calling raises with mediocre and just plain bad hands

Ok i have seen several vids where one pro or the other will say that it is perfectly fine to call a raise with a hand like 7/8 off so long as you and villan are both deeply stacked enough. My question is how deep do we need to be? I mean if villan raises utg and it is folded around to me in lp and my hand is lets say 5/6 suited. I do the math and lets say the effective stack is 40x the cost of a call. is that deep enough?

The way to think about it is like this. You will hit two pair on the flop 2.2% of the time, trips 1.4% and a flush 0.8% and a full house 0.1%, so you hit a big hand on the flop about 4.5% of the time. Assuming opp stacks off every single time you hit a big hand (and doesn't redraw against you) then you need to be able to win 22.2x the amount you need to call to give you implied odds (ie. you need effective stacks of 22.2x the cost of your call).

However, opps generally won't stack off every time so you need to add some extra implied odds to take this into account. With ATC the correct number depends on how bad opp is (ie. will he stack off with Ax on an A65 flop?) but may well be 40-50x or so the amount we need to call.

That said, with suited connectors there is the possibility of flopping a monster draw such as an OESFD which increases the number of times we flop something worth continuing with. Not sure how to calculate this however, anybody else?

EDIT: The implied odds calculation above is why min raising preflop is such a bad idea in cash games and tourneys when blinds are low. BB gets such monster implied odds to call with any two trash cards and stack you if he/she flops something nice.

Originally Posted by taipan168

The way to think about it is like this. You will hit two pair on the flop 2.2% of the time, trips 1.4% and a flush 0.8% and a full house 0.1%, so you hit a big hand on the flop about 4.5% of the time. Assuming opp stacks off every single time you hit a big hand (and doesn't redraw against you) then you need to be able to win 22.2x the amount you need to call to give you implied odds (ie. you need effective stacks of 22.2x the cost of your call).

However, opps generally won't stack off every time so you need to add some extra implied odds to take this into account. With ATC the correct number depends on how bad opp is (ie. will he stack off with Ax on an A65 flop?) but may well be 40-50x or so the amount we need to call.

That said, with suited connectors there is the possibility of flopping a monster draw such as an OESFD which increases the number of times we flop something worth continuing with. Not sure how to calculate this however, anybody else?

EDIT: The implied odds calculation above is why min raising preflop is such a bad idea in cash games and tourneys when blinds are low. BB gets such monster implied odds to call with any two trash cards and stack you if he/she flops something nice.

so does this mean if you are in late position, with someone UTG holding a large stack (200+BB), you pretty much have implied odds on any suited connecter when UTG raises the standard 4xbb ? assuming UTG is tight and likes his cards ?

sort of. but, YOU need to be 200 bb deep, as well. otherwise, you wont get his whole stack.

"effective" stacks need to be 22.5 X or 40X...whatever the calculations come out to be.

To take the point to the extreme if the stacks are big enough and the villan plays poorly enough one expert said he will call a raise with any 2 cards.

I used to read these kind of comments and forget: that pro will VERY SELECTIVELY raise any two cards in a specific situation on a specific read, often after waiting for dozens or hundreds of hands to make the play. Certain plays are only effective in certain situations.

By the way, how big is the "EV" we're talking about here? With hands like AA and KK, my EV is 7.63 BB / hand (2.3 for KK). With 87s, my EV is 0.01 BB / hand. Sure, the pros and some good amateurs can make hands like 87s pay off positively over 100k hands. But it will never amount to the kind of dollars that will make or break your game or will turn a losing player into a winning one. Worse, it's capable of turning a winning player into a losing one by chasing the tiny +EV in dicy situations that are difficult to read instead of the huge +EV in your basic ABC TAGG poker.

Case in point:

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($9.40)
Hero ($10.27)
MP1 ($10.09)
MP2 ($4.12)
CO ($14.91)
BTN ($2.02)
SB ($5.72)
BB ($4.90)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 8 players) Hero is UTG 1
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.35, 2 folds, CO calls $0.35, 1 fold, SB calls $0.3, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.15, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.15, CO calls $1.15, SB folds

Turn: ($3.45, 2 players)
Hero bets $3.45, CO calls $3.45

River: ($10.35, 2 players)
Hero goes all-in $5.32, CO calls $5.32

Final Pot: $20.99
Hero shows:
CO shows:

CO wins $19.95 ( won $9.68 )
SB lost -$0.35
Hero lost -$10.27

And I was worried about A3. LoL. Villain played it horrid pre, OK on the flop if he actually considered implied odds. I blew it on the turn and river, thinking I had fold equity plus a reasonable shot at the better hand.