Can anyone explain counter-play please?

i noticed this has been deleted cuz of some book that aok is making? can anyone remember most of it cuz i wanted to read it over but alas...

I could be way off but isn't that simply that you let your timer run to fake weakness or something?

Originally Posted by jackvance

I could be way off but isn't that simply that you let your timer run to fake weakness or something?

no it's a whole strategy on how to play NL full ring

it's a style that revolves around seeing a lot of flops cheaply and trying to hit big before investing a lot of money into a pot.

Originally Posted by Lukie

it's a style that revolves around seeing a lot of flops cheaply and trying to hit big before investing a lot of money into a pot.

are you positive? i was under the impression that it still revolved around a pretty tight pre-flop game.

Originally Posted by jackvance

I could be way off but isn't that simply that you let your timer run to fake weakness or something?

lol I think this is better known as "hollywooding".

Martin - I'm not totally sure, but I think it's basically what Lukie said. The optimal time to apply counter-play is at a table full of loose-passive calling stations. Say you pick up KQs on the button. Normally I raise to isolate and take it down on the flop with a c-bet. However, if your opponents are bad and will call down with bottom pair, then the value of raising preflop greatly decreases, so you just limp. If you miss on the flop, no big deal, just dump it. But if you hit a hand like TPGK, you can potentially take down a nice pot b/c they will call you down anyway. The obvious drawback is that you are letting the blinds (and other limpers) see the flop with whatever garbage they might have, but with good post-flop skill and position, counter-play can be very +EV.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Lukie

it's a style that revolves around seeing a lot of flops cheaply and trying to hit big before investing a lot of money into a pot.

are you positive? i was under the impression that it still revolved around a pretty tight pre-flop game.

Its ment for loose passive-tables
you play the fairly tight 19 hands. You can also throw in suited connectors, connectors, suited aces etc. All the hands that play well multiway.

You dont raise preflop (unless you get a chance to limp/reraise AA/KK

You check/call postflop until you hit top 2 pair or better. Depending on the texture of the flop etc etc... you go nuclear with top 2 pair +

This will only work on very loose/passive tables where your villains are pretty unaware.


IMO its a strategy that you should take bits and pieces from, but I doubt you will find many tables where strict counterplay will be ideal

damn if more people played like that i'd be a poker millionaire in no time!

Originally Posted by Lukie

damn if more people played like that i'd be a poker millionaire in no time!

it wouldnt work at your tables. Its specifically for very loose-very passive tables where people will call raises with crap.

It maximises profits in a way that TAG doesnt because, rather than raising preflop and folding the flop, you just see a cheap flop and then bet twice as much when you hit as a TAG would and still get callers. That way you lose less when you dont hit a flop hard, and you win the same amount when you do.

There arent many tables it works well at though, even at the 5NL stars game. I think it is a strategy that is best played against specific opponents rather than against everyone at a particular stake.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Lukie

it's a style that revolves around seeing a lot of flops cheaply and trying to hit big before investing a lot of money into a pot.

are you positive? i was under the impression that it still revolved around a pretty tight pre-flop game.

Its ment for loose passive-tables
you play the fairly tight 19 hands. You can also throw in suited connectors, connectors, suited aces etc. All the hands that play well multiway.

You dont raise preflop (unless you get a chance to limp/reraise AA/KK

You check/call postflop until you hit top 2 pair or better. Depending on the texture of the flop etc etc... you go nuclear with top 2 pair +

This will only work on very loose/passive tables where your villains are pretty unaware.


IMO its a strategy that you should take bits and pieces from, but I doubt you will find many tables where strict counterplay will be ideal

Table selection is key. Everything else is accurate as well, playing a weak tight game preflop and usually on the flop, but then turning hyper aggressive on the turn and river.
There is a duality in this theory, though, because the other crucial element, probably the most important (which is what makes this a potentially effective and profitable strategy) is that a gear switch after a certain period of time is a must. It turns from weak tight to LAG and back again. When (if) you win some big pots showing extreme strength, then you start throwing in stone cold bluffs on the turn and river, LAGging it up.
The duality is that you want players who are not very good, to go to the river with marginal holdings, but are also thinking enough to notice you only show strength with very strong hands and will back down from you when you switch gears.

There is some merit to it. I think one of the things it accomplishes is pot size control.