C-Betting at 25nl

Negative variance has been kicking in for me like something fierce for the last 2.5k hands or so at 25nl on party and its causing me to second guess my strategy.

I think one of my biggest chip spews is coming from C-Bets. I am running a VPIP of about 15%, so It isn't that I have a loose image or anything. My C-Bets just aren't getting respect at all. So every time I have AK, and flop comes something like 9.77 and I fire out a bet, they call me or reraise all in practically every time. So thats like 10-20 BB down the drain every time.

I wanted to hear from some other players who have experienced success at this level. What is your technique for continuation betting. Do you do it every time? Do you only do it on unscary flops? Do you vary the size of your bets at all, depending on flop tone? Does cbetting even work enough at this level to be more profitable than just throwing your hand away everytime you miss?

For what it's worth, I've cut down on my c-bets and have been running really well. Hard to tell if the two correlate. Certainly if you're opening as many pots as I am for a raise, blasting away 100% of the time is ill-advised.

When it comes to pair boards, it quite often the case both parties missed. Sometimes the other guy is willing to press the issue. It often comes down to who has more balls or a better starting hand. You kinda have to figure out how to get the best of those.

Different meta-game, but with a couple twists I think it's just good poker given my opponent.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($9.40)
BB (Ripptyde) ($41.50)
UTG ($22.10)
MP ($41.15)
Fnord ($25.90)
Button ($42.50)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with K, Q.
2 folds, Fnord raises to $1, 2 folds, BB (Ripptyde) calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) 9, J, 3 (2 players)
Ripptyde checks, Fnord checks.

Turn: ($2.10) 7 (2 players)
Ripptyde bets $1, Fnord calls $1.

River: ($4.10) 5 (2 players)
Ripptyde bets $2, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: $6.10

Results in white below:
Ripptyde shows Qc Jd.
Outcome: Ripptyde wins $6.10.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($24.50)
SB (Ripptyde) ($41.25)
BB ($33.35)
UTG ($39.15)
Fnord ($27.85)
CO ($40.40)

Preflop: Fnord is MP with K, J.
UTG calls $0.25, Fnord raises to $1, 2 folds, SB (Ripptyde) calls $0.90, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: ($2.50) A, K, 4 (2 players)
Ripptyde checks, Fnord checks.

Turn: ($2.50) 2 (2 players)
Ripptyde bets $1, Fnord calls $1.

River: ($4.50) 2 (2 players)
Ripptyde bets $2, Fnord calls $2.

Final Pot: $8.50

Results in white below:
Ripptyde has Ac 7c (two pair, aces and twos).
Fnord has Kc Js (two pair, kings and twos).
Outcome: Ripptyde wins $8.50.

In the hand prior to this, I had KK and had to lay it down. The shorter stack ended up being a blessing.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($23.25)
SB (Ripptyde) ($46.25)
BB ($39.55)
UTG ($41.05)
Fnord ($18.50)
CO ($41.20)

Preflop: Fnord is MP with A, Q.
UTG calls $0.25, Fnord raises to $1, 2 folds, SB (Ripptyde) calls $0.90, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: ($2.50) 7, 6, T (2 players)
Ripptyde checks, Fnord bets $1.5, Ripptyde raises to $4.5, Fnord raises to $17.5, Ripptyde folds.

Final Pot: $24.50

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins $24.50.

I think I'm good here a lot, fail that Rippy is capable of laying down a King.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($24.60)
BB (Ripptyde) ($41.35)
UTG ($35.15)
MP ($40.80)
Fnord ($33.15)
Button ($40.25)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with A, Q.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Fnord raises to $1, 2 folds, BB (Ripptyde) raises to $3, MP folds, Fnord calls $2.

Flop: ($6.35) K, 6, Q (2 players)
Ripptyde bets $3.5, Fnord calls $3.50.

Turn: ($13.35) 8 (2 players)
Ripptyde bets $10.25, Fnord raises to $26.65, Ripptyde folds.

Final Pot: $50.25

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins $50.25.

on 25NL u usually want to do it against single opponents on dry flops aka Q72, K95, 34J. Im also alot more likly to do it with an Ace high hand (AT,AJ) then with a hand like KQ , KJ and such cause your A high can often win when the hand is checked down efter some fish calls your C-bet withan inside draw or Ace-high. Trying to do it against multiple opponenst is usually a bad idea.
And by the way.. Thinking youll get more respect on your bets because of your low VP$IP is to overestimate the skill level on 25$

Originally Posted by Renton

I wanted to hear from some other players who have experienced success at this level. What is your technique for continuation betting.

I've played far too many hands at this level over the past year or so. This is my take on it:

Heads up to the flop: First to act I will c-bet pretty much every time, checking here is tantamount to giving your opponent the pot right there. If I have position and a single opp checks it to me, again I will very rarely check behind. You don't need a fold every time to make this profitable. If you bet around 2/3 the pot, as long as your opp is folding this 50% of the time, you should show a nice profit.

Three to the flop: Whether I c-bet here is a little more dependent on my opponents and the board. If my opponents have position on me and I don't have a pair, i may well give up the pot. I hate spewing chips out of position. In positon I'm betting maybe 50% of the time here. Don't be afraid to take the odd free card if they check. Say you raise AK on the button and the flop comes QJ9. I would take the free card here, as I don't think I will get enough folds on this board - better to take your free card for the gutshot draw.

Four or more to the flop: Don't bother

C-Bet sizes: I try to bet the same as I would if I had hit my hand. 1/2 - 2/3 pot on a draw free board, 2/3 - 3/4 pot on a draw heavy board.

Obviously all this is all a little general, and specific reads will help alot. As to whether it is profitable, I haven't looked at my stats, but my feeling is that they are at least breaking even for me (and I play on FISHY tables). Also, constant C-betting will disguise your hand when you do hit. Nice to raise pocket tens, make your standard bet when you hit your set, and some fool decides now is the time to take a stand.

remember: c-bets are not required. Betting every flop that you raise preflop is horrible, despite what you may have read on FTR. So, if you raise AK EP and get 2 loose callers behind, and your c-bets have been getting no respect, don't be afraid to c/f that flop when you only have ace-high.

Depending on many factors, of which randomness is only a small one, I'd venture a guess and say I'm c-betting half the flops I miss.

Don't c-bet when you don't hit the flop with AK against a bunch of callers in EP.

Even a check from EP with a few callers holding AA isn't a bad idea either. This game is about information, and the more you have, the more of an advatage you have over your opponents. A check from you gives no info. to villain, and a check + their bet = building the pot...which will give you more knowledge from which to make a decision.

Pick a % of the flop to bet for your c-bets and pretty much just c-bet every flop you get a chance to. Get a piece of paper and record every c-bet you make for a certain ammount of time and work out if they show a profit.

If c-bets are really unsuccessful then stop doing them. I doubt they are getting called by players who are thinking and putting you on a AK, its probably just calling stations who don't want to fold their cards. This being the case, raise less bb's preflop with AK/AQ.. You'll get more callers whick will create as big a pot as you were getting before with your bigger PFR but this time you can check/fold when you miss with less personal loss.

I like to raise 3Xbb with AK/AQ because I will miss the flop 2/3 of the time. A small raise preflop will minimize my c-bet loss if I miss and villain calls.

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

I like to raise 3Xbb with AK/AQ because I will miss the flop 2/3 of the time. A small raise preflop will minimize my c-bet loss if I miss and villain calls.

that seems weak IMO.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

I like to raise 3Xbb with AK/AQ because I will miss the flop 2/3 of the time. A small raise preflop will minimize my c-bet loss if I miss and villain calls.

that seems weak IMO.

You're totally right. Allow me to correct/elaborate.

AQ in EP I may limp or raise 3x. In LP I'll raise at least 4x and maybe re-raise an initial raise.

AK in EP I will raise AT LEAST 3xbb. Usually re-raise an initial raise in position, and raise at least 4 or 5xbb in LP.

Both however, vary according to stack sizes, # of players, and image. I'm just not one to get carried away in a pot where I have ace high.

If you are in position, and they check to you feel free to check behind if you know they will call anyway (especially on paired board when you hold AK or AQ since they may have a pair). If they check the turn, then fire out a large bet as they are unlikely to check it to you on the flop and turn if they actually hit something. Plus, you never know if you'll make your hand on the turn.

If you are OOP, mix it up. Cbet, check, check-call, check-fold, check-raise. As you move up, you'll see people raise your 1/2 pot cbet all the time - especially when the board has like 2 sooted. Why? Because if you hit your hand and there were 2 sooted, you would protect it by betting 3/4 or full pot, right? Sometimes I cbet full pot with 2 sooted to pretend I'm protecting. It's all about mixing it up. If you cbet 1/2 pot every time your tight-ass raises preflop and fold to a reraise - even at 25NL somebody will catch on. Everyone and their mother cbets 1/2 pot at 25NL now.