Can we play back at paired flops?

6 max, 100bbs stacks, villain plays 20/17.

Preflop: MP raises 4, hero calls.

Flop: (9,5bb) 5, 5, 9 (2 players)
MP bets 8, Hero calls

Turn: (25,5bb) 3 (2 players)
MP bets 15, Hero raises to 40

1: yes or no ?
2: board is T, T, 5, 3 ?
3. board is A, A, 5, 3 ?
4. board is T, 5, 3, T ?
5: 150 bbs ?
6: villain is 30/17 ?
7: villain is 10/6 ?

20/17 isnt that relevent. What is far more relevent is his 2 barreling frequency. Obviously if he never 2 barells then youre out of there on the turn.

Maybe this thread needs some clarification.
First of all, I think it is clear that it was meant that hero has nothing here and is trying to get villain of a hand, either if villains has something or not.
I started writing a post about the subject, but it got too big and it lead to more questions than answers, so I'm hoping this way it will stay more to the point.

Pelion, I think some of these boards are better for 2 barreling than others. Of course, knowing villains 2 barrel frequenty helps a lot, but we often don't have that much of a read on someone, let alone that it is often very reliable.
But assume hero knows some boards are better for 2 barrels, and villain is decent and knows that too, so hero can take that into account when considering making this move.

Besides 2 barreling frequenty, the play is meant to get villain of a lot of hands.

The vpip/pfr should always be important, because they say something of villains hand range. Though I admit they could be of less importance in most of these scenario's.

My intention after this is looking into things like:
- Our play when we actually flop trips
- Putting hero in villains place and evaluate
- Maybe even look into alternative flop lines for both, though some of these could be too ambitious/not doable.


edit: I came to the idea because a lot of people get scared somewhere in the hand on paired boards and that has to be exploitable.

Hand 1: your range after the turn is: bluff/5-x/9-9, so i like it against an aware opponent.

Hand 2: raise the flop if you are going to make a play.

Hand 3: this is a great spot to float with air, as long as he doesn't think about your hole cards. If he is pretty good at putting his opponents on ranges, i think you will get looked up a lot by pairs when you bet the turn. At 100NL i don't think you will run into too many good hand readers though.

Hand 4: same as hand 2.

5. I think the difference in implied threat of 100/150BB's is only relevant if you are going to make a flop raise. And i would only raise the flop on Hands 1 + 2.

6 + 7. Stats don't tell you how your opponents like to play after the flop. Against someone who floats often, i bluff less, and against a nit who folds too much, i bluff more. Even against such a nit, i only like bluff floating the A-A-x flop.

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Hand 1: your range after the turn is: bluff/5-x/9-9, so i like it against an aware opponent.

Hand 2: raise the flop if you are going to make a play.

Hand 3: this is a great spot to float with air, as long as he doesn't think about your hole cards. If he is pretty good at putting his opponents on ranges, i think you will get looked up a lot by pairs when you bet the turn. At 100NL i don't think you will run into too many good hand readers though.

Hand 4: same as hand 2.

5. I think the difference in implied threat of 100/150BB's is only relevant if you are going to make a flop raise. And i would only raise the flop on Hands 1 + 2.

6 + 7. Stats don't tell you how your opponents like to play after the flop. Against someone who floats often, i bluff less, and against a nit who folds too much, i bluff more. Even against such a nit, i only like bluff floating the A-A-x flop.

Hand 1: 33 is in my range here as well.
Being villain here, are you laying down AA? JJ? TT?
Are those usually the same on this board?
Being villain, are you betting the turn with AA? with JJ?

Hand 2: I think I'm with you here.
As played though, again being villain are you laying down AA? JJ?
Would you somewhere lay them down if hero raised flop?

Hand 3: I don't really know about making a play on this one.
You're saying we are being looked up lighter by the better players, I partly disagree with that. I think you'll get lookedup a lot by everyone.
But shouldn't we get looked up less by the good handreaders?
Compare this one with Hand 2. An A is a bigger part of our range than an T, so it's more likely that we hit our board.
Tbh I think on this board our FE is the least of all, so playing agressive when we actually did hit would be very good, imo.

Hand 4: I disagree with you this is the same as hand 2. I think villain puts us on a T here a lot more then in hand 2. We are never raising the flop here with a T and we are in hand 2.

Hand 5: You could be right here, I don't know a lot and/or have a lot of experience with playing deeper.
The reason I put this scenario in is that our turn raise with 100bb doesn't leave a lot behind, so maybe we'll get looked up lighter then being 150bb deep. In both situation we are attacking villains whole stack, so I guess it makes a different if you're risking 100bb or 150bb.
I can also see a difference in raising flop or turn. With 100bb a flop raise could be more scary as a turn raise could be at 150bb. I'm not sure about that though.

Hand 6+7: You're probably right about this. I put those in to see if they say anything about the likelyhood villain hit trips/boat. But for now I think they are indeed irrelevant.

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 1: 33 is in my range here as well.
Being villain here, are you laying down AA? JJ? TT?
Are those usually the same on this board?
Being villain, are you betting the turn with AA? with JJ?

Against an unknown, i would probably pitch an overpair against this line. If i knew my opponent was tricky, i would probably c/c turn bet/fold river. It is very unlikely anyone would try to bluff us on the river if we played our hand this way.

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 2: I think I'm with you here.
As played though, again being villain are you laying down AA? JJ?
Would you somewhere lay them down if hero raised flop?

If i got raised on the flop with an overpair, i would call the flop and c/f turn. Again, with more information on the opponent, sometimes shoving the flop for value would work (Yeti theorem thing).

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 3: I don't really know about making a play on this one.
You're saying we are being looked up lighter by the better players, I partly disagree with that. I think you'll get lookedup a lot by everyone.
But shouldn't we get looked up less by the good handreaders?
Compare this one with Hand 2. An A is a bigger part of our range than an T, so it's more likely that we hit our board.
Tbh I think on this board our FE is the least of all, so playing agressive when we actually did hit would be very good, imo.

I think we were interpreting "good" hand readers on different levels lol.

It's a scary board, but a good opponent with history would know you would float the flop as a bluff sometimes since it is very unlikely he could be holding an Ace. If i was villain and playing against an unknown, the proposition of having to call a turn and a river bet with two Aces on the board would be scary without an Ace. But yeah when we actually hit trips on this board we should be raising the flop.

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 4: I disagree with you this is the same as hand 2. I think villain puts us on a T here a lot more then in hand 2. We are never raising the flop here with a T and we are in hand 2.

I would raise the flop with a hand like K-10/A-10 for value, but just calling with other 10-x hands is fine without information. As for the hands playing differently, i think most players at lower limits would consider 10-x in our range with a flop float on either board, so i don't think a turn raise would "feel" any different.

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 5: You could be right here, I don't know a lot and/or have a lot of experience with playing deeper.
The reason I put this scenario in is that our turn raise with 100bb doesn't leave a lot behind, so maybe we'll get looked up lighter then being 150bb deep. In both situation we are attacking villains whole stack, so I guess it makes a different if you're risking 100bb or 150bb.
I can also see a difference in raising flop or turn. With 100bb a flop raise could be more scary as a turn raise could be at 150bb. I'm not sure about that though.

IMO a 3/4PSB and a 5/4PSB are tough for villain to call on the river without a read/history, so the difference in implied threat is at best slight.

Now that I've taken a look at your post, will you take a look at my A-K post in this part of the forum plz? Hopefully you can add/correct some of my thoughts!

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 1: 33 is in my range here as well.
Being villain here, are you laying down AA? JJ? TT?
Are those usually the same on this board?
Being villain, are you betting the turn with AA? with JJ?

Against an unknown, i would probably pitch an overpair against this line. If i knew my opponent was tricky, i would probably c/c turn bet/fold river. It is very unlikely anyone would try to bluff us on the river if we played our hand this way.

What would your betsize be for the river bet? Tbh, if you used that line against me I'd put you on an overpair about always.
Against a tricky opponent I think c/c turn c/c river is better. I think it induces another bluff often. Betting river after c/c turn seems very transparant to me and you can easily be raised of your hand. (not completey sure about this one I admit, but I got caught yesterday by someone c/c-ing turn and river against me when I was trying to get him off. It was a nice play by him and it worked out well, though I like it a bit less because I was unknown to him)

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 2: I think I'm with you here.
As played though, again being villain are you laying down AA? JJ?
Would you somewhere lay them down if hero raised flop?

If i got raised on the flop with an overpair, i would call the flop and c/f turn. Again, with more information on the opponent, sometimes shoving the flop for value would work (Yeti theorem thing).

I had to think a while about this one, but I completely agree.

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 3: I don't really know about making a play on this one.
You're saying we are being looked up lighter by the better players, I partly disagree with that. I think you'll get lookedup a lot by everyone.
But shouldn't we get looked up less by the good handreaders?
Compare this one with Hand 2. An A is a bigger part of our range than an T, so it's more likely that we hit our board.
Tbh I think on this board our FE is the least of all, so playing agressive when we actually did hit would be very good, imo.

I think we were interpreting "good" hand readers on different levels lol.

It's a scary board, but a good opponent with history would know you would float the flop as a bluff sometimes since it is very unlikely he could be holding an Ace. If i was villain and playing against an unknown, the proposition of having to call a turn and a river bet with two Aces on the board would be scary without an Ace. But yeah when we actually hit trips on this board we should be raising the flop.

Hehe you got me on the hand reading level. I agree with your thoughts.

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 4: I disagree with you this is the same as hand 2. I think villain puts us on a T here a lot more then in hand 2. We are never raising the flop here with a T and we are in hand 2.

I would raise the flop with a hand like K-10/A-10 for value, but just calling with other 10-x hands is fine without information. As for the hands playing differently, i think most players at lower limits would consider 10-x in our range with a flop float on either board, so i don't think a turn raise would "feel" any different.

I actually never thought about raising the flop with A10, K10...
I see the benefits of it as Q10, J10, 910 are likely calling.
Are you also raising TPTK/TPGK hands on 9xx and Jxx boards.

I don't know if it's the most +EV move though, I have to give it some more thoughts, maybe some math.
As a raise looks pretty strong, I'm thinking there's only one street of value left after it. When we just call I think we can get 2 more streets of value, which has about the same result, I think. I'll try some math sometimes.

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Originally Posted by minSim

Hand 5: You could be right here, I don't know a lot and/or have a lot of experience with playing deeper.
The reason I put this scenario in is that our turn raise with 100bb doesn't leave a lot behind, so maybe we'll get looked up lighter then being 150bb deep. In both situation we are attacking villains whole stack, so I guess it makes a different if you're risking 100bb or 150bb.
I can also see a difference in raising flop or turn. With 100bb a flop raise could be more scary as a turn raise could be at 150bb. I'm not sure about that though.

IMO a 3/4PSB and a 5/4PSB are tough for villain to call on the river without a read/history, so the difference in implied threat is at best slight.

I'm not sure if we are still talking about the same thing here.
But remember hero is in position and we are raising a turn bet.
With 100BB, it's 25 to call for villain wich leaves 48 behind at the river on a 107,50 pot. (so half pot, 1:3)
With 150BB, it's still 25 to call but leaves 98 behind on a 107.50 pot. (about a psb, 1:2)

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Now that I've taken a look at your post, will you take a look at my A-K post in this part of the forum plz? Hopefully you can add/correct some of my thoughts!

I will...
You can also try posting it in the shorthanded forum for more responses.

Ok, what does the numbers mean when he said the villian plays 20/17, and what is 2 barreling