind in relation to the pot and no inititive.

Leak

It only takes a few orbits SB vs BB to notice if you get autorased when you complete the SB. If not, then you should never fold your SB when everyone folds to you, only options are call or raise against a non aggressve opponent, hand values are indeed that close.

Can you give me a quick synopsis of why you feel this way?

I really disagree to be honest...

You can preach 3:1 all you want, but the horrid reverse implied odds of playing absolute garbage out of position with a ton of money behind is far more important then the almost meaningless pot odds in this spot.

I'll admit, one of my favorite plays against weak players is open-completing the SB then potting any flop. So transparent though...

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Originally Posted by Lukie

I almost always raise or fold in this spot, and I probably fold more then most.

While I do complete sometimes (usually against passive players), it's just difficult to play with a trashy hand, out of position, with so much money behind in relation to the pot and no inititive.

Leak

It only takes a few orbits SB vs BB to notice if you get autorased when you complete the SB. If not, then you should never fold your SB when everyone folds to you, only options are call or raise against a non aggressve opponent, hand values are indeed that close.

Can you give me a quick synopsis of why you feel this way?

Because most opponents are terrible heads up. If your opponents is a capable player then fold your junkhands.

I think this is more of a full table vs 6 max thing.

Full table, many opponents fold here too often, so you may as well grab the free money. They probably have other tables waiting and don't bother blowing braincells fighting a blind battle against TAgg.

In 6-max, opponents will defend here a lot and make good use of position against you. By keeping the pot small, you maximize their mistake of giving too much action. Also, you can generally just raise up your best hands and expect them to still give you action.

i love folding sb when folded to me the first few times if i don t see any great cards. Even unaware usually interperate this as "ooh he's tight". then carnage ensues.

What I have been doing/trying lately. That so far seems to be working. Completing the BB with just about anything. Hoping to hit atleast 2 pair. Then making a 3/4 to pot size bet no matter what the flop is. No matter if I hit or not. Sometimes opponent just folds. If they call. I'll play the hand slow. I'll make about 1/2 pot bet on the turn thats with nothing. If I make a pair on the turn and I think they are weak or on a draw. I'll make a 3/4 or more bet. At the river if I think I'm in the lead or opponent missed a draw. I'll try to take the pot, but I never make any real big bets. If I make 2 pair or better I'll figure I am in the lead and play accordingly.

If my opponent raises PF and I have a junk to mediocre hand I'll fold. Anytime my opponent raises and I didnt make atleast 2 pair with a bad PF hand. I'll fold.

The results I expect, from this play, and so far it had been working. Is I have the possibility to win the hand straight up. But if I lose a hand that I raised then folded to a re-raise. Or that went to show down and I had nothing or a bad pair and lost. That makes it look like that I just automatically raise the Flop after calling from the SB. And that if they raise me I'll fold, or I'll try to steal the pot with a bad hand. Even if I lose, I am, controling the betting. I am setting the price for my draws. I play the hand as cheap as possible. Until I am sure I'm in the lead. If opponent raises I fold. Worst case the hand cost me 4-8 BBs.

When I get a good hand in that situtation. I'll play pretty much the same. Except I'll raise a little more on the flop. But not to much to make my opponent think it is any different than the other hands. (If it is a draw heavy board though I'll try to take it down there.) And this time I'll also call his raise. Then (as long as Im in the lead, and theres no draws)I'll make atleast a 3/4 to pot size bet on the Turn. I'll Call or reraise a raise. Same with the River. If I'm still in the lead I'll try to get as of his money in the pot as I can.

Basically playing my bad SB hands that way. I can either get a cheap draw for a win. Or at wosrt lose a few BBs. At the same time I set my opponent up for action when I get a good hand. So far it had been profitable. I am guessing it should always work. Unless you just had a long run of bad hands and couldnt catch any draws.

Like I said I have only been trying this for a little while. Its been working, but I would to hear what people think about the long term profitabilty of this play. BTW sorry such a long post. I do that alot.

semi-hijack above

semi-hijack above

Sorta I guess. Sorry about that. Just a little bit after I posted my responce to completing the SB. I had this series of hands. Which except that I wasnt in the SB. It played out almost exactly like I had said in the previous post about my play after completing the SB (a strategy that I have been testing out.) Since it happened so soon after my 1st post. I thought it would be a good example to show.

This whole debate is really hard to adress simply due to the enormous discrepancy in different opponents' play in these spots. For example, otherwise tight, good players may give you far less trouble then the otherwise fishy calling station that gives way too much action, for obvoius reasons.

I will say this however, when somebody is sitting on my right and open completes, it's pretty much an auto-raise unless my hand is hopeless. At the risk of sounding too arrogant, anybody who thinks they can consistently limp/call trash and then play in a raised pot against me OOP in this spot and still get the best of it... is wrong, dead wrong.

Originally Posted by Lukie

I will say this however, when somebody is sitting on my right and open completes, it's pretty much an auto-raise unless my hand is hopeless. At the risk of sounding too arrogant, anybody who thinks they can consistently limp/call trash and then play in a raised pot against me OOP in this spot and still get the best of it... is wrong, dead wrong.

I find this to be very good advice. There are way too many times I will just check a hand like J10+ when the SB open completes.

Good post.

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

I stopped doing that and only raise/fold now. Is there any merit in completing? Those 3:1 odds always seem tempting..

Yah, ive stopped it recently too. What's you're raising range against an unknown? 77+ A9+ K9+ QT+?

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

I stopped doing that and only raise/fold now. Is there any merit in completing? Those 3:1 odds always seem tempting..

Yah, ive stopped it recently too. What's you're raising range against an unknown? 77+ A9+ K9+ QT+?

Any pair, Axs, A8o+, K9+, Q9+, 98s+, JTo+.

Originally Posted by Lukie

I almost always raise or fold in this spot, and I probably fold more then most.

While I do complete sometimes (usually against passive players), it's just difficult to play with a trashy hand, out of position, with so much money behind in relation to the pot and no inititive.

Lukie, just curious, what kind of numbers do you have in the blinds regarding VP$IP, PFR and BB/hand over a large sample? Just to get a feel for how your approach is working out for you.

I've changed my SB play from 63K hands at 41/11, -9ptbb/100; to 42K at 22/11, -15ptbb/100 (this is all 200/400NL).

I guess I lose some value by folding T8s/K7o/J8o/etc versus passive players.

@ugly ed: I don't think getting action on your straight has anything to do with you trying to steal pots previously. Villain made his straight on the turn, reraised your lame drawing bet, you called without correct odds and rivered the higher straight. Nothing is special about the way you played this hand, you really just called villains bets and got lucky on the river.

At the turn you already had half your stack in the pot with 8 outs, so you had a 16% chance to hit your card. More than 80 percent of the time you would have lost that hand after the turn, losing half you stack.

Ed,

The open limps in EP with A4o and QTo are pretty atrocious.

Originally Posted by Lukie

I'll admit, one of my favorite plays against weak players is open-completing the SB then potting any flop. So transparent though...

I've never really tried doing this all that much, but today I played for ~1500 hands and I think I won on the flop about 95% of the time... this is really really good advice against weak/passive bb's.

Oh and I usually raise or fold if it's folded to me in the SB, but it depends on the opponent. Vs those who actively defend I fold a bit more often or will limp on occasion with like a small suited ace or suited connector and then bet any flop. I still raise all of my good hands though regardless.

And like Lukie I rarely ever let anybody limp into my BB unless my hand is hopeless. I raise any pair, any SC, any ace, anything that isn't like 93o (and even sometimes a hand like that if my opponent loves to call and fold to a flop bet).

Damn your right knoedel
I had that go down right after I made my post, and thought cool I have a good example. I didnt even look at the hand close enough. I got the image I wanted. It does work though (against the right opponents) I've done this and had people call me down. Large bets to, with just middle pair.

Ed,

The open limps in EP with A4o and QTo are pretty atrocious.

Yea you are right. I dont usually do this. Its a play that I am testing out. Ive been experimenting with alot of different things lately. Trying different ideas I have and what other people here say to do.

I had been at this table for quite awhile and playing my usual tight game, and getting very little action. I thought it would be a good time to try this. At the least it would loosen up my image. So like I had said I limp anything and make about a pot size bet on any Flop.

Generally my normal game I would say if anything I play to tight. Yesterday I had pockets As 3 times and made a whole 5$. This was just with 4XBB PF raises. 2x the whole table Folded PF. 1 hand went to the Flop with 1 opponent. I made a pot size bet and he Folded.

I'll admit, one of my favorite plays against weak players is open-completing the SB then potting any flop. So transparent though...

I've never really tried doing this all that much, but today I played for ~1500 hands and I think I won on the flop about 95% of the time... this is really really good advice against weak/passive bb's.

Like Lukie and givememyleg said it does work against weak or passive players. I guess that is the main thing, who you are playing. Limping anything and then betting any Flop against tight or passive/weak players will get you alot of small pots. This helps pay for the times you raise the Flop with nothing and then are reraised and have to Fold. If you have done this enough times to where people start seeing that you are just auto raising the Flop everytime. They will start playing back at you and when you DO have a hand you are much more likely to get paid.