Cant win at very low stakes no limit games

ok, in tournaments i make a decent amount of money. I am a winning player

sometimes i enter some 10/20 cents cash 10 man games

i play an ABC variety of poker but find myself losing to bad beats all the time


for example i raised all in with ace king on an ace flop with a flush draw

got called by an ace 3 and an ace 4. the turn came 3, the river came 4.

My point is, how can i win if everytime i put my chips in i get about 4 callers with middle pair or bottom pair or top pair poor kicker

Simply, there are too many outs for me to dodge and i lose despite being best when the money goes in

So my question, how do i stop this happening?

i have tried raising more pre flop to thin the field more but this has proved unsuccessfull as it may thin the field but when i miss the flop i lose alot of money to someone who wont fold anything to a con bet

If you can win at tournies, I whole-heartidly suggest you just stick with tournies.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

If you can win at tournies, I whole-heartidly suggest you just stick with tournies.

-'rilla

but i would like to be able to pick up some quick money at cash games if i havent got time for an hour sit and go or a 3 hour MTT

Play 6max, the learning curve is smaller.

-'rilla

but i just wondered if a different game is required to succed at cash games compared to at tournament games?

i dont have alot of money and so i cant really keep wasting 10 dollars every so often trying to succeed at cash games. I have managed to work my banroll from an initial 34 dollars up to 1100 in a couple months via tournament play but i have heard that cash games could be even more profittable

There are some excellent tournament players who just can't play cash games... and there are some excellent cash game players who can't play tournaments.

I'm a much stronger tournament player than cash game player... but if I play a cash game, I end up with limit hold-em or omaha... rarely play cash NL unless its a homegame or something.

If you need cash, my advice is to stick to tournaments and play more SnG's.... and if SNGs are taking too long, then move up a dollar or two and play the turbo sngs... or a short handde (6 max) sng. Some people just aren't suited for the cash games

The advice posted above is good. Stick with tourneys if they make you money. If you really decide you want to switch to ring games, make the transition slow and make your decision wisely. Learn about ring game play and why your tournament moves won't make for a happy ending if you use them.

for example i raised all in with ace king on an ace flop with a flush draw got called by an ace 3 and an ace 4. the turn came 3, the river came 4.

This is what you get at these tables. It isn't uncommon where I have the nuts...say, the nut straight, my opponent is shortstacked and I raise huge, then they put themselves all-in while on a flush draw. I call and they see my hand, begin to realize that they just effed themselves, until the card they were drawing to falls on the turn or the river. I'm left with my D in my hand trying to remind myself I did the right thing while they are telling themselves that they are the best cardplayer at the table. Invariably they lose 1/2 of what they won to other crap players over the next two hands and then leave. Every time. It sucks, but you just take the good with the bad and keep rolling...the good will come in more often over time.

how can i win if everytime i put my chips in i get about 4 callers with middle pair or bottom pair or top pair poor kicker

Simply, there are too many outs for me to dodge and i lose despite being best when the money goes in

So my question, how do i stop this happening?

Wait for a better hand on the flop than TPTK to go all-in unless you are up against the short-stacked desperate disbeliever. Once you get the hand where you really slay somebody at the table for a giant chunk of their stack, your new image will control some of those loose callers for the next hand you want to play. Until then, it's a part of the game that you sometimes have to fold some good hands (or at the very least, not go all-in with them) when they're not working out for you, or when the table isn't letting you play them properly. (Don't let the table force you to play a hand improperly...release it)

My advice is to not put all your money in with TPTK very often anyway, especially against two or more possible callers, but even against one. If these players will call PFR's with an Ace and any other card (often the case), it's hard to put them on a specific hand, and a flop that comes Ace+rags does not always mean you are ahead with AK. Assuming they are shortstacked (often the case), bet enough so it hurts them to call and see if they do. Lean on them if you think they are getting desperate and your TPTK is good. Otherwise, don't pay off their crap hand when it hits. Wait for your sets or monsters or whatever and let TPTK or worse pay you off instead.

Generally these same players don't have an idea of how to figure out when you might be on a draw or how to screw your pot odds (purposely) when you are. Even if they do and start betting or raising their hand, the other players don't understand when someone is trying to protect a made hand and it will often come back to you with the pot odds to justify a call. So I like to save pushing my stack, for the most part, on those pots where I've seen the river and the pot is already large, and I have my nuts. If you are patient, there will be plenty of opportunities for you to go all-in when your hand is much less vulnerable than TPTK, or not vulnerable at all.

but i would like to be able to pick up some quick money at cash games if i havent got time for an hour sit and go or a 3 hour MTT

I think this is the wrong idea. People joke about these limits all the time, and for good reason. But I really believe you have to respect the game you are going into until you have proven that you can beat it, or you will wind up getting fried. These games are not ATM's for you to just collect from as soon as you sit down, simply because you might be a better player than most of the opposition. You'll actually have to put forth a little bit of 'better play' first. Occasionally you'll sit down and money will come quickly. Sometimes it will take a while. Except for when you have the stone cold nuts, you will still need some time to observe and figure out the other players at the table just like you do in a tournament. If you rush to try to make a profitable session out of half an hour, you will only succeed sometimes, and the other times you will find yourself trying to manufacture wins that don't pan out. You will be lucky if you break-even doing this, so don't think of it this way.

Originally Posted by yeardley

The advice posted above is good. Stick with tourneys if they make you money. If you really decide you want to switch to ring games, make the transition slow and make your decision wisely. Learn about ring game play and why your tournament moves won't make for a happy ending if you use them.

for example i raised all in with ace king on an ace flop with a flush draw got called by an ace 3 and an ace 4. the turn came 3, the river came 4.

This is what you get at these tables. It isn't uncommon where I have the nuts...say, the nut straight, my opponent is shortstacked and I raise huge, then they put themselves all-in while on a flush draw. I call and they see my hand, begin to realize that they just effed themselves, until the card they were drawing to falls on the turn or the river. I'm left with my D in my hand trying to remind myself I did the right thing while they are telling themselves that they are the best cardplayer at the table. Invariably they lose 1/2 of what they won to other crap players over the next two hands and then leave. Every time. It sucks, but you just take the good with the bad and keep rolling...the good will come in more often over time.

how can i win if everytime i put my chips in i get about 4 callers with middle pair or bottom pair or top pair poor kicker

Simply, there are too many outs for me to dodge and i lose despite being best when the money goes in

So my question, how do i stop this happening?

Wait for a better hand on the flop than TPTK to go all-in unless you are up against the short-stacked desperate disbeliever. Once you get the hand where you really slay somebody at the table for a giant chunk of their stack, your new image will control some of those loose callers for the next hand you want to play. Until then, it's a part of the game that you sometimes have to fold some good hands (or at the very least, not go all-in with them) when they're not working out for you, or when the table isn't letting you play them properly. (Don't let the table force you to play a hand improperly...release it)

My advice is to not put all your money in with TPTK very often anyway, especially against two or more possible callers, but even against one. If these players will call PFR's with an Ace and any other card (often the case), it's hard to put them on a specific hand, and a flop that comes Ace+rags does not always mean you are ahead with AK. Assuming they are shortstacked (often the case), bet enough so it hurts them to call and see if they do. Lean on them if you think they are getting desperate and your TPTK is good. Otherwise, don't pay off their crap hand when it hits. Wait for your sets or monsters or whatever and let TPTK or worse pay you off instead.

Generally these same players don't have an idea of how to figure out when you might be on a draw or how to screw your pot odds (purposely) when you are. Even if they do and start betting or raising their hand, the other players don't understand when someone is trying to protect a made hand and it will often come back to you with the pot odds to justify a call. So I like to save pushing my stack, for the most part, on those pots where I've seen the river and the pot is already large, and I have my nuts. If you are patient, there will be plenty of opportunities for you to go all-in when your hand is much less vulnerable than TPTK, or not vulnerable at all.

but i would like to be able to pick up some quick money at cash games if i havent got time for an hour sit and go or a 3 hour MTT

I think this is the wrong idea. People joke about these limits all the time, and for good reason. But I really believe you have to respect the game you are going into until you have proven that you can beat it, or you will wind up getting fried. These games are not ATM's for you to just collect from as soon as you sit down, simply because you might be a better player than most of the opposition. You'll actually have to put forth a little bit of 'better play' first. Occasionally you'll sit down and money will come quickly. Sometimes it will take a while. Except for when you have the stone cold nuts, you will still need some time to observe and figure out the other players at the table just like you do in a tournament. If you rush to try to make a profitable session out of half an hour, you will only succeed sometimes, and the other times you will find yourself trying to manufacture wins that don't pan out. You will be lucky if you break-even doing this, so don't think of it this way.

Excellent reply thank you

the last paragraph is where i may have been going wrong

also, i only bring about 8 dollars to a table because i dont like the thought of losing 30 dollars i have hard earned in sng's to a moron via a bad beat. i think maybe to be successful in cash games the maximum buy in is advantageous? do u agree?

You got a lot to learn young grasshopper.

imo you have to choose a game and stick with it. even the best players cant mix up their tournament play and their ring game play without disrupting one or the other. Ring game play isnt about sitting down to make a quick score, its about putting in the hours to collect your bb/100. Sure at the lower limits you are dodging more outs to put a beat on you and you will lose a larger % of the time, but win a larger put when you hold up. Its math and math always holds up. That top pair top kicker with a flush draw might only be 30% to win against 5 opponents for that 30 dollar pot where you might rather have it heads up where you're 75% to win it but in the end...both hands are worth 9 dollars.

for the longest time I played only no-limit cash games, then saw the potential in tournament and limit play, so I switched.

i think maybe to be successful in cash games the maximum buy in is advantageous? do u agree?

Absolutely. Give yourself that extra edge...in a lot of cases you will start out as the chip leader by buying in max.

It's also important to mention the importance of 'table-selection' and seat selection at this point. I've seen some good threads on that subject in this forum.

Once you've found the right table keep your game in check and stick around for a while. If you're paying attention, after about 30 min. to an hour you will feel more comfortable with the table dynamic and your knowledge of the other players (the ones who have also been around for a while), and you can make your decisions with more confidence.

Originally Posted by Zidane18

Simply, there are too many outs for me to dodge and i lose despite being best when the money goes in

So my question, how do i stop this happening?

You are asking how you stop cards from coming up that turn your best hand into a 2nd or 3rd best hand after the money is all in? Well, you can't.
The best thing you can do is get your money in the pot when you have the best hand-----if you're doing that, you'll be profitable. You won't become unprofitable from just a few fluke hands that give it to the chasers.

We all have examples of bad beats, but let's not make generalizations based off of them. Going all-in when you know you have the best hand is never a bad move (though in some situations slow play or lower betting might be a better move).

Originally Posted by yeardley

Wait for a better hand on the flop than TPTK to go all-in unless you are up against the short-stacked desperate disbeliever. Once you get the hand where you really slay somebody at the table for a giant chunk of their stack, your new image will control some of those loose callers for the next hand you want to play. Until then, it's a part of the game that you sometimes have to fold some good hands (or at the very least, not go all-in with them) when they're not working out for you, or when the table isn't letting you play them properly. (Don't let the table force you to play a hand improperly...release it)

My advice is to not put all your money in with TPTK very often anyway, especially against two or more possible callers, but even against one. If these players will call PFR's with an Ace and any other card (often the case), it's hard to put them on a specific hand, and a flop that comes Ace+rags does not always mean you are ahead with AK. Assuming they are shortstacked (often the case), bet enough so it hurts them to call and see if they do. Lean on them if you think they are getting desperate and your TPTK is good. Otherwise, don't pay off their crap hand when it hits. Wait for your sets or monsters or whatever and let TPTK or worse pay you off instead.

Generally these same players don't have an idea of how to figure out when you might be on a draw or how to screw your pot odds (purposely) when you are. Even if they do and start betting or raising their hand, the other players don't understand when someone is trying to protect a made hand and it will often come back to you with the pot odds to justify a call. So I like to save pushing my stack, for the most part, on those pots where I've seen the river and the pot is already large, and I have my nuts. If you are patient, there will be plenty of opportunities for you to go all-in when your hand is much less vulnerable than TPTK, or not vulnerable at all.

but i would like to be able to pick up some quick money at cash games if i havent got time for an hour sit and go or a 3 hour MTT

I think this is the wrong idea. People joke about these limits all the time, and for good reason. But I really believe you have to respect the game you are going into until you have proven that you can beat it, or you will wind up getting fried. These games are not ATM's for you to just collect from as soon as you sit down, simply because you might be a better player than most of the opposition. You'll actually have to put forth a little bit of 'better play' first. Occasionally you'll sit down and money will come quickly. Sometimes it will take a while. Except for when you have the stone cold nuts, you will still need some time to observe and figure out the other players at the table just like you do in a tournament. If you rush to try to make a profitable session out of half an hour, you will only succeed sometimes, and the other times you will find yourself trying to manufacture wins that don't pan out. You will be lucky if you break-even doing this, so don't think of it this way.

Excellent advice, especially that first paragraph. That was hurting me too a while back, and while I still may push with TPTK, I only do it heads up now...

I have the same problems as you, but in reverse. I can't seem to do well in tournies, although I would really like to! I always seem to bubble out or get a bad beat and end up just out of the money - even when I think I am making the right moves. I think I'm just going to have to do more reading up on tournies and keep trying...

An interesting post. I feel your pain.

Like you, I mainly play the 10+1's, but sometimes (usually when i dont have much time, or when i don't feel like an SnG, or when i'm not playing great in the tourneys) i switch to playing the low limit rings...

I tend to win a couple of big hands, get close to doubling up and then lose it all by doing something like... all in with a set of kings, and get flushed or straighted out. Sometimes its me overvaluing my hand, sometimes its a plain old suck out.

The problem with ring games is that you can make the winnings of a 10+1 SnG in half an hour or an hour, whereas playing the SnGs might give you one win in three hours..... and our weak human brains make an association that this is an expectation.

Far from it...

I'm sticking to SnGs from now on, because i keep building my BR with them before losing all my profits in ringys. BAH!

thanks for the advice everyone. i have now become succefull in these type of cash games! i basically play a totally different brand of poker to the one i have employed successfully at tournament level

i play alot of suited connectors which have a better chance of getting the nuts. then i cash in!

You need to select your sites as carefully as you select your tables.

Here is a radical approach to playing micro-limit that works for me

If you are trying to build or rebuild your bankrollon micro-limit tablesI have a suggestion. Play sites you normally don't play at (where you are NOT known. Then:

Play looser

Not tighter

Not Stupid

Play rags on a .10/25 table and see EVERY SINGLE unraised flop.

Get a little aggressive when you hit the flop

Limp everytime. Call a raise if you have something. Re-raise HARD to isolate once in a while. Fold if you don’t

Pretend it’s a play money table. Forget that i'is cash.

Treat the quarter like it’s an ante. Just limp every single time and fold or raise occasionally to confuse people. Once you commit bully the small stacks without mercy. If they bought in for $5 they are playing with scared money. Believe me theythink hard about $2 bets and fold to $3 bets.

I tried this today for a couple of hours playing 2 tables (on 2 different sites) while I was playing a long MTT.. I admit that I bought in for the full $25 and reloaded every time I lost a penny at the beginning. Prety soon I hit a couple and never looked back.

But I made over $40 an hour when I was finished. It was kinda mindless but it did work while I was being a TAG in the tournament. It let me resist the urge to get cute during that.

I had a couple of amazing flops that really made some money. I wish I’d thought to get the hand histories. I flopped a full house, 2 flushes, a couple of raggy straights, 3 sets of 10s or better and a bunch of PPs. You have to understand that these were at tables averaging over 70% seeing the flop so when I hit I had lots of players betting. The full-house had 2 players all-in and I made about $45 with it so that really helped. I did get AAKK busted by a rivered flush and that cost about $15. I also got some hands good and cranked up pre-flop and then folded and watched the bloodletting.

My point is that I did something completely different and it was fun and profitable.

Syn