bored and want to give back...

sometimes you spend soooo much time in the forums posting and reposting that you get bored, yes?

well, i'm somewhat there. and, i want to spice things up...if possible.

i just went through the beginner's digest and stickies to sort of skim those articles. i wanted to see how much, if anything, has changed since these have been updated. well, a lot is still the same.

if you really want a good RE-read, and are on a downswing that is questioning the very depths of your soul, GO HERE....

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ath-t9214.html

seriously, you wont regret that one.

so, i originally wanted to run an update...to keep things current. but, i think that would be a colossal waste of time. why re-invent the wheel, right?

lets do this. IF YOUR ARE SERIOUS, and beginning your poker career, you should read all those articles in the digest. but, and i'm asking you newer guys, if there is anything that isnt already discussed, let's get it discussed.

i'm asking the new guys because YOU are the ones with questions. us older farts have asked a lot in the past, or are asking our new questions in other forums.

just want to know if this is even worth trying...so fire away.

Loved the newbie circle of death post as it hits the maturation process perfectly.

Let me make a suggestion to add on to Chopper's request. If you feel like you are in one of the earlier stages of the circle post your questions and/or situations here so we can discuss how to help get past them.

Great idea Chopper.

wow, i AM bored. thanks for jumping in, Gator.

to add to Gator...if you are posting a HH, no problem, but dont just post it and say, "how's my line?" this is a beginner's forum. no question is TOO dumb.

please post your thoughts with it, preferably right in the HH where you had said thought.

other questions that are fair game, to me, would be:
- bonus chasing, for US players...someone else will have to do the non-US stuff.
- technology/software familiarization
- theory/image
- table/seat selection

i could go on, but i think we are all getting the point. a WIDER THAN WIDE range of topics will be discussed, and some, hopefully, will get split off into separate threads once they show significant "teeth."

can you post a PT shot of your last 20K-40K hands? I have been getting a lot of questions regarding winrates, and since your our resident authority on Micro stakes and only play them for fun, it would be interesting to see. I just don't play them enough, but I am sure you have a ton of hands

I don't get this thread, you want us newbies to re-read the entire beginner's digest or to only re-read the beginner's circle of death? and in any case where do you want us to reply? in this thread or on the links to "discuss here" in those threads?

anyways as for me, I'm still reading and watching all the stuff on the beginner's digest for the first time (since I just started last weekend)... I'm actually re-reading some of the threads on strategy that I found important to be able to remember it by heart.

Also could you tell me what HH means?!?!

Originally Posted by Xptboy2

Also could you tell me what HH means?!?!

hand history

I'll put this post here as well since I think you guys could answer it here as well as just my thread

Here's a little more specific question on bankroll though (I still got 50 dollars in my poker account btw). Ever since I decided to quit experimenting wth two-tabling I find myself making a lot more money (now I only play at one table at a time and find logical decisions much easier to make), so I decided to move up from 2.5 dollar (max 5) buy-in at 0.01/0.02 tables to 3 dollar (max10) buy-in 0.05/0.10 with a buy-in of 3 which is basically only a 0.5 raise in buy-in, so far I've only played two 1hr sessions but together I ended up winning 10dollars which I consider really good. Do you think I'm playing at tables which have too big blinds for me or is my change logical?

Also I could tell multi-tabling wasn't for me since I actually gained money at 60% of my tables but ended up losing more money than I gained at the other 40% of tables, which I interpret as showing that on some particular hands I didn't read the other player or the board well enough to determine my odds so I decided to go all-in.

Originally Posted by Xptboy2

I'll put this post here as well since I think you guys could answer it here as well as just my thread

Here's a little more specific question on bankroll though (I still got 50 dollars in my poker account btw). Ever since I decided to quit experimenting wth two-tabling I find myself making a lot more money (now I only play at one table at a time and find logical decisions much easier to make), so I decided to move up from 2.5 dollar (max 5) buy-in at 0.01/0.02 tables to 3 dollar (max10) buy-in 0.05/0.10 with a buy-in of 3 which is basically only a 0.5 raise in buy-in, so far I've only played two 1hr sessions but together I ended up winning 10dollars which I consider really good. Do you think I'm playing at tables which have too big blinds for me or is my change logical?

Also I could tell multi-tabling wasn't for me since I actually gained money at 60% of my tables but ended up losing more money than I gained at the other 40% of tables, which I interpret as showing that on some particular hands I didn't read the other player or the board well enough to determine my odds so I decided to go all-in.

First of all, I would recommend staying with one table until your play becomes more "automatic", meaning you have a good understanding of the many basics that make up a solid poker player. As for your question on bankroll I pulled the following statement out of the bankroll management sticky:

"You can find the accurate numbers for a proper bankroll all over this great forum of ours. But I like 15-30 buyins for No Limit (Maybe even more for 6max), 300BB for limit and 15+ buyins for tournies (More for MTTs). If you play a little from column A (limit) and a little from columb B (Tournies or NL) a good rule of thumb for your bankroll size is never risk more than 5-10% of it on any given day."

Although I play SNG's I am pretty confident that most ring players use the "Max buy in" as the guide for buy ins, not the minimum. If you are not sitting down with the max available chips you are losing a ton of equity in building your stack on the times that you hit a big hand.

If you only have $50 in your account you should definitely stick to the 0.01/0.02 tables till you can sit down with the max stack at the next highest level and still have 14+ buyins left.

meh ok, I guess I'll go back to my 0.01/0.02 tables since I know that in the long run if I can make some bucks at these small tables then maybe I coud move on, even though it's gonna be frustrating winning at these tables when I think I could be winning at the higher end tables

how much money do you think should be in my bankroll before I can move on to 0.02/0.05 and then 0.05/0.1

btw, my plan is still to only keep buying-in with 5% of my bankroll (basically I was small-stacking at the 0.05/0.1 table and it was working quite well)


EDIT: do you more experienced guys think that it is a realistic goal to believe that I can increase my bankroll from 50 dollars to 600 dollars by June/July this year (by then I am pretty sure I will have at least gotten my 100% bonus payback for my first deposit which was 50 dollars)

I would like to jump in here and point out that I believe the Bankroll Management sticky quoted above is a little out of date.

I believe this was written when the games were a little softer and good players had a much lower standard deviation and higher winrates.

I can't really comment on NL guidelines as I have very little experience with it. But, 300BB (that's big bets, NOT big blinds) for LHE games is far far to low for todays games, especially so if you are playng shorthanded (eg 6max) games. I would recommend a minimum of 400BB for full ring and a minimum of 600BB for 6-max.

Obviously this does not mean if you have a $600 starting bankroll and start at 0.5/1 that you must drop limits as soon as you lose 1BB, the 600BB is there to absorb these swings. If for example you dropped to 450BB you might want to consider dropping down a level to rebuild your roll, you don't want to wait until you have the bare minimum for the level below before you drop down stakes for 2 reasons:

1) It will take much longer to grind back up a level
2) The patern could repeat and you may find yourself having to drop down another level fairly quicky.



My apologies if this post is structured terribly but I'm currently 5-tabling 6max LHE.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

can you post a PT shot of your last 20K-40K hands? I have been getting a lot of questions regarding winrates, and since your our resident authority on Micro stakes and only play them for fun, it would be interesting to see. I just don't play them enough, but I am sure you have a ton of hands

sorry, TJ, been in chat all day. you guys have to come in there, too. good times.

its going to have to come in parts. i just recently started another db. i will include all 3 for your viewing pleasure. lol. if i knew how to merge them or somehow combine the graphs, i would do that. any computer geeks figure that one out yet?

here is the entire year of '07. i played a lot of O8, stud, limit. those arent in there. this is the NL, and only the 25NL and 10NL stats. the thumbnail will be broken into 4 parts...from top to bottom...

1)full ring 25NL and full ring 10NL from Jan07 through Sept07.
2)6max 25NL and 10NL same dates as 1.
3)fullring 25 and 10 from Oct07 through end of year.
4)6max 25 and 10 same dates as 3.

[img][/img]

the reason i went back to the beginning of the year was because that 2nd database (shots 3 and 4) was the sickest run of cards i've ever been on...period. it lasted the longest. it hurt the most. it threw my confidence straight into the crapper for 50k hands. its not impressive, but its not indicative of my play, either. i will never claim to be a pro, but i will claim to soundly beat the micros.

that is a lesson, hopefully, to newer players going through "variance spurred by poor play." we ALL go through it. sometimes for more hands than you could ever imagine.

this is this year...

[img][/img]

not a ton of hands, but the discrepancy you may notice missing is 3,191 hands of 5NL. i like deepstack poker, and 5NL lets you buy in for $10 instead of $5. i ran 17/8.3/2.4 for a 18.2/100 rate, fwiw.

this is getting too long to post screenies of graphs. so, i will bow out of that one for awhile.

i will only ask that if you want to post your own stats, feel free. we will all look at them and tell you what we think. but, please, use some form of thumbnail or resizing (ask if you dont know how...i didnt until euph helped me a month ago). the really big screenies get annoying when they reformat the margins of the entire thread.

thanks.

xptboy, Gator did a good job, imo of handling your bankroll questions. i always assume 100bb buy-ins. and i want 30 for the level i play...minimum. so, for the 2NL level thats $60. and to move up to 5NL, you need $150.

if you get it by grinding...great. if you get it through bonus $$...also great. most will tell you to stay at the level you start until you are sure you beat it handily. i will tell you that if you have the roll, take your shot at the higher level. you may be able to beat that game. but, if you do take your shot, be ready to move down if things dont go well.

when do we move down? i'm so glad you asked. i will tell you (thanks again, spenda) that its when you have 40 BIs for the lower level. so, you hit a big run and want to take a shot at 5NL, great. you should w/ $150. but, when you hit 2NL X 40...or $80, you move back to 2NL, imo. this "method" should divert playing with "scared money" allowing you to play relatively fearless poker...at your best.

i also, agree with Jib. i think, for the serious, that 300 BBs is a bit small. i have read that pros play with 500 BBs and even more. as amateurs and hobbyists, play with what you can replenish...nobody will tell you thats wrong. but, if you want to move up in stakes, correctly, you should adhere to some form of bankroll management system. read around, and make up your own mind. i gave you the system i like best.

Originally Posted by Xptboy2

EDIT: do you more experienced guys think that it is a realistic goal to believe that I can increase my bankroll from 50 dollars to 600 dollars by June/July this year)

I'm not experienced, but I'll answer anyway!
go take a look at my first Blogs & Ops post (I think it's linked in the first post of my signature). Definitely possible. You'll be playing $5nl pretty soon, and learning to play more tables. And if you read the stickies, articles and forums here then apply what you learn, you can pwn $5nl for big winrates. Enjoy adding the first $500 to your bankroll!!!

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

can you post a PT shot of your last 20K-40K hands? I have been getting a lot of questions regarding winrates, and since your our resident authority on Micro stakes and only play them for fun, it would be interesting to see. I just don't play them enough, but I am sure you have a ton of hands

I've got 25k hands at $5nl on party if you want that. All it shows is that you can play crap cards (30-9) and still do ok. I think at the most micro, almost any pre-flop strategy can win dollars, but it's reliant on playing the flop smart-ish

Since you brought it up Chopper - I'll ask about bonuses at micro stakes..

When does it become important? Apart from that initial $20-100 deposit most of us make when first getting our feet wet sites like Stars don't seem to offer any reload bonus... How long should we wait (Bankroll wise) before we go searching for another site to play micro stakes on (and are there other sites that have a decent number of $2 NL, $5 NL, $10 NL?)

I'm from Aus, so could prob also buy into sites that US ppl can't..

I'd been thinking of working up to about 500 or so and maybe switching to Full Tilt or something where I can take advantage a new deposit bonus.. or are there sites where you can get some rakeback or something that would actually be worthwhile even at these stakes?

(PS - how does Full Tilt feel @ micro stakes compared to PokerStars? Tighter/looser? More or less variety of games? I noticed they don't have $2NL/$5NL - so does that mean their $10NL is super loose like Star's $2?)

RAKE on stars at lower stakes is 5% (max $3) and Full Tilt is 10% (max $2) which makes a huge difference imo. I would wait until you are rolled for 10/25c before moving to Full tilt, where RAKE changes to 5%.

Editted to change rake back to rake which is what I meant. woops. Thx Hawkfan79 didnt notice my boob.

I'm been asking myself the same questions as Hal except that I am in the US...and in one of the states not allowed on Prima.

I'm probably going to go w/ FTP next. If Cake allowed Poker Tracker, I probably would have already moved there.

And MuddyWicket, since when does does stars have rakeback? Or are you counting the FPP's as a rakeback and somehow made them into a dollar amount?

fwiw I disagree with buying in max at all times. at 1/2 cent on stars I buyin at $3 which is 150bb (enuff imo) and is more than 90% of everyone else. It may be just something to keep me within a comfort zone (loss limiter within one hand) because I am still comfortable if I get my stack up there.

But I think if I was just starting out again I would suggest $3 is enough to buyin with at that level.

I did the same thing. I bought in for the default $3 at 2nl and $6 at 5nl, only buying in full when there were several other full stacks, especially if they were to my right.

Originally Posted by Hal

bonuses at micro stakes..
I'm from Aus, so could prob also buy into sites that US ppl can't..

My advice, build your roll up on whichever site you deposited on first until you can get the max first deposit bonus at empire, clear that, do the same at party, um, not sure which next, probably pacific and they have good welcome freerolls too, then figure out which next. Empire and party don't have rakeback, so bonus whore then run. Once you reach $600 you should sort out rakeback (talk to people here for a referral, loads of bonuses have opportunity for both the new player and a referrer to get the bonus!) and clear the Full Tilt bonus playing $25nl.

First deposit bonuses are once only, so max them out. It's free money yo. If you don't have the bankroll to get the maximum, wait.

I started a few months ago with not so many dollars, and bonuses have contributed a big chunk to my bankroll. Stars and FullTilt are fairly tight compared to some of the other sites, well that seems to be consensus anyway.
Other advice is to open up a neteller account before you start the bonus chasing process, changing between US$ and NZ$ all the time was a waste of money...
Good luck!

Originally Posted by Hal

Since you brought it up Chopper - I'll ask about bonuses at micro stakes..

When does it become important? Apart from that initial $20-100 deposit most of us make when first getting our feet wet sites like Stars don't seem to offer any reload bonus... How long should we wait (Bankroll wise) before we go searching for another site to play micro stakes on (and are there other sites that have a decent number of $2 NL, $5 NL, $10 NL?)

I'm from Aus, so could prob also buy into sites that US ppl can't..

Hey man, just saw this .

Stars do have reload bonuses, but they can be tough to clear at micro stakes (just like the initial deposit I guess). A few months back they had a 25% reload bonus up to max $500. What I did was deposit $500 (to qualify for $125 bonus) then a few days later withdraw that $500 again, leaving me with my initial roll, but having qualified for the bonus. I think for that $125 I need to clear over 1800 FPPs though (to give you an idea).

Once I've cleared that I plan to investigate other options with rakeback as well as bonuses.

As Daven suggested I openned a netteller account to withdraw to (since they wont pay money into a visa account), but it is a bit of a pain if you want to withdrawer from that. I havnt got around to doing it yet, gotta take digital photos of drivers license and bankstatement from memory.

Originally Posted by Hal

Since you brought it up Chopper - I'll ask about bonuses at micro stakes..

When does it become important? Apart from that initial $20-100 deposit most of us make when first getting our feet wet sites like Stars don't seem to offer any reload bonus... How long should we wait (Bankroll wise) before we go searching for another site to play micro stakes on (and are there other sites that have a decent number of $2 NL, $5 NL, $10 NL?)

I'm from Aus, so could prob also buy into sites that US ppl can't..

I'd been thinking of working up to about 500 or so and maybe switching to Full Tilt or something where I can take advantage a new deposit bonus.. or are there sites where you can get some rakeback or something that would actually be worthwhile even at these stakes?

(PS - how does Full Tilt feel @ micro stakes compared to PokerStars? Tighter/looser? More or less variety of games? I noticed they don't have $2NL/$5NL - so does that mean their $10NL is super loose like Star's $2?)

AWESOME QUESTION, hal.

a LOT of newer players need to hear this...

Bonuses are important AT EVERY LEVEL, imo, and especially important when your bankroll is SMALLER...or in the beginning. i could have never climbed up to respectable levels with out them helping me. (more on my early days another time, but i was playing 100NL in 5-6 months from my virgin hand)

there are plenty of places to start w/o a lot of money. NO DEPOSIT sites are decent places to start. other sites that only offer 100% matches up to $100 dollars are the next places to start. you absolutely MUST WAIT to deposit on the bigger bonus sites until you have the money readily available to "MAX IT OUT." what i mean is: if you have $300, and put it all into FTP's 100% to $600, you just lost half of that bonus' potential. and you only get ONE SHOT at a sign-up bonus....so you have to gameplan wisely.

i will try and get a simple, rough guide out ASAP for players to follow. well, one that is current anyway. i've been waiting for the motivation to do so.

but, really quick, just at looking through here at FTR, i can see there are 5 "no deposit required" bonuses. bear in mind a serious player is going to read the "fine print" or Terms and Conditions on any site they plan to put money into. that will be your responsibility to do, but i can maybe get you started for the time being.

No Deposit Required
- Poker Room School (non-US)...$150 free potential
- Golden Riviera (partial-US)...$10 free, and 100% to $40
- Purple Lounge (non-US)...$3 free
- VC Poker (non-US)...up to $35 free, $10 free immediately
- William Hill (non-US)...$25 free. but $25 free per month if you play 5 hours per month

now, the WillHill bonus sounds great, but i would check the fine print on that one. i remember they used to require you play at $1/2 to earn that one, and a newer player's bankroll cant handle that. just an example of what i mean by "buyer beware."

i know those sound itsy-bitsy, but if you have no money for a bankroll....you try to build one from scratch. many players have done so.

as you grind your bankroll up, you start to shoot for some bigger bonuses. if you are following what i am saying, you dont want to leave any bonus money on the table. dont chase off a bonus until you can deposit the appropriate amount to earn ALL of it.

you also need to check and see if the sites you are looking at offer rakeback. and do they make you choose between rakeback and bonus money? FullTilt does. i cannot personally get rakeback at FTP now because i chased off their bonus before rakeback was offered and never switched over. well, not without jumping through some serious hoops.

i'll add to this in a bit...gotta take the kiddos to school.

hey chopper, will you post a screen shot of your position stats? My pfr % is not where it needs to be and I would like to see where I need to pick up the aggression. I think i need to reraise preflop with position more. Can you give me a couple of examples of when you like to do that? (i.e. reraise range vs. how many callers in front of you)

better yet, heres a link to the "bonus chasing guide" i put up thanks to this question. thank you, Hal.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...26.html#632372

Originally Posted by frosst

hey chopper, will you post a screen shot of your position stats? My pfr % is not where it needs to be and I would like to see where I need to pick up the aggression. I think i need to reraise preflop with position more. Can you give me a couple of examples of when you like to do that? (i.e. reraise range vs. how many callers in front of you)

i'll do my best to advise you, but this is an area i am no expert. i like to run 100%/50% in ratio in full ring. numbers like 20/10, 18/9, etc. therefore, there is a lot of limping behind limpers with a decently wide range, looking for big heroic flops. you get paid down low, and can scoop orphan pots fairly easily on the flop. but, you dont isolate fish much. with all the players calling light, i feel this is better for me, but far from the standard advice you will get from the experts here playing higher levels (those who will forget more about poker than i will know). so, bear that in mind. the discrepancy between UTG and the button wont be as great, if at all.



[img][/img]

again, the top is the first part of last year. no positional awareness whatsoever, and a 5ish/100 between 10 and 25NL. however, the bottom is the last four months, variance/bad play ridden. better positional numbers, but not a lot of winning...at least not like the top.

so, you be the judge of how important "positional statistics" are. POSITION is important. but, i dont know that those numbers in PT are AS important as everyone wants you to believe (please understand what i am saying here). this year, i am running more like the top half again, and am coincidentally on a heater. hmmm.

if you still want "tips" on where to open up, i can tell you what i like to do, but i think most people are better off reading Sauce123's 6max philosophy to 3betting and isolating. that transfers EXTREMELY well into full ring because of all the nits. and, i AM wider from late position, believe it or not, but dont do it all the time.

hope that helps a little.

Chopper,

I'm currently trying to grind it out on UB at 2NL and am finding it frustrating when I buyin for the full amount and most of the players at that level come in with $0.10-$.50 and are looking for any pretty cards to double-up with. What's the solid way of getting my head in gear and my bankroll up at such low levels?

At lower limits players make so many mistakes post flop that you don't have to be as aggressive preflop. I am around 20/10 and find so many people spew post flop, with almost any part of it. I like the term 'mistake equity' someone used because some of the players just will not fold anything regardless of pot odds, etc. The suicidal flush chaser is a typical example. The road to allin does not have to start preflop.

Some tables its almost impossible to isolate without a lunatic preflop raise so why even bother trying? I think sometimes it can be a mistake to inflate pots preflop with medium hands knowing you don't have any fold equity. Also its hard to keep raising in late position behind 3+ limpers and when you are getting 7:1 + in the button or sb I find it hard to justify folding anything but trash.

I think as the standard of players get better the mistake equity reduces along with opportunities to join the limpers, and if you do limp, the chance of being raised increases. You still have to raise quality hands but the opportunities for raising in late position with a wider range is reduced due to the frequency and numbers of limpers, so instead of raising your JTo it can be easier to call along with the rest.

muddy, you will get a good bit of dissenting opinion, but i agree 100% with 95% of what you said. as you can see, andrew, i run about 18/9...give or take.

andrew, to add...play for his stack when you have the goods. bet about half of his measly $.35, or all of it depending on how short he is. but, respect their bets, raises, and such. they dont have a lot on the table, they know that, and they arent always bluffing. in fact, they arent always laying good odds to draw against.

another thing to add to your question would be to read Fnord's "half stacking approach." i'll link it at the bottom. read it to get "inside the head" of a short stacker, and play against that logic. but, bear in mind, that a lot of them havent got a clue about short stacking, buying in full, or poker for that matter. its just good fuel for you.

keep playing tightish. when i am up against a shorter stacked opponent, i will look at his bet size in relation to his stack size. sometimes its an indication of whether or not they are willing to go all the way with this hand.

if they lead out $.40 and only have $1 in their stack, they arent likely to fold. if you like your hand enough and think you are likely ahead, i like to push over for the extra $.60. its not like he's folding...but he may. and i would rather be the pusher than the pushee, if i am in any doubt.

notes help a ton. use that feature. some of those short stacks like to play draws...note them. some wont...note them, too.

bottom line, though, you are going to see variance at all levels of poker and against all stack sizes. sometimes you will have the best of them, sometimes you wont. sometimes your set will flop against a guy with $5 in his stack, sometimes it will be against that frustrating guy with the $.50. but, sometimes you will get your AA cracked by the shorty, too, and be glad for variance when that is the case.

Fnord's thread...

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...he-t62479.html

and another site out there that i found insightful to get into these guys heads...

http://www.donkeydevastation.com/sho...oker-strategy/

those will get you started. but, honestly, straight tight aggressive poker will take these guys down before long.

Thanks, Chopper. Those links definitely make me see exactly what the players are trying to do. I think I kept trying to play at them as if they had a normal stack/skill level and knew when to fold rather than understand what they are looking to do with their money.

The notes will help, I used to do this when I played about a year back but completely got off the habit. I didn't even think about how effective it would be at this level with my opponants' stack size. One last point, I've noticed that besides a "giant" hand vs "good" hand moment my chip stack seems to grow and a smallish pace but the pots I lose are far more than the average pot I win. Would this be me trying to overplay my hands/raising too much in marginal situations or pushing too hard in good situations? I:

*PF raises is 4xbig blind.
*Tend to C/Bet about 90% of the time.
*Most of my bets are between 1/3 and 2/3 pot size, usually hovering around the 1/2 pot size whether I hit or not.

Is this too aggressive a play at the level I'm at?

sorry, vague answer coming.......it could be.

honestly, there isnt enough info there to be sure one way or the other. not that you didnt give some good info there...it just isnt detailed enough because you cant cover every scenario with generalities, and i finally see what the "old dogs" here talk about when they say....it REALLY depends.

one thing i do see, though. i wouldnt bet less than half the pot on any flop. i would keep it to more like 2/3 to 3/4. less than half just encourages air to minraise you, imo.

you are having a lot of the same problems i have from time to time.

- you sound like you are getting a bit "stack happy." where you want all of your opponent's chips everytime you hit a flop. that just cant be done. its one of the main reasons i went on the previously mentioned 12 BI in 10 day downswing. i was pushing everything too hard.

- sounds like you are "peppering" pots so frequently that you are only getting played back at with the goods. and, that only spurs you on because you are sick and tired ot only grabbing the small pots with flop bets.

if so, scale back on your cbet frequencies. not forever, for awhile. start calling a bit, or God forbid, fold a flop when you whiff. experiment with "floating," meaning wait for the turn to bet/raise. see if villains start to give up. stop double barreling so much if you are doing that frequently. maybe a check/raise when you hit a flop and are sure your villains are sensing weakness from you because you bet so often. throw 'em off by mixing up your play a bit. dont take it too far, though. when you bet EVERY flop you raised pf, you get very exploitable by anyone with a brain cell left. and, it can feel like the world is just picking on you.

it could be that your stars are no longer "lining up" and villains HAVE the cards they are advertising...again, variance. but, it could also be over aggression. hard to tell.

and, yes, dont EVER underestimate the value of note taking...at any level.

Originally Posted by Chopper

one thing i do see, though. i wouldnt bet less than half the pot on any flop. i would keep it to more like 2/3 to 3/4. less than half just encourages air to minraise you, imo.

I remember reading an article (I think Howard Lederer) who said about his bets are generally inversely proportional to his hand so that he knows where he stands against people which definitely goes hand-in-hand with what you've told me here. Thanks.

-you sound like you are getting a bit "stack happy." where you want all of your opponent's chips everytime you hit a flop. that just cant be done. its one of the main reasons i went on the previously mentioned 12 BI in 10 day downswing. i was pushing everything too hard.

Exactly this happened to me this week. I got myself caught on a table with two decent players (one said he was slumming from the 5NL/10NL game) and I ended up blowing 10BI in two days, my entire 1st week's profits and then some. I catch myself pushing hard and always end up "justifying" it to myself.

- sounds like you are "peppering" pots so frequently that you are only getting played back at with the goods. and, that only spurs you on because you are sick and tired ot only grabbing the small pots with flop bets.

if so, scale back on your cbet frequencies. not forever, for awhile. start calling a bit, or God forbid, fold a flop when you whiff. experiment with "floating," meaning wait for the turn to bet/raise. see if villains start to give up. stop double barreling so much if you are doing that frequently. maybe a check/raise when you hit a flop and are sure your villains are sensing weakness from you because you bet so often. throw 'em off by mixing up your play a bit. dont take it too far, though. when you bet EVERY flop you raised pf, you get very exploitable by anyone with a brain cell left. and, it can feel like the world is just picking on you.

I'm going to have to read this point almost everyday. This is exactly what happens to me on a really bad day at cash or when I hit a wall in a MTT. There'll be some people who seem to have my number completely and no matter what I feel like I'm doing they always play back in a way that means I fold or loose a bundle.

What's the best way of countering this? I guess I'm asking how often do I change gears when I'm sitting at the same table/seeing the same guys all the time? I'd like to get to the point where my style borders between TA and LA so it's more difficult for my opponents to know if I'm making a play with junk or the nuts. Is it best to aim for just straight ABC poker with changing of the gears until I get higher up the stakes table?

it could be that your stars are no longer "lining up" and villains HAVE the cards they are advertising...again, variance. but, it could also be over aggression. hard to tell.

This is happening too. I've had a lot of the "AH, how could they get cracked/how could I be rivered AGAIN!" rants but I don't want to just blame it on the cards since I'm pretty sure that'll make my bad habits harder to break later on down the road.

and, yes, dont EVER underestimate the value of note taking...at any level.

What type of notes? I'm noting down what hands are raised/limped/AI'd PF to help me learn how to put people on ranges but is there anything else I should look out for?

Chopper, thanks for this thread man. It's great to actually bounce stuff off people rather than doing the newbie-circle-of-death of just reading the articles.

this is going to turn into more of a chat session, i feel, now. lol.

- you say that Lederer says sort of the same thing. Thank You, that is certainly high praise. i appreciate the validation.

- the guy "slumming" from the 5/10 NL games is a friggin liar. sorry. nobody drops from 1000NL to 2NL, just for fun. he is either a total degen (arent we all really? lol), or someone about to go busto because he SUCKS at bankroll management. besides, if he really was a 5/10 player, he would never admit it at a 2NL table...he would be much too smart for that, imo.

- good news. it sort of sounds like you stopped that 10 BI swing before you went completely busto and "railed" yourself for good. bion (believe it or not), there is a positive there.

- hitting the wall in a MTT? you mean getting bored out of your skull watching the players all push chips with crap when you cant catch anything to stand your ground? that impatience has busted me out of soooo many tourneys, its not funny to even talk about. but, now that you know that, you can stress patience to yourself, and get even closer to cash time, any time you enter....almost.

- changing gears? i would tell you to AVOID those regs. but, at a 2NL table, no offense, i dont think they are "playing YOU." they are only playing their cards. but, its always good advice to avoid the more solid players you notice without something good, and to wait for your opportunities against the idiots. go back and look over the section about lowering your cbet frequency...where i mentioned the different things to do on flops instead of just leading out all the time. that is an example of "changing gears." do it pre flop. do it on flops, turns, and rivers. but, stick to abc poker 90% of the time, and you will be fine. many will argue that abc 110% of the time at the lower stakes (50NL and down) will be very profitable. i just like to change it up a bit...to stave off boredom.

- stars aligning? yeah, dont blame it on the cards...entirely. downswings are the BEST times for finding leaks. you get so obsessed with the fact you are not winning anymore that you do your best learning, imo. also, rest assured that the stars will realign at some point. you will make some serious "crying calls" and come out the winner. thats when you know things are turning again.

- notes? OH YEAH. there are tons of things to watch. get as detailed as possible. everybody has an opinion here, and they all work. some use shorthand. others type in some great stuff in great detail.

i start with a noted abbreviation of their style. TAG, LAG, ROCK, CALLER, CHASER, LPP (fish), etc. that gives me a general idea of the player from the minute i sit down, and helps to tell me if i am in the right seat before my PT and HUD come up. but, i also start to add details when i see something. mostly, what they are willing to push all in with. "felts TP" is a big one. "calls big river bets with crap" is another. those kinds of things will help me when i want to know the best way to size my bets. but, its really a personal thing. play enough and you will develop your own system. just dont drop the note taking because you think you are playing to low of stakes. note taking is an ongoing process that always is "in development."

andrew, i dont suppose anyone else is reading my responses to you, and thats fine. thats what the thread is for. long responses to fairly specific questions.

thanks for the compliments, so far.

Like I said, I prefer a "chatty" thread to anything else since you are able to look at specifics in what I'm talking about and pick things out that help more than just a blank "how to/why to" article, although I'm reading those like crazy too.

I wish I could remember where I read the article but it was very close to what you was saying. Lederer said that the more he bet into a pot 2/3, 3/4, pot-sized, generally meant that he wanted the guy out of the pot and was looking to find out where he stood. So a call/raise would make him slow down and really think on things. Yet if he seriously hit he would end up betting 1/4,1/3, 1/2 (depending on the other guy of course) to maximize profits.

- the guy "slumming" from the 5/10 NL games is a friggin liar. sorry. nobody drops from 1000NL to 2NL, just for fun. he is either a total degen (arent we all really? lol), or someone about to go busto because he SUCKS at bankroll management. besides, if he really was a 5/10 player, he would never admit it at a 2NL table...he would be much too smart for that, imo.

I figured as much with that player, besides the fact that dropping down to that level just doesn't bring in the money longterm from the way people play, he was spewing a lot of lingo in the chat too, talking about what people do with what hands and in what positions. I'm pretty sure that doing that is -EV. This last week has been riddled with internet issues and it was another outage which killed that swing, I was just about to log back into UB and try to regain some of my losses when it crashed. It takes me a while to recover from a swing+tilt, I pretty much blew a BR on Party by doing a "Mouth".

As for the MTTs, yeah that's one of the issues. I try not to take too many risks, another Lederer (him or Daniel Negraneu I think) point was that the biggest jump in money besides FT was going from the bubble to ITM. But it's tough when I see a lot of people opening up and throwing their chips around and I'm not catching anything. When I DO make moves, I find myself against players who seem to have seen my aggressive moves before and side-step me into a corner for most of my stack.

Most of the regs I'm seeing are either SnG/MTT junkies who buyin for $.10 a time to do a few double ups so that they can play another $.50 SnG or they are the only ones to play with a decent stack (and in my mind are where most of my money is going to come from). I'll stick to ABC and keep your points about the c-bet. I tend to do it as a way of finding out where I stand on a dangerous board. Is this the wrong usage of c-betting? What is the actual goal for a proper c-bet?

I see you mention PT. I'm definitely aiming to get it as soon as possible because of the way everyone talks about it's importance. I do have a couple of questions though:

*Would it be best for me to get PT before I move up to the next level or would I be able to get it as I'm moving up to 10NL/25NL?

*How much should I focus on the HUD stats. I don't mind the extra info because I'm aiming to win long-term as much as possible but I don't want to become reliant on PT either since there's no "HUD" in live play.

Chopper, your thoughts and replies are seriously helping out my thinkage and poker is definitely a 6-inch-game (the 6-inches between our ears). I think threads like this should be more common so that others can learn as much as possible. Two other issues I notice I'm having is playing AQ/KQ. These two seem to be my toughest hands to play post flop and I end up getting myself into more trouble than I know they are worth. What would you say is the "best" way of playing them at these stakes? Oh, and what type of winrate should I be aiming for to show I'm winning long-term? Right now I'm looking at the profits after each session but I know that this will eventually drive me batty. If it helps I'm using Siknd's bankroll management spreadsheet to keep track of every session/tournie.

And anything else you think I need to learn/read/focus on I'll be happy to know. Thanks again.

First of all, I don't have anything "new" to contribute but I think this thread is great, Chopper and I really am learning a lot about my play, even if it's by proxy. Your posts are always informative, but this thread is a really good idea. Thanks!

Originally Posted by ApocalypseCow

First of all, I don't have anything "new" to contribute but I think this thread is great, Chopper and I really am learning a lot about my play, even if it's by proxy. Your posts are always informative, but this thread is a really good idea. Thanks!

thanks. i was a bit worried how this may go, but it looks like its filling a hole nicely. no questions to dumb. fire away when you think of one.


andrew,

- a cbet is designed to do that (test the waters), but MORE often it is designed to take the pot when it likely missed your opponent, too. cbet bet sizing is extremely important, imo. you need to know the percentages of profitability. for example, a full pot bet needs to get a fold around 50% of the time to show a profit. but, a smaller bet needs to work less than 50%. you risk less with smaller cbets, but increase your chances of getting them called/raised. there in lies the balance, and why sizing them is so critical.

i may bump a relatively recent thread tomorrow, if i dont forget, about cbet sizing and the math to figure profitability.

- PT purchase. there is another thread running right now about why to buy it. i think its "PT-definitive answer" or something like that. read that, too.

when to buy it is a personal thing. i pulled the trigger as fast as my bankroll allowed without forcing me down a level. that way it was basically free. i think i did that at 25NL, though, because i was rather aggressive early on in moving up. i only used 10 BIs back in the day. kind of stupid today, imo. most use 20+. but, as you saw, i use 30.

that said, i would spring for it sooner, if i were you. i sat on a 5NL table last night and got 3 of the 6 to admit they had it. i made 4 (they didnt know that)...so, i estimate that HALF of lower stakes players, or more, have it now. that CAN be a large disadvantage, imo. others will disagree, and i encourage you to read their comments, too. they are sprinkled all over FTR.

- HUD stats are a different story. i "focus" rather heavily on them, myself, but they are in NO WAY a replacement for an actual read. i just cant see the villains "lick their oreos" like live play...Rounders reference. however, i can get a GENERIC idea of how someone's range compares to mine. and that helps me start making a read. aggression lets me know what to possibly expect as a hand goes on. do i bet the flop? do i cbet? do i steal his blinds? are they doing that to me?

but, thats about it for HUDs, imo. they only get you started, and CANNOT replace a true read that you see and take note of. plenty of players here dont even use one anymore, but most that multi-table are still using it. they just may not use it as much as they did when they first got it.

- AK/AQ. man, thats tough. they give me trouble, too. some will say to 3bet with them. others only call raises. others shove them. i do a little of all three, but at lower stakes...and i make a mistake here...i generally call a raise. i want to see a flop. AK and AQ are pretty much crap, for me, when they miss and i face aggression. i had serious troubles with AK early on in my "career." i really overplayed it post flop. and, since i call and wait to hit, it has come back around. but, i can tell you that is a mistake. i just havent figured out HOW to fix it. its just that its profitable for me, and it didnt used to be. so, i leave well enough alone.

- winrates. anything positive is a good thing. seriously. its better than you think because the rake, at these levels, is tearing you apart already for about 4-6 bbs/100. but, you can beat these stakes rather easily with fundamental pre flop play. play ok post flop and you should be hitting double digits. at least thats my standard through 10NL. but, as i have mentioned, variance is a bitch. and, it can occur for looooong stretches. hence, my graphs above. if you can sustain a 5 bb/100, you can say safely you are beating any microstake game. your measurement needs to be over 15k hands...minimum. but, i like 20-25K there, personally. by then you will see your bankroll telling you its time to move up in most cases.

- i'll tell you anything you want to know. and, i'll tell you if i am not the guy, too. so, keep firing...i only charge $500/hr. just kidding.

I just found this:

https://www.wirecard.com/wirecard/


And more info exclusively on how to deposit from restricted countries

http://double-poker.co.uk/payment.html

ApocalypseCow, if there's anything I'm missing here just jump in. We're all here to help each other.

Jack Sawyer, thanks. I like the look of the Wirecard deal.

Originally Posted by Chopper

- a cbet is designed to do that (test the waters), but MORE often it is designed to take the pot when it likely missed your opponent, too. cbet bet sizing is extremely important, imo. you need to know the percentages of profitability. for example, a full pot bet needs to get a fold around 50% of the time to show a profit. but, a smaller bet needs to work less than 50%. you risk less with smaller cbets, but increase your chances of getting them called/raised. there in lies the balance, and why sizing them is so critical.

So in general I have been using the cbet in the correct way. However is the cbet dependent upon position? Right now my positional play is about 30/70. I'm keeping an eye on my position PF whenever I get marginal cards or get the urge to "get frisky" with the other players but I'm still not taking it beyond that post flop. Is it better to cbet a flop when I'm first to act, for that feeler, or second/last to act when I know what the other person has done?

I didn't expect that high a number using PT at these levels but it does make sense. The more info/tools banded about the 'net the more the lower level players are going to jump on it in a hope that they are now a better player. I'll look for the threads about both cbetting and PT.

In regards to the HUD, it allows us to know what % of their hands are being played and using Pokerstove we then can see roughly the type of cards we're up against each time? (Love the Rounders' references btw.) What do you think might be the downside of PT and the HUD system? Even online there are still sometimes "oreo" moments through betting patterns and similar situations occurring between us and the other guy.

In regards to the AK/AQ dilemma and generally other tight situations would it be better for me if I treated it like a higher stakes game? Reraise or fold, two all-ins preflop using meaning I'm beat (rather than the huge potential of it being my AK vs A4 vs A6)? I've been leaning this way my last few sessions, doing a lot of laydowns which I haven't been too happy about but like you mentioned, I *know* I'm overplaying AK/AQ when I miss and there's the huge potential of even if an A did hit me, my opp made 2P with his weak kicker.

I saw the rake on UB and I had to take a step back. It's $.10 on the $1 at this level. Even now I'm seeing a huge difference between the amount I could be/have been up and the amount I am/was (prior to the swing). How do I know how many hands I've played? Is that only with a program like PT or is there a way of me working it out?

A few more things which I thought of:

*In regards to the winrate and moving up, would you sugguest I multitable? The last few times I've done it I 2-tabled for a couple of hours and ended up having one table being way ahead and another just breaking even. I'm pretty much looking to build up my skills as I go, I want to make this an eventual "career" both live and online so I am willing to take my time learning as I go. I've seen a lot of discussion here about the benefits and downsides to playing more than one table and it seems to always come down to how much a person trusts their automatic game. Would I be in better shape if I looked to increase my tables until I found a balance between that natural knowledge of what to do and my preference of being "involved" with the table whether I'm in a hand or not?

*On a similar note, when is the best time to move tables? Right now I'm still at a stage where I'm not completely comfortable with my play until I have something over my initial buyin - it's not that I'm stressing that I''m losing the money, I'm getting frustrated that I'm not showing a win yet. Because of this I tend to try and stay at the same table as long as possible but often the number of players will drop to 3-4 after a while and my shorthanded play is either full blown table domination or spewing money everywhere. Do I take this opportunity to play a few SH games (imagining it's a final table perhaps?) or do I go on the hunt for full one?

*At these stakes I'm thinking:
-What do I have.
-What do they have.
-If I bet here and call it means they are probably sticking around with a draw/low pair.
-If I'm raised, I need to get out of the hand because only something that beats me raises (or else I have the near nuts and they are overplaying their hand).

Should I be trying to go deeper here or wait until 5NL? I know at some stage I need to think what my actions make my opp think I have but I haven't got to that part yet. Is this the level I should start my thinkage progress?

- cbet dependent on position? no. but, common sense would tell you to use it more when you act last. typically, you will find some spots are better than others. would you cbet in a 5 player pot? would you cbet a flop like 9hThJh? would you cbet into a player that has called all your bets in the past?

- HUD downsides? you think that because the guy runs 80% vpip that he cant possibly have AA when he is sending clear messages to you. you get so set on his PREFLOP RANGE that you fail to adjust post flop with your read. anything that overvalues numbers to actually paying attention to the bets and raises is a downside to HUDs.

- AK/AQ again, i am no expert here. but i dont want to bet so hard pre flop that the only thing i am bringing along is AA....thats really bad, obv. you DO want A4 and AT in the pots with you. thats where you make your money. will they hit two pair on you, sure, but not most times. and you dont want them to fold off too early, but you dont want to offer them outstanding pot odds to keep coming along, either. thats where your reads must take over, and HUDs cant really help you here, imo. you need notes that tell you that you have seen your villain "play any A from any pos" or "push two pair on dry boards" or "keeps coming with bottom pair A kicker." that kind of stuff. imo, AK is one of the easiest hands to win small pots, but lose big pots with. you blow JJ out on an A 5 7 rainbow flop, but stack off to a set. i wouldnt necessarily "make big lay downs" with AK. i would "float" it or "peel" with it a little more often. i wouldnt just bet, bet, bet. start exercising pot control...you do have 6 outs a lot of the time. dont just bet it or fold it....mix it up.

- hands played? you already sound like you are using a spreadsheet to track your bankroll. just look in the "stats" windows that UB gives you, and before you leave a table, sit out, and write those numbers down. start keeping a running total in your spreadsheet. if you are really good with the spreadsheet, you can convert your winnings into BBs and track a win rate just like PT (remember that NL bb's are double the big blind in PT). but, yes, PT is way easier.

- multi-tabling? yeah, thats more of a personal thing. upside is you really leverage your winrate, so long as it stays positive. (spoonitnow is probably the guy to ask about multi-tabling) i run 4-6, but usually 4. i dont like to run more because i feel i lose myself in the hands. i cant do just one, though, i get bored and impatient. as for one table being up and the other running even...thats going to happen. you cant be up on every table every time...its just not possible. you will have to work the multi-tabling thing out for yourself, but if you are going to give it a shot, its probably best to start now...at the lower levels where the practice is cheap and the competition is theoretically easiest.

- moving tables is another personal preference thing that comes with experience. i dont like playing less than 4-handed...period. when a 6max table falls apart, if someone doesnt sit in by about 2 orbits (not long), i bail...unless, there is a mega fish at the table, and sometimes even then. i dont open up like i should and the blinds start putting heat on me...so, its easier for me to find another table.

i will also move if i find that i dont like my seat. thats a MAJOR advantage to a HUD, imo. you can use the "table %'s" to get a read on the table as a whole. is it loose? is it tight? if so, WHERE are those players? on my right? left? is it aggrressive preflop? are there a lot of players going to showdowns? the HUD tells me that stuff starting in about 25 hands. and, if i dont like the table conditions, i leave when the blinds roll around. i also dont like to sit for much longer than 100 hands at any given table, unless i feel i'm in the "lucky seat" (yes, i can be supersticious and stupid that way) or there are some serious fish, or somebody i feel i can continue to exploit. i dont want to sit too long, though w/o a reason, as i feel that i am reading you, and you are starting to read me. of course, you could just change gears....something i am also working on.

a way to practice short-handed came up awhile back here at FTR, and the best thing i saw was...to practice short-handed, sit at a full ring table with about 5 players on it. as it fills, conditions start shifting towards full ring play, but most TAGs are looking for "mature tables" allowing you to catch any fish before they show up...and work on your 6max type of range.

- dont give too much credit for your villains having much of a brain until at least 25NL. there are some good ones, true, but the majority are still bad ones getting kind of lucky, imo. but, YES, you should be trying to read hands, or better yet, pin them on a RANGE of hands. how does your holding measure up to that? that largely determines what you do down here. its not the easiest thing, imo, because they do some stupid stuff, but you can get an idea most times.

where your thinking sits at the moment is fine. work on getting better there. but, NEVER stop tyring to improve.

Cbetting
Actually the "would you cbet in a 5 player pot" does have a yes answer, which the moment you asked made me realise just how much I have overused the cbet in situations where it wasn't for the best. I generally don't cbet into a dangerous flop unless I'm last to act/second to last and it's been checked to me. With no one behind/only one person behind I've been acting on the idea that, at these limits anyway, someone who is slow playing the nuts/second nuts is going to c/r me more often than just c/c. Is this the wrong attitude to take? Am I losing too much in the long term by trying to steal pots on a scary board? As for someone who calls my bets, I *eventually* wake up and slow down.

HUD
So I guess with HUD it is like watching Negreanu/Williams having pros lay down hands against them. Just because you know that someone plays with less than optimum hands doesn't mean that this time is the time they actually have the nuts - Incidentally I've noticed that in a MTT this indecision on my part comes up a lot. From what you've been talking about in this thread I think that means if I get in that situation I'm playing too many hands against these types of players in the same way/or not listening to their change in play. Is that right?

AK/AQ/Preflop
I generally try to keep my preflop raise the same (on another note do you find it better to have it a set amount or include an extra bet for each limper?). With the Ax vs AK type situation, is it just by "feel" that you can tell they are pushing too hard and to call their raises? I'm good on implied odds (I think) but it's when I'm being bet into on pot odds looking for my higher kicker to draw that I'm shaky on.

If I have 6 outs, that means (for sake of easy math) I have a 6*4 - 24% chance of getting my card on the turn or river. So does this mean my call must be more than 24% of the pot in order for me to justify calling if I know I need that card? - I used to be really good at maths but over the years it's in-one-ear and out-the-other.

BB
So whenever someone talks about BB in NL, it's double the big blind. Which means if I'm raising 3xbig blind I write it as 3bb but if my winrate is 3BB/hr I'm winning 6 big blinds every hour?

Tabling
I remember reading Spoonitnow's thoughts on how to increase tables so I'll definitely take your advice and start now. I'll need to take it slow as I've already caught myself getting flustered if having to make more than one decision at the same time. Is this where the HUD makes up for lack of 100% focus?

So you change tables often? If so, would you say this helps keep you fresh and/or is keeping your winrate higher than it would be if you stayed at the same table for 3hours+?

Short-handed/6-max.
I know there has probably been huge discussions on this but what are your thoughts with the pros and cons of playing full-ring and/or 6-max? Is it possible to be great at both or would it be better to just focus on one first? I've never really tried 6-max but I like the idea of being involved in hands more yet I also like the full-ring more stacks, more time to pick my spots.

Villians range
With my range I think I know where I stand on most parts. There are a lot of people at this level who bet heavy with bottom/mid pair on the flop (thinking back, it's most likely the texture because of the draws there too) and unless I've caught something I usually back away. But I am worried I'm not maximizing my potential winnings here by being slightly too cautious.

I guess right now my biggest deal following that thought is that I feel comfortable when I'm taking the lead in a hand. But if someone is bringing me the action (unless I've got nuts/near nuts) I'm usually unsure of where I stand even with knowing their range. Should I become a calling station and "suckout" because they've allowed me to get in for cheap. I'm pretty sure this is something I have to work on working out.

wow, andrew, these are getting long. lol. dont get me wrong, i like this, but maybe we should start asking/answering one at a time to keep these posts a length that more people will read? we are really expanding now.

- cbetting? no, and no. you arent wrong in thinking that someone would rather c/r than lead out. but, they dont ALL do that. thats one for your notes to tell you. and, i dont think you are losing by trying to steal pots that villains are letting you take. you just have to know when to apply pressure and when to "let one go." its really about WHO is likely to fold, and WHO is likely to call. steal from the folders, and dont against the callers.

- HUD? sort of right. your job is to stay one step ahead of the competition. keep THEM guessing. not reacting to when they change. by then, you should be planning to change again...ideally.

- AK/AQ? i include +1 for limpers, but only to the point i feel the table will fold off. generally, i cap myself at 6X, but on some tables you should be starting at 6X. thats another experience and table texture thing. at a 2NL where you have had a lot of shorter stacks, i may bust them up much larger than usual, and force them to play committed to isolate. lots of others will not respect their bets anyway, and you start trapping some dead money in the pots when you likely have the advantage.

i dont calculate pot odds for two streets when there is likely to be betting on the turn. if i am all-in, that is when i use the X4 calcs. otherwise i am roughly X2. 6 outs = 12% = 8:1 to call profitably. but, often on a J high flop, your A and K may be good. therefore, implied odds come into play. if you hit your A, will he continue to pay? if so, you may pay almost any sized bet on flop to "peel" off a card. if you were playing NL "by the book" at all times, you would rarely have the odds to call with only 6 outs on a flop. besides, your opponent MAY shut down and check the turn, too, giving you another shot at taking the pot with the A or a river bluff...it all changes on every street making poker such a great game of information and misinformation.

- BB? exactly. they call them "pokertracker big bets" or PTBB. the caps arent necessary, but your terminology is correct.

- tabling? yes, this is where HUDs make it much easier. yes, i change quite a bit. its not for "freshness," but almost entirely for winrate. i am looking for the loose passive tables. i know they exist and when i notice i am not on one, i get up and leave. but, after 100 plus hands, i have usually had a heater and a run of cold cards, too. i start to settle into my normal "image" and it gets harder for me to keep the others on their heels. i dont know how to explain it very well. i just feel the table getting stagnant, and notice people starting to play back at me on the flop, or whatever. i dont like that, so i move on.

- SOOOOOO many threads and articles here and elsewhere on the debate. personally, i am back to full ring, for now. i bounce back and forth between fr and 6max, limit and NL, stud, etc. i think they all help me keep the monotony away of always playing the same way. its possible to be great at ALL of them. just ask some of the HORSE players. but, you will always have your specialty...mine feels like frNL.

6max-- 1)more hands to maximize your advantage 2)more aggression, typically 3)more of a post flop game 4)higher winrates for the better players, supposedly (search Renton's articles for this one)

FR-- 1)less blinds to pay 2)i think you can run more tables at once 3)if you can exploit the tighter players, this can be a gold mine. 4)i just seem better here, personally. i seem too passive for 6max, and just a tick more aggressive than the typical fr TAG. prolly not true at all, but its how i feel i play.

- villains range? it is definitely something for YOU to work out. you will find your niche. i know players like bankitdrew and cocco_bill that play rather passive and make a KILLING. or players like sauce, gabe, lukie that would rather shove than fold a hand, it seems...lol. its all what you know about "theory" and how you choose to play it within the confines of note-taking, hand-reading, hand selection, positional awareness, and many other factors.

but, this is a game of mistake-making. you will make a lot of them, we all do. but, you will also induce your opponents to make a lot of mistakes, too. we all do. if you can keep your mistakes fewer, and cheaper, than your opponents, it doesnt matter your "style." you will come out on top.

find your niche, and keep them guessing.

I hope people take the time to read this thread, it's an amazing experience to be in. I'll try to keep each post on a general theme but my thoughts usually scatter and I end up thinking on a few different angles at once.

From what you've been saying it seems pretty much that once I get my proper foundation in place, everything else is the "it depends" situation. Reads, opponents, previous plays (both mine and theirs), and texture of the board. I think that's really one of the reasons why I do love poker so much, the chance to do things in our own personal styles once we know how to win.

Which will bring me onto a pretty general question/area. What IS a good foundation pokerwise? From what I've seen/read it seems to be:

*Starting hands.
*Note taking - mentally or electronically.
*Bankroll Management.
*Positional awareness.
*Reading the "conversation" of the hand.
*Bet sizing.
*Odds.
*Experience.

With the additional help of PT and expanding the types of poker to play.

Have I missed anything or over simplified things? - This is also a way for me to try and summerize everything we've gone over so far for those lazy readers.

boy, i cant add much to that list. and, yes, everything does become a "it depends" answer when talking about generalities.

i would only add detail to your list.

*Pre flop play
- starting hands
- calling raises
- 3betting
* Note-taking
* Bankroll Management
- money management
- bonus chasing
- rakeback programs
* Position play
- pre flop
- post flop
- ep, mp, lp, blinds
* Hand-reading and tells
- opponent ranges and bets
- assessing the community cards
* Bet sizing
- cbetting
- value betting
- protecting your hand
- bluffing
* Odds
- pot odds
- implied odds
- reverse implied odds
- equity
* Multi-talbling
* Short-handed vs Full ring
*Software and other tools
- Pokertracker/PokerOffice
-HUDs

this can be a great exercise for others to jump in and "edit."

missed the simplest thing of all :P

Reading the board



You wouldnt believe how many times my less poker-smart friends whine about a "bad beat" when they lost with top two pair, only for me to find out they held A2 on an AKK board etc etc.

Alot of beginners seem to just evaluate the strength of their made hand completely independantly of the board.

A classic example is holding AA on a heavily coordinated board. They will happily stack off on any street because they know aces is a damn good hand but don't look at its relative strenght once the community cards are out.

Jibalob,

Texture is extreme important and I know I still get caught out with not seeing what someone else may have. I love it when I'm getting the money from those less boardvisual but I hate doing it myself.

Chopper,

I think the Pre flop play is hugely spoken about on here. My only grey area may be when to 3-bet and when not outside of the usual AA/KK situation.

*I also notice that you've put down bankroll management and money management as two separate topics, what would be the difference in your eyes with them?

*Value betting and protecting my hand. Do they go together or are they also two different entities for you?

One point on betting. Is there a general rule-of-thumb for inducing a reraise from someone who has been extremely aggressive through the hand (with us holding the nuts) or does it again come down to "it depends"?

Andrew,
For some reason I feel compelled to answer your question about re-raising myself, perhaps to get critiqued. I believe whether you get re-raised depends primarily on your image at the table, and also on the opposing player's level of aggression. If you have an image as a very loose player he may re-raise you to get more chips out of you, or to slow you down. Similarly if you've been playing tight, he may want to make you think about folding. I know sometimes I get bored playing just one table so I started playing around with "table image." Every time I made the nuts or a solid hand I would minbet and re-raise my raiser on every street. Before long, I was actually buying the occasional pot with just a minbet. No one would raise me for fear I had it because I was always showing up monsters.

ApocalypseCow,

I've noticed that I have been reraised a few times to slow me down, especially when my opponent has seen me fold/slow down to other reraises. I play on average around 90minutes per table and I'm noticing that even if I have a run of cards where (by my choice) I'm raising preflop and firing on flops/turns/rivers then even if I completely slow down and not play a single hand for the next 30 minutes I'm still getting pushed back against. It seems at these low levels people are only remembering you betting+folding to a raise instead of how long you've been without playing a pot and that is something which I have yet to get used to.

If your aggression makes the table looser, that can work to your advantage. Just tighten up and when you catch a nice hand, hopefully one of them will remember your previous aggression and be more than willing to give you some of their money. If they aren't getting any play, they may eventually back off and then you can push them around again. It never hurts to change gears to suit the situation.

At least, that's my amateur opinion.

- 3betting? there are lots of times to do it, and lots of reasons. read "sauce's guide to 3betting." its in the short-handed forum or "NL Strategies."

but, basically, you are taking initiative for the flop or betting for "value." sure, you want him to fold, but also want him to pay a steeper price to call. when you see villain is raising everything, and you see he is raising less than stellar cards, you "pop" him when you have something that beats his likely range. say you see he has raised AXs. you may 3bet him with AJs or a pp. if you see him raising in the later positions, likely stealing blinds, you may 3bet him from a blind. kind of defending your blind, but really because you know you have his "raising range" beat.

if i villain is raising 20% of his hands, another bonus for the HUD, you can 3bet him with the top 10% of your hands, theoretically. you should feel safe that you are above over half of what he raises with.

there are many more intracicies to 3betting which is why i will defer to the powers that be on this one.

however, remember, doing so at the 2NL, or 25NL level for that matter, may be a rather moot point....and -EV to say the least. you are playing against players that mostly dont know what the hell they are doing, and unless you see them showing down weak cards, i would just go on respecting their raises before i open up my own 3betting range. but, the minute i see it in someone am watching, i start looking for hands and positions to punish them for raising so aggressively.

- bankroll and money management were, for me, under the same heading. money management was a sub-topic of bankroll management, as denoted by the dash instead of the asterisk.

- they are different to me, but fall under the category of bet sizing because i would talk about them there. they are different concepts. value betting is when you know you are likely ahead. protection/block betting is when you may think you are best, it looks like someone may or may not do something, and you do NOT expect to be best by showdown. so, you want to end the hand immediately if possible.

as far as "inducing a RR." i dont know how, but i can sometimes sense when they might. yes, its usually an aggressive player, but sometimes its the appearance of a scare card...like a flush completing. you can all of a sudden check to them. or sometimes you bet really small, or sometimes you want to induce a "hero call" and overbet or shove the pot.

it all comes down to "feel" and your understading of the player and situation. again, i guess it depends.

not the best answer to 3betting, i just banged this one out of the top of my head.

again, though, dont take 3betting too seriously at the micro levels. you can play with it. maybe you figure something out. but, generally, your opponents are playing their cards...even when it looks obvious they are playing you.

What about table selection?
What do you guys look for when picking a table to sit down at?

This is something I haven't really read much on, and I've never put much thought into, but I want to start taking it into consideration.

For me, at least right now, mostly I'm looking for three things:

*Number of players. I prefer Full ring and rarely come into a table with less than 6/7 people. Preferably I'll look for a table with only 1 or 2 seats open.

*Average pot size. Being at 2NL I need to make sure the table I'm going to isn't going to have 10 people with $0.10 at the table waiting for a hand before going all-in. The bigger the a.pot size for this level the more likely I'm going to have a few $1 stacks to play with.

*Flop percentage. Again, at this level at least, the lower the "seen flop" % is the more likely I'm going to find a bunch of tiny-stacks waiting for that AI moment.

I don't know about higher up the levels because I know feel and stack sizes/style of players can come into play when choosing a table but I don't have that worry yet. I don't think.

Originally Posted by mrickett

What about table selection?
What do you guys look for when picking a table to sit down at?

This is something I haven't really read much on, and I've never put much thought into, but I want to start taking it into consideration.

TrainerJyms has an incredible video here at FTR on just that. i would take the 45 minutes, if i were you, to watch it ASAP. i know it helped me get back to basics after i had started to ignore table and seat selection.

also, check his site (in his avatar) for more videos regarding the subject.

i like to keep the deeper stacks on my right, and tighter players on my left. i can steal more blinds and respond more appropriately to what the big money at a table does.

i watch average pot size, too. and, i dont sit with more than 3 people buying in short, if possible.

Originally Posted by mrickett

What about table selection?
What do you guys look for when picking a table to sit down at?

This is something I haven't really read much on, and I've never put much thought into, but I want to start taking it into consideration.

TrainerJyms has an incredible video here at FTR on just that. i would take the 45 minutes, if i were you, to watch it ASAP. i know it helped me get back to basics after i had started to ignore table and seat selection.

also, check his site (in his avatar) for more videos regarding the subject. most of their vids are great learning for the price involved.

i like to keep the deeper stacks on my right, and tighter players on my left. i can steal more blinds and respond more appropriately to what the big money at a table does.

i watch average pot size, too. and, i dont sit with more than 3 people buying in short, if possible.

Okay... I guess without even realizing it I was paying attention to a lot of that stuff. Thanks for your input, and I'll be definitely watching the video.

Originally Posted by Chopper

- hands played? you already sound like you are using a spreadsheet to track your bankroll. just look in the "stats" windows that UB gives you, and before you leave a table, sit out, and write those numbers down. start keeping a running total in your spreadsheet. if you are really good with the spreadsheet, you can convert your winnings into BBs and track a win rate just like PT (remember that NL bb's are double the big blind in PT). but, yes, PT is way easier.

I've finished a prototype of such a spreadsheet and was wondering at how many hands will my numbers actually mean something? Once I get to the said amount, would you mind taking a look at them to see how I'm doing/what I need to work on?

andrew, i first want to say that so far, in the last week, you have really impressed me here at FTR with your excitement and questions. the early fire you are showing is indicative of somebody that will be playing many levels higher in a relatively short period of time...so long as you are backing it with study and work ethic to improve your game.

one of our most respected posters here, ISF, started playing about the same time as i did...i think...and in the beginning asked tons of questions...TONS. always posting hand histories for review (prolly the next step you want to take), and then posting more difficult ones to test the minds of the regular posters here.

in a RAPID period of time, ISF grew to a very respected player and theorist, imo, and plays at higher stakes rather well.

keep it up, and you may be on a track like that. i dont want to speak too soon, you have a lot of work in front of you and a lot of time to prove yourself. i just want to throw out the encouragement because you may have some solid potential here. thanks for all your questions so far. keep posting and learning.


sample size? we used to say 10k. now, we say more like 20k. i like 25k, but still believe you can get a good idea of beating the lower stakes at 10k most times.

i would start posting numbers/stats for others here at FTR at about 10k hands. any before that and you will hear a lot of "small sample size" comments.

of course, i will look at them. as will many others here. when you want to, shoot me a pm, start your own thread, or post them in this one. it makes no difference to me.

if you want, when your template is functional, shoot a message to me just so i can see what it looks like. but, w/o pokertracker, my concern is that you wont be able to tell much about HOW you play...only the results you are achieving by playing that way.

Thanks for the compliment, Chopper. Usually I'm not as vocal on forums but I'm completely focused on my game and trying to improve as much as possible. I am looking to start putting up some hands, prob within a few days/week once I shift through and find some spots.

As for the database, I know it's going to be pretty weak in helping me grow. That's why I'm looking to get Poker Tracker ASAP (within 2 weeks). Until then I'll keep grinding away (doing about 4-8 hours a day, between 1-3 tables at a time depending on outside events and how I'm feeling) and keep asking anything which comes to mind.