C-Bet's being called.

One of the things that has worked well for me since I started really improving my game is raising PF with most hands that I am playing when limped or folded to me and 3-betting a slightly wider range. I also am regularly C-betting and, at times, taking down lots of pots preflop.

The problem I have is certain players (especially when I've been playing 10nl) who I feel are starting to float me looking to take down the pot on later streets. (Seems like the perfect adjustment to me). So, I am trying to decide how to counter-adjust, and how to tell when they are just floating with high cards, calling with a hand (even a decent pair), or calling with a draw

The idea's that I can come up with are:
1) Cbet less often when I miss, especially oop, and when against several opponents
2) Be willing to fire 2nd barrel more often against players who seem to be calling a lot of cbets.

I have some issues with those answers though.

It seems to me like not betting after raising preflop is just begging to have someone bet at me with very little to nothing. I could counter this by occasionally not cbetting when I do hit, but that just seems wrong.

I've also found that when a villain calls a cbet, they don't seem to fold to 2nd barrels often and now and then when I do decide to fire again after the river, they end up frequently having hands when I go this far (what a suprise, they didn't fold when they had a hand!) But at the same time, if it's the same player(s) regularly calling my cbets, they can't always have something unless they are only calling my PF raises w/ pocket pairs...and they ARE calling with more than that.

The players that I'm really having a hard time w/ are players w/ AF of 2-3 (or more), yet they are only calling me when I bet. Doesn't that stat mean they are more likely to bet when they have hands and fold when they don't as opposed to calling? What are they calling with? Draws? All the time? I feel like they are just using my aggression against me.

When I get raised, it's usually pretty clear what to do...it's the calls that throw me off.

I guess I just feel like "they are on to me and what I'm doing" yet I don't want to stop because this is what has been helping me get action on my big hands. When I've experimented with c-betting less I lose those small pots, but also don't get calls when I want them w/ big hands.

I know that much of this depends on reads (like everything else), but I'm curious how others have dealt with this issue when dealing with different sorts of players.

How selective are you when it comes to cbetting? Are you throwing money at any board or just boards that opponents think actually hit your range?

Most of these donks are just playing there cards, but board texture still matters.

Also position is much more important in cash. If your hu on the flop and you check there is a big difference between seeing the next card and seeing a bet fired at you. Wierdly in sng's you almost sometimes want to act first so you can fire first.

As important as it is to have and understand your own strategy I think watching the other players and taking notes is equally important because if they are floating you they are floating others - you don't have to pay them to understand them. Usually these players are not good enough not to pay you back plus more when you do have a hand. Use their habits against them.

Play a low limit. Costs less to learn and you don't feel so bad when your thinking is off and its great fun place to be creative. (everyone will tell u abc..)

People with AggFactor < 1 are calling far too much/never raise/bet, 3/4+ never call just fold or raise. There is nothing wrong with check folding oop while the pot is small because essentially you can only have made a small mistake if you have - playing a big pot with no hand oop is a often big mistake.

Usually when the aggro players slow down, that's when the little light should come on. Why is he not betting "this time". When someone peels a flop, this is the time to look at what they can call with. Are there straight draws, are there Flush draws? Is the board likely to have hit their range? If you have not hit the flop after raising, yes you need to C bet. But if you have AQo and the flop is TJ4 w/ 2 hearts, there are going to be a lot of calls. Think of the hands that call that flop.

go into PT and look at a ton of hands. Look at what the board looks like, what would you call with? Should you bet? mostly yes, but when they call, it's time to shut down without a hand, or draw. Also, if they are calling and your second barreling, what are you repping. If they call a K76 two flush flop and the turn is a 4hearts, would a K fold now? Don't just stop Cbetting, but start thinking about what? why?

If you use a hud, you may want to add the fold to C bet stat as well.

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

One of the things that has worked well for me since I started really improving my game is raising PF with most hands that I am playing when limped or folded to me and 3-betting a slightly wider range. I also am regularly C-betting and, at times, taking down lots of pots preflop.

The problem I have is certain players (especially when I've been playing 10nl) who I feel are starting to float me looking to take down the pot on later streets. (Seems like the perfect adjustment to me). So, I am trying to decide how to counter-adjust, and how to tell when they are just floating with high cards, calling with a hand (even a decent pair), or calling with a draw

The idea's that I can come up with are:
1) Cbet less often when I miss, especially oop, and when against several opponents
2) Be willing to fire 2nd barrel more often against players who seem to be calling a lot of cbets.

I have some issues with those answers though.

It seems to me like not betting after raising preflop is just begging to have someone bet at me with very little to nothing. I could counter this by occasionally not cbetting when I do hit, but that just seems wrong.

I've also found that when a villain calls a cbet, they don't seem to fold to 2nd barrels often and now and then when I do decide to fire again after the river, they end up frequently having hands when I go this far (what a suprise, they didn't fold when they had a hand!) But at the same time, if it's the same player(s) regularly calling my cbets, they can't always have something unless they are only calling my PF raises w/ pocket pairs...and they ARE calling with more than that.

The players that I'm really having a hard time w/ are players w/ AF of 2-3 (or more), yet they are only calling me when I bet. Doesn't that stat mean they are more likely to bet when they have hands and fold when they don't as opposed to calling? What are they calling with? Draws? All the time? I feel like they are just using my aggression against me.

When I get raised, it's usually pretty clear what to do...it's the calls that throw me off.

I guess I just feel like "they are on to me and what I'm doing" yet I don't want to stop because this is what has been helping me get action on my big hands. When I've experimented with c-betting less I lose those small pots, but also don't get calls when I want them w/ big hands.

I know that much of this depends on reads (like everything else), but I'm curious how others have dealt with this issue when dealing with different sorts of players.

I myself have run into two straight days of this. One guy blatenly said you cbet 100% of the time so I'm raising you with ATCs. If any of the regs would like to give their input and strategy on this please do so.

Originally Posted by pankfish

How selective are you when it comes to cbetting? Are you throwing money at any board or just boards that opponents think actually hit your range?
Most of these donks are just playing there cards, but board texture still matters.

Probably not selective enough. I'm usually cbetting, but not every time.

I guess I'm have a hard time figuring out which board textures I should be cbetting...or more accurately, which ones I shouldn't be.

Flops w/ draws: I feel like I should bet to avoid giving free draws. (acting as if I really had a hand is the key here, right?) Calls worry me here because I can't feel there are always on the draw here, but I'd still have to give up if a potential draw hit.

Flops w/ big cards: I feel like I should bet because my PF raise indicates I often have big cards, but at the same time callers of PF raises often have big cards as well, so calls on these boards are easier to get away from if I missed.

Flops w/ low cards: If callers of PF raises often have big cards, they probably missed on these flops...but so did I if I raised PF w/ big cards...can they/do they call hoping their missed hand is better than mine?

Originally Posted by MuddyWicket

As important as it is to have and understand your own strategy I think watching the other players and taking notes is equally important because if they are floating you they are floating others - you don't have to pay them to understand them.

This is something I can surely work on.

Regarding the bolded section, I feel like I'm being floated more than others because I am cbetting frequently. Am I giving these guys too much credit in thinking they can adjust to me while not doing this against others?

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

When someone peels a flop, this is the time to look at what they can call with.

Could you explain what you mean by this? This is the only part of your I didn't really get.

I also like the idea about digging through PT. I know I don't do near enough of that. I have a hard time NOT playing when I'm sitting down at the computer involving myself in poker related stuff.

Originally Posted by Pythonic

I myself have run into two straight days of this. One guy blatenly said you cbet 100% of the time so I'm raising you with ATCs.

Well, first I'd stop cbetting 100% if you really are...especially oop. Then push back the first few times you do have hands to see how he reacts. If he gives up, then you know you can push back now and then with nothing, but not so much he stops giving up to your follow-up pressure. Hopefully enough of that will slow him down raising you every time.

If he doesn't show any respect for your return pressure, just wait for big hands and get paid.

BUT, take my advice with a grain of salt...I'm obviously struggling with this too.

It's nowhere near 100% but I am doing it with pp's or AK, AQ in position. The hand he reraised me on i had QQ and there was just a K high on the board so I was okay folding that. He said he raised me with rags though so whatever.

Originally Posted by Pythonic

It's nowhere near 100% but I am doing it with pp's or AK, AQ in position. The hand he reraised me on i had QQ and there was just a K high on the board so I was okay folding that. He said he raised me with rags though so whatever.

You seem very focused on what your hand is, not flop texture and opps range which is far more important.

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

When someone peels a flop, this is the time to look at what they can call with.

Could you explain what you mean by this? This is the only part of your I didn't really get.

What I am saying is C betting is only part of the equation. When you raise AQo in late position and get a caller from the blinds, you need to C bet, but you need to think about the board, the opponent and the pot. If the flop hit's your hand, it's an obvious situation when checked to. But if the flop is Kd 9s 7d, and you C bet what appears to be a decent flop and get called, what is your next play? Shut down or 2 barrel, right? Well, what called that flop? What would yuo call with on that flop? Wht does the turn card do to the callers range of hands he would have? Now, should you fire again if the turn is a spade? Maybe a Qd? What if it's a Jh?

Originally Posted by badgers

Originally Posted by Pythonic

It's nowhere near 100% but I am doing it with pp's or AK, AQ in position. The hand he reraised me on i had QQ and there was just a K high on the board so I was okay folding that. He said he raised me with rags though so whatever.

You seem very focused on what your hand is, not flop texture and opps range which is far more important.

This is key to understanding C betting a ton

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Originally Posted by badgers

Originally Posted by Pythonic

It's nowhere near 100% but I am doing it with pp's or AK, AQ in position. The hand he reraised me on i had QQ and there was just a K high on the board so I was okay folding that. He said he raised me with rags though so whatever.

You seem very focused on what your hand is, not flop texture and opps range which is far more important.

This is key to understanding C betting a ton

I was out of position and was first to act. Villian was like 24/10. Of course I have to fire out with QQ on a K high board to see where I am at right? Or is better to check and then reraise him if he bets to see if my Qs are still good?

If you fire on the flop any non K usually folds. If you get called on a K 85r board you still have no idea where you stand, since it could be 99 77 or a draw. It is still possible to make more money from 99 77 or even AJ when they fire the river to pick up the pot after checking through. If your going to bet, save it to call a bet an try to get paid by hands you beat, not fold out hands you do beat.

Jyms, would you fold QQ though if you get reraised 2.5-3x with a K high on a dry board?

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Originally Posted by Hawkfan79

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

When someone peels a flop, this is the time to look at what they can call with.

Could you explain what you mean by this? This is the only part of your I didn't really get.

What I am saying is C betting is only part of the equation. When you raise AQo in late position and get a caller from the blinds, you need to C bet, but you need to think about the board, the opponent and the pot. If the flop hit's your hand, it's an obvious situation when checked to. But if the flop is Kd 9s 7d, and you C bet what appears to be a decent flop and get called, what is your next play? Shut down or 2 barrel, right? Well, what called that flop? What would yuo call with on that flop? Wht does the turn card do to the callers range of hands he would have? Now, should you fire again if the turn is a spade? Maybe a Qd? What if it's a Jh?

Thanks trainer. This is perfect. Just the kind of thinking I need to be doing.

Here's my take on what would happen if I was the villain in the blinds on the Kd 9s 7d flop question. Preflop there I'm rr'ing with AK and QQ+ and folding KQ and worse plus all the sc's (unless the button is a complete fish). I don't want to play junk oop against something I think is decent. If I think he's on a steal too often, I'll pick a spot to raise, not call, to try to punish him. Some I'm calling here with pp's - JJ and less. And then, I'm only likely to check the flop if I hit a set. I'd c-bet myself with most pp's on this board. Check-call? Against me, you could probably guess: set, set, set. (My only protection against this read is that I also bet right out when I flop sets fairly often, too. But I do check-call against agro villains who might fire two barrels - villains who play like me!!)

This whole thread has been revelation. What called the flop? The only scenario that would cause me to have that betting pattern is a set. So why don't I even consider that when it happens to me? Why do I c-bet mindlessly just based on my cards, my position and my HUD stats? His range, positional thinking and read on me might have SOMETHING to do with it. Jeez, I can play this game like real dumbass sometimes.

WOW, GREAT THREAD ! ! ! !
can someone please add more examples????