Can 10NL be any easier

This is how they think at party at the 10NL.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $17.70
UTG+1: $14.26
trainer_jyms: $13.50
MP2: $14.78
MP3: $10.90
CO: $10.22
Button: $8.40
SB: $9.60
BB: $1.12

Pre-flop: (9 players) trainer_jyms is MP1 with
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, trainer_jyms calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.7, 7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, trainer_jyms checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($0.7, 7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, trainer_jyms checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

River: ($0.7, 7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, trainer_jyms bets $1, 6 folds.
Uncalled bets: $1 returned to trainer_jyms.

Results:
Final pot: $0.7

First thing I did was scan for my name in the player list.

Yes we can be fish... lets remember that these limits at party are for BEGINERS!. My biggest mistake is calling an all-in with TPTK and getting beat by random junk.

Thank you.

I took the names out now to protect the fishdom. Just wish we'd have gotten more in preflop.

You realize you weren't guaranteed a split right?

I think you are the fish... I dont get it. Everyone just checked it down and there are 4 (7c 10c Jc Qc)cards in the deck that would give somone a better flush than the board...

Originally Posted by ekillian

You realize you weren't guaranteed a split right?

with flushes kickers play

Simply because there is an ace high flush on the board does not mean its a split pot, if somebody called with a club higher than a 6, you would lose.

so if someone with the :Qc: had pushed after our hero bet and hero called, you mean to tell me Party Poker would have the gall to give all of our hero's money to the person with the :Qc??

absolutely, that's my point. No-one had a club? I figured if their was a Qc It was a reraise for sure. It's just an example of what's going on for some to see.

But shouldn't that proverbial queen holder have bet just a little to see if the Ace or King was hiding after the flop/turn? What would be the purpose (if you had the Q) of checking the turn? Hell, If I had the Q, I'd bet at the flop just to see if anyone was holding the SF draw.
It's this free checking behaviour that tilts me off like a big ol' tilty thing.

I suppose some sort of showdown obsessed check monkey might hold the queen and think it was good move to check "in case of the king", but we're talking about the odds of any one card (1/45?), that anyone has it. I'm willing to pay a little to find out, especially since it wins me the pot 44/45 times (at the turn + if I have the queen).

And then there is the, "what hands would I be holding the Queen with" question... I don't play Qx suited unless x=AKJ. Obviously I might play QQ, but I wouldn't limp.

So is there a chance some super donk is slowplaying a made nut flush, or even 7s10s? Sure. But if they are THAT dumb, or think they are THAT tricky, It's worth my dollar bet (I might have only bet $0.35 actually) to find that out about them...

Right?

Same table five minutess ago.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
trainer_jyms: $27
UTG+1: $10
MP1: $55
MP2: $85
CO: $06
Button: $10
SB: $80
BB: $60

Pre-flop: (8 players) trainer_jyms is UTG with K A
trainer_jyms calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: T 8 Q ($0.45, 7 players)
CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Turn: J ($0.45, 5 players)
BB checks, trainer_jyms checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $0.2, CO calls, BB calls, trainer_jyms calls, MP1 folds.

River: K ($1.25, 4 players)
BB checks, trainer_jyms bets $0.3, MP2 folds, CO raises to $0.85, BB folds, trainer_jyms raises to $1.7, CO calls, trainer_jyms raises all-in $10.57, CO calls all-in $8.36.
Uncalled bets: $0.51 returned to trainer_jyms.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Same table five minutess ago.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
trainer_jyms: $27
UTG+1: $10
MP1: $55
MP2: $85
CO: $06
Button: $10
SB: $80
BB: $60

Pre-flop: (8 players) trainer_jyms is UTG with K A
trainer_jyms calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: T 8 Q ($0.45, 7 players)
CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Turn: J ($0.45, 5 players)
BB checks, trainer_jyms checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $0.2, CO calls, BB calls, trainer_jyms calls, MP1 folds.

River: K ($1.25, 4 players)
BB checks, trainer_jyms bets $0.3, MP2 folds, CO raises to $0.85, BB folds, trainer_jyms raises to $1.7, CO calls, trainer_jyms raises all-in $10.57, CO calls all-in $8.36.
Uncalled bets: $0.51 returned to trainer_jyms.

I think the converter went bezerk on this hand history

I guess I will wait to see the real betting, looks like the HH is not accurate.

Right now, it looks like you slowplayed a straight into having to split what you could/should have taken down earlier with BETTING...

Originally Posted by chardrian

so if someone with the :Qc: had pushed after our hero bet and hero called, you mean to tell me Party Poker would have the gall to give all of our hero's money to the person with the :Qc??

Yeah. Online poker's rigged. I heard it from a guy who's best friend's cousin's dog peed on a Party Poker mousemat.

Originally Posted by magneticskull

I guess I will wait to see the real betting, looks like the HH is not accurate.

Right now, it looks like you slowplayed a straight into having to split what you could/should have taken down earlier with BETTING...

Not only that, he also managed to push after his earlier raise got a simple call?! New poker rules at party?

But still mostly lol @ slowplaying a broadway straight..

fantastic

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by ekillian

You realize you weren't guaranteed a split right?

with flushes kickers play

I know. That's what I was saying to him.

Originally Posted by magneticskull

I suppose some sort of showdown obsessed check monkey might hold the queen and think it was good move to check "in case of the king", but we're talking about the odds of any one card (1/45?), that anyone has it. I'm willing to pay a little to find out, especially since it wins me the pot 44/45 times (at the turn + if I have the queen).

The odds of the K being out there (and once the K comes on the river, the Q) is actually quite high.
Sure it's a 1/45 chance, but there are 12 cards out there.

When I tried to do the sums I make it a 75% chance that someone is holding a card that improves the flush.
So this hand will be lost 3 times out of 4.

Now the 7 and the T may fold to a strong bet, the Q and J probably would have bet the turn. So this may be a playable move. But it with all those cards out there and this level; I think this is going to lose money in the long run.

Ano, [sorry bout the tone you are about to be blessed with, but...]

In what physical model of the universe do "12 cards out there" affect the chances of any one of them being the King of Clubs?
Not sure what you consider "quite high" either. 2.2%? 5%???
Personally, I fold Kx suited unless x=AQJT or I'm BB.
And anyone holding that hand in clubs and NOT Betting should have been flushed at the hospital.
Seriously. (makes me cranky even contemplating it... as you can see)

Originally Posted by magneticskull

In what physical model of the universe do "12 cards out there" affect the chances of any one of them being the King of Clubs?

You seem to have put your opp's on one card rather than 12 though, here is the quote:

but we're talking about the odds of any one card (1/45?), that anyone has it. I'm willing to pay a little to find out, especially since it wins me the pot 44/45 times (at the turn + if I have the queen).

Originally Posted by magneticskull

Ano, [sorry bout the tone you are about to be blessed with, but...]

In what physical model of the universe do "12 cards out there" affect the chances of any one of them being the King of Clubs?
Not sure what you consider "quite high" either. 2.2%? 5%???
Personally, I fold Kx suited unless x=AQJT or I'm BB.
And anyone holding that hand in clubs and NOT Betting should have been flushed at the hospital.
Seriously. (makes me cranky even contemplating it... as you can see)

Erm. The model in which the more cards that are in play the higher the chance that one of them is the card in question (in this case the Q of clubs; because the river shows that no one had the K). (You do realise that if you try a million-to-one-shot often enough, it'll happen, right? I mean, that's made it's way into your model of the universe?)

The chance that someone is holding the a card that improves the the flush is 75%. That's what I call "quite high".

So you don't believe anyone has the Q. Fine. Great. lovely. Are you absolutely sure that no one has the 7 or the T? That's what makes this bet risky.
But it's certainly what makes lambasting these players for folding a "split pot" a bit off.

Never Mind. This is making me visibly angry. If you would slow play a flush draw on this board with either the Qc or the Nuts (T7c) then you deserve a slow death at the hands of Phil Helmuth.
Essentially, there is one good hand (QcQx) and one so so hand (QJc) that I would even bring to this table that someone should be afraid of at that River (with all the free checking going on, someone is going to open a Wachovia branch).
And if I had EITHER of those, I would be betting at that flop to isolate, see if anyone has something or take it down right there. Heck, I might even FOLD if someone re-raised me and save myself some chips...
Slowplaying is only good with the nuts.
And in this case, the nuts should have folded (T7c) pre-flop. But if they didn't I WILL PAY THEM and note their name and write "slowplays the NUTS" next to it in permanent marker.

My point is this... what are you afraid of?
... BET.
Betting gains you information... Checking to the wachovia crowd gains you NO info.
You might as well walk away from the table, walk back into the casino and put a $5 bill into a slot machine and pull the lever like my mom.

-DONE-

Never Mind. This is making me visibly angry.

No reason to get angry, you made a mistake... it's not like it's the first mistake you (or we) have ever made... It's not a big deal... if you dont think it's a mistake, then feel free to debate it, but dont expect us to just shut up when we dont agree...

Also, please remember that posts can often sound a lot harsher than intended, and before you post anything on a messageboard, you really need to learn to not get angry about people disagreing with you...

This has been a nice discussion, not a flame by any measure.

All of that said...

I dont agree with your statement, below is how I would say it...

If you would slow play a flush draw on this board with either the Qc or the Nuts (T7c) then you are probally one of the fish that play 10NL...

And if I had EITHER of those, I would be betting at that flop to isolate, see if anyone has something or take it down right there. Heck, I might even FOLD if someone re-raised me and save myself some chips...

there is another problem, your playing against fish that have no idea what they are doing....

Why are you giving them credit for not only playing good hands, but also playing them correctly?

Originally Posted by magneticskull

Never Mind. This is making me visibly angry.

Because we have the nerve to disagree with you? That makes you angry?
Hmm.

Look, for all your analysis you've got to answer one, simple, two-part question. Firstly does anyone have a club higher than a 6? Secondly if anyone has it will they fold to a bet?

There are plenty of viable hands pre-flop because this is 10NL someone could have 7c2d. It's 10NL. There will be someone there who will play anything.
But let's assume that's not the case, there's plently of possible hands. 7c7x, TcTx, JcQx, JcKx, JcAx, QcJx, QcKx (QcAx might have raised pf, but again 10NL).

Now should one bet these hands? Sure, but will everyone do it? No way.
You get a passive player holding a TcTd and he may just be thinking "someone's got a better flush".

I don't believe you can be sure that no one has a better hand. Not at all. As I say, just statistically it's 75% that you're beaten. We can say we think it less likely because of their play, but it's not impossible, and hardly improbable.

Part two then is will they fold? Now here we've got a chance because if the Tc is playing passively they're probably scared of the Q and J. A bet may scare them off the pot. Our bluff works.

This MAY be a good bluff; personally I don't think so. It may buy you 50% of the split instead of 1/6th; but it will also often cost you your bet.

From the other side, how about the "donks" who folded? I don't think they can be criticised so heavily for folding to someone who could be sitting there holding TcTx.

Betting gains you information... Checking to the wachovia crowd gains you NO info.
You might as well walk away from the table, walk back into the casino and put a $5 bill into a slot machine and pull the lever like my mom.

Or, alternatively, play when you've got a better hand than your opponents. Not the equal worst hand (which if you're lucky happens to be the equal best hand).

I wasn't expecting such a spirited discussion. I was mearly trying to lighten the mood with maybe something other than a bad beat story. I just found it funny the way this hand played out. With the four tables I've been playing the last four or five times, things like this are happening alot. Yes, I know I could have lost, but I didn't. Between guys not knowing what the nuts are in a given hand and thinking that pairing up a K in a Kx hand is worth dollar bets ++ on the river with 2 aces on board, I was going a little crazy not having someone to show and tell. Friday and Saturday nights are insane with people buying in with $3.50 @10NL or people chasing double gutshots and paying through the nose. Even at 25NL it's just as bad. I tried one table for two hours, but without the BR I couldn't call or raise alot of the stupid bets for fear of losing. I just wanted to see if the reg. 25NL has the same sort of players as the beginner tables 10NL and 5NL because4 after some time you can't play them any more. Also does anyone know a good hand converter because these two hands that I tried from party both had problems on FTR's and bad beats. I use the hotmail email as well. Could it be the way I cut and paste or is it a setting that I'm missing?

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I wasn't expecting such a spirited discussion. I was mearly trying to lighten the mood with maybe something other than a bad beat story. I just found it funny the way this hand played out. With the four tables I've been playing the last four or five times, things like this are happening alot. Yes, I know I could have lost, but I didn't. Between guys not knowing what the nuts are in a given hand and thinking that pairing up a K in a Kx hand is worth dollar bets ++ on the river with 2 aces on board, I was going a little crazy not having someone to show and tell.

Yeah, you got some debate here
Of course the hand worked out well for you and we don't begrudge you the win. I mean, folding to an FTR member's raise should be part of standard poker rules, eh? (If you're not yourself a member ).

I know what you mean about the wanting to vent etc. It can be frustrating at this level when you get people betting trips the same way they bet A-high...

Friday and Saturday nights are insane with people buying in with $3.50 @10NL or people chasing double gutshots and paying through the nose. Even at 25NL it's just as bad. I tried one table for two hours, but without the BR I couldn't call or raise alot of the stupid bets for fear of losing.

Probably get shot for saying this but... why not just play it? I mean, you're bankrolled for ONE game of $25nl so long as you have $25. If you can take it out of your roll without leaving yourself underrolled for you standard 5NL or 10NL game then why not?
If you're going to play a table, play it.

I've got my spreadsheet where I enter each buy-in and cash out and I always put $0 by cash-out until proven otherwise. That money's gone as far as I'm concerned. I look at my BR and that's my new BR total, if I can't live with that it's time to yank the money back off the table.

If you just want to see how the game works at 25NL then just observe.

Of course $25NL on Party is where the fish go after their 45 day quarantine. Those who haven't been eaten by larger fish, that is.

Gentlemen,
Please accept my sincere apologies for taking this too far. I do appreciate your comments and criticism.

I just take it personally cause I'm a fish...

I have wasted so much time typing and retyping my responses to this one hand. I hope I don't see any made flushes soon on a real table, as it's certain to tilt me into the rail.

Still not sure about this whole "12 card" thing and I'm pretty sure that people missed the idea (or not) that I was roleplaying the hypothetical villain with QcX or T7c, but neither was really the point anyway.

My fragile and somewhat fishy attempt to summarize my feelings:

Folding is better than betting, unless you have something, or you know something. (preferably both)
Betting is better than checking
Checking is better than... betting when you know nothing and have nothing?

If everyone is checking... I think you know something. And if you what you know is wrong, then you know something else for later.

In case you were wondering, I have on several occasions folded to a check.
When I have nothing, Know I have nothing, and Know that my nothing is very likely worse than everyone elses (ie: I am not prepared to call someones bluff).

And it tilts my opponents off like crazy.
"What are you thinking?"
"You could have had a free card!!! "
"WTF!!!"
Meanwhile, I am moving on to the next hand and they are freaking out. (sort of like I did in my earlier posts) .

So once again, seriously, no anger here, but there is a point where you must look at the odds, know the right thing is to check it down, and bet anyway because noone else is and they probably won't call. ("probably" is naturally a judgement [not math] call, which is why people play better than bots).

There's math, there's fish, and then there's poker, which has both.

And I still hate this hand.

So were you really upset here? It was hard to tell.. and doesn't
matter man

More of a philosophical "anti-checking rage" than a personal "hate you" sort of anger.
But yeah, I was upset.
Think Helmuth without the BR or the skills... and too much time at work that I can't actually PLAY poker during. Just rant about it. LOL

Actually it helped me play better later. Got all my "poker-mad" out before I hit the tables. Still not cool to take it out on well meaning forumites...

And then there's the diligent players who are carefully cross referencing my PS id and noting "check twice in a row to TILT this guy"

Good thing we are all fish...