Cash Tables or Single Table Tourneys?

Which do you guys recommend for making profit in the long-term?
I've been playing for over a month now and am mostly playing $10 Tournaments and getting ITM about 7 out of 10 times but i'm seriously considering playing $0.50/$1 cash tables to maximise profit.

I suppose its really personal preference buy I've come like the sit and gos much more. I made an initial deposit of $50 a month or so ago and spent most of that playing cash games and learning OL poker. I was up for awhile but quickly pissed it away. Alot of my money was pissed away playing limit poker which I learned the hard way is much much different then NL poker.

I lost the last of my initial deposit when I had only $10 left and I was dealt pocket queens on the button. I went all in because noone else had called. BB called my $10 with 9-4 off suite. I was exstatic when I saw his cards only to quickly be knocked down by the cards that came. He caught a 9 on the flop and turn was a 4 and he beat me with two pair.

I have since made another deposit and play mostly Sit and Go's and I am now up $20. Its taken me longer but I am also getting more playing time for my money. I much prefer playing home games and in the casino and I think the sit and gos are much better practice then the OL cash games. This is just my oppinion and I am by now means a great poker player. Someone here will probably have a better answer for you than me.

Originally Posted by holdem_newbie

Which do you guys recommend for making profit in the long-term?
I've been playing for over a month now and am mostly playing $10 Tournaments and getting ITM about 7 out of 10 times but i'm seriously considering playing $0.50/$1 cash tables to maximise profit.

it depends on your playstyle. from the looks of it, you seem relatively successful at SnGs atm. are you finishing just ITM? lots of 4th place finishes? 1st place finishes? whats your ROI%?

i'm not quite sure, but i think the general profit ladder is as follows:

SnG<Ring<MTT
(depending on your ROI in SnGs, however, it can be quickly flipped to...)
Ring<SnG<MTT

the way i look at it is.....i think we all strive to become a MTT winner someday. personally, i feel SnG offers alot of beneficial training for MTTs you may play in the future. just that alone should justifiy accepting a lower profit to pay for your "learning tax". there are still plenty of great players that choose to play ring, however, so it really comes down to which one you enjoy more.

also, i would recommend for you to read the sticky "Newbie's Circle of Death" in the beginner section - just food for thought.

the money is in cash games, unless your rippytyde.

Each has it's risks and rewards. If you can maintain 70% ITM then SnG's look like this. Taking an average of 2nd in $10 SnG's 70% of the time (which is unsustainable, believe me, but we'll leave that open for the moment) for 10 games = 210 - 110 = $100 profit. Most SnG's last an hour if you're ITM So you're looking at about 8-10 hours of play, maybe more for $10/hr. At the same time you're capping your investment to a maximum loss of $11 per game or for your ITM % a little more. So you're looking at an average of $14 risked to win $30. But you're risking the entire amount of the buy in every time. (multi-tabling SnG's is an option that will increase your $/hour but may decrease your ITM%)

With NL Ring (first comparing $.50/$1 ring as an investment to $10 SnG's is a stretch because it requires a 5x larger buy-in, a better comparison would be .1/.2 NL ring) you're risk and payout are more speculative. With a solid tight game you can expect maybe +40% of buy in vs -20%. Although a few bad calls will make it -100% and a few great hands with callers can make it +200%. Of those two possibilities, the -100% is easier to hit than the +200%. So we'll stick with the 20/40 rule and base it on 90 minutes of play.

So, 10 hours is about 8 sessions. With an investment of $50 per session in money risked, and a positive session % of 66% or so. In 2 sessions you lose $10. In six sessions you make $20. For an average return of +$100, or $10/hour. However, you've risked $400 to make it as opposed to $110.

With all that said, I think with tight, smart play it's easier to have 70% winning sessions (of some sort) playing NL Ring than it is to maintain 70% ITM in $10 SnG's. However, to make the comparison accurate you have to pop down to .1/.2 NL ring, not .5/1. And a good run of cards early on a ring game can give you a big boost in a very short period of time.

When I was really on my SNG game I would make an average of $120/day playing 3 table $30 SnG's. With a mix of .25/.50 ring and $1/2 ring I make about $75/day. However, I feel like I risk less. Because I could lose $200 in a day easily with the SnG's, and I've only lost $200 in a single day once playing ring, and I was really off my game that day.

I can't attest to the accuracy of any of these predicitions or calculations. I just use it as a way to give you another angle on the problem. Here are a couple of realities, however. 1. I've experienced 70% ITM on SnG's and it's unsustainable. For the ring game you're talking about you need at least a $600 bankroll. See the bankroll management posts for more on that. Nobody wins all the time.

Good luck. It sounds like you're beating the band on SnG's. Good Job!!!

I always struggle with this too...


In single table SnG's (especially short handed) i tend to do very well...

but you sit down at a ring game and make $25 - the equivalent of 2 SnG's in a fraction of the time...

but then you might lose it all a bit later with a straight vs a flush and think "shit i lost $50 instead of $6. i should be playing SnGs!"


A dilemma.
I love the action and limited risk of SnGs
I love the win potential of ring games.

Thanks for the replies guys I'll take them into consideration

bad beats are alot easier to take if you play SNGs rather than cash games

I'm fairly new to online poker... of course meaning I lost my first $100 deposit trying to bluff 4 people in a NL hand before finding this site

What I am doing is forgetting long term profits for now, and actually trying to learn the game. For my money that means <$10 sit n gos @ Pacific. I get to play and see a lot of hands and it doesnt cost me too much.

I'm now at a stage where I get in the money in the vast majority of 5/6/10 or even 20 player S'n'Gs I play in by just playing tighter than any good player here would suggest (Only play pocket pairs, or picture cards suited and get the hell out if the flop doesnt help - and ONLY raise hard if I have the best possible hand).

It usually means that I'm behind in chips for the endgame, but at this point I loosen right up, and use the fact that my opponents have seen that I'm a rock to get it back to evens.

The problem is I can see that I'm going to have to totally change my style of play when I get the balls to go near a no limit table again, but at least I'll have actual experience this time, instead of "I just watched WSOP on TV and I am clearly a poker genius and can retire by next week" ability.

Originally Posted by Uncster

I'm now at a stage where I get in the money in the vast majority of 5/6/10 or even 20 player S'n'Gs I play in by just playing tighter than any good player here would suggest (Only play pocket pairs, or picture cards suited and get the hell out if the flop doesnt help - and ONLY raise hard if I have the best possible hand).

The problem is I can see that I'm going to have to totally change my style of play when I get the balls to go near a no limit table again, but at least I'll have actual experience this time, instead of "I just watched WSOP on TV and I am clearly a poker genius and can retire by next week" ability.

Don't buy off on the myth that tight is not right once you start stepping up or trying other games. There are certain "tight" hands you play from certain positions. As you get closer to the button those hands get a little more varied. You know that, I'm sure. There's nothing wrong with playing that way in a ring game as well.

The discussions about agression you see are often-times taken the wrong way by beginners. Let me see if I can clarify it a bit.

First, blind agression is bad. The first skill is spotting weakness. And there are some standard plays were you can ferrit out weakness with agression. There's a great move you can put on AK post flop that will buy you the hand on the river. Plus there are blind steals that work against the right players in the right circumstance. These are moves you add to your bag as you gain experience. But they are literally just specific techniques used in specific positions. The work more often than not, but sometime you lose some chips trying them.

So, playing tight is right. The biggest problem players have is making loose preflop calls that almost guarantee that even when they hit they STILL have the 2nd best hand. I would rank poker skills in the following order:

1. Learn what to play and from what position (tight is right). This generally means playing less hands, not more.

2. Learn how to bet if you're playing NL - ring or SnG's. Learn how to bet to reduce your competition, to sweeten the pot, to take odds away from drawing hands, and to gather information. You need to know how to do all of these things. You have to make standard continuation bets. If you can't do that, then you don't know how to play. You need to make value bets, etc.

3. Learn to play position. Some people would rank this #2. But if you're super tight, then position is less important. But you do play hands differently based on position. And based on whether you opened the pot or not. You have learn what to play from where in different positions and how to bet it preflop. You bet AA differently in late position preflop with multiple limpers than you do if you're on the button against just the blinds. Why? Because you want to reduce your callers, but you do want some action if you can get it. So you have to know how to play position. This also involved knowing that your starting hand requirements change based on position, # of limpers, if you're opening the pot, etc.

4. Learn situational play. This might be making "moves" based on position and relative stack sizes, it may mean just calling that small stack from the BB because you can knock him out and that's your job as chip leader. It means when you have a small stack all-in and another big stack is in the hand, you check it down unless you're sure you have the AI stack beat by yourself, etc.

5. Start adding advanced moves to your bag. These are things like burning off a few chips to set someone up for a big fall. I do that all the time. I train the other players that when I do this, if they do that, then I'll fold. And once they're trained I spring the trap and take all their chips. Or it means soliciting that reraise when you have the nuts, making those selected agression plays that have high probability in the right situation. Included in this step is learning to read players. And you always start with the two guys to your left. They're on the blinds when you're on the button. Do they protect? What kind of cards do they show, etc. And you work your way from there reading the OBVIOUS players on the table. The guy who ALWAYS makes a continuation bet of just 1 or 2 BB post flop. The guy who overbets when he has crap and underbets or checks when he has quality (reverse players), who likes Ace Junk, etc.

So, it's a step by step process. Playing tight agressive is the first step. Playing loose agressive is nowhere in the steps. There are agressive plays that you make without cards, but they are based on INFORMATION that you have and the ODDS that the play will work. AA has certain ODDS for holding up. They don't ALWAYS hold up, but they have favorable odds in most situations preflop. Just like that there are certain agressive moves that have FAVORABLE ODDS of holding up. They don't always hold up. And just like you learn when to dump your aces (or you should), you also learn when to walk away from your agressive move.

I'm just saying, don't think that agressive is the next thing to learn after tight. Play the right cards, bet them right, start to understand position and play accordingly, learn situational play (for NL tournaments), and then add some tricks to your bag. A super-tight game is very effective in micro NL where you have 70% preflop callers and miniscule blinds. When you hit, if you bet it right you will be paid off bigtime. Even when they peg you as a Rock, they still call your bets. I don't know why, but they do. And your AK will crush their A9, etc. I've made alot of money just playing essentially the Nuts on NL ring. But I also play position, bet accordingly, etc. etc. I almost never make "move" in NL ring that I'll make in MTT tournaments, however. Yet people try them with me all the time, generally I let them get away with it for small $, and take all their chips when they do it at the wrong time.

Just as an example. I play like a rock. I'm generally not pushing the betting or raising without superquality, preflop and throughout the hand. It's OBVIOUS. Yet, if the average pot size is say $12 for the NL table I'm at, MY average pot size is $30+. Why? My pots should be smaller! The minute I raise or lead out with a pot sized bet people should be running for cover. But there's always one or two fools who don't. Now, there are times where they have a sneaky hand, like 66 when the flop is 6AK and I have top 2 pair. And when they do I pay them off if they're smart enough to just call me down. But I also know that if someone has the balls to reraise me, then I'm probably beat unless I have the true Nuts, which I sometimes do. Generally, though, I'm inviting their raise anyway. But, alot of people will say if you play NL ring tight you'll win a few small pots, but people are too smart to pay you off once they peg you as a rock. That Bullshit. The hands I lose are generally to people who know I have the best RIGHT NOW but are willing to call pot sized bets with their flush or straight draws. Hey, if they're willing to take horrible odds to hit that miracle out, then more power to them. I make my money every time they miss - which is more often then they want to admit.

Anyway, good luke. Play tight, play strong. Pacific is the place to be for SnG's. Tres Fishy!! Why better than Party Poker or Poker Stars.

Was that .5/1 NL or Limit? If you're properly bankrolled for .5/1, there's no reason in the world you should be playing $10 SnGs.

Between the two, you'll see a ton more money at .5/1 NL. But you need a lot more to be able to play at .5/1 (to the tune of $2k-3k or so, honestly).

In my experience, for comparable bankrolls, SnG play has been a safer, al beit slightly slower way to build a bankroll. That said, there's a lot to be said for the bonuses you can earn through ring play (once you build your bankroll up to a minimum level). At that point (up to where you're playing in huge buyin games and bonuses become a waste of time), ring games may tip the scale just for that reason.

In the end, really, I think it comes down to your style and what fits your play the best. Try both and see which works for you!

I'm more an SNG player, but I play NL ring for a couple reasons:

Bonuses - most sites you have to play ring to clear bonuses in a reasonable amount of time, although I am slowly working off a Pokerstars w/SNG since there's no time limit.

Time constraints - don't always have an hour or more to play SNG

Variety - and to work on ring play, though I usually try to do this while working off a bonus which provides an added cushion.

I think you can play either ring or SNGs profitably, but I'd lean more towards whichever you're stronger at then worrying about profit(at least at first)

Im definitely a better Sit N Go player...

what i like about sit n go
FINITE PLAYING TIME - It could take hours to hit hit some decent hands in cash game, with SnG, you'll know what you made for 1 tournament within an hours time
A CLEAR GOAL/PRIZE - You know what your playing for, and you have many hands to try and attain that prize
FUN - i play poker to make money, but i liek having fun with it, and cash games can be a drag after a while


I've made about $5,000 this year in the past 4 months playing Sit N Gos and ive won $22,000 playing multitable tournaments in the past 4 months
($17K, 3K, 1K, 1K are my big prizes)

I play on Pacific Poker for the sit n go tournaments, and id recommend it to anyone

Unless you play $20 sngs or more, they are just a waste of time. I don't understand people who play $5 sngs all day every day. It's the equivalent of playing nickel/dime limit in terms of earning potential per hour. That might be great for some people but I consider it a waste of time (and I'm a micro-stakes player!).