Betting flush draws

Do you bet when you have a good flush draw and are first to act? If so how much?

I bet draws frequently, and I usually bet just under what I could justify calling if I was bet into with a second caller (three total in the pot). For example, flush draw with $20 in the pot. I'm a little worse than 4:1 to make the hand, so I'm willing to bet out for $8. If I get two callers, that adds up to 36:8, and I get my odds.

I think the advantages to betting it are that:

1) Often everyone missed and you can pick up the pot (obvious)
2) You show strength and keep the button from a big buy attempt if it checks around (pretty obvious)
3) You put more money in the pot so you get odds to see the next card, and to add value if you hit (obvious, but the first part is debatable).
4) You set up for a play later when you have a very strong hand and want an all-in from the oamf across the table.(new to me)

The only solid disadvantages I considered before is that you are putting money in a pot when you don't have the best hand, when you MIGHT have gotten to see a card for free. Plus, someone with a very strong hand can re-raise, and all of a sudden things get serious.

I'm now seeing that there is another big disadvantage. It is so obvious that you are betting a draw when you don't bet to take away the draw odds. I've noticed that a lot of players are reading this and I'm automatically into the re-raise scenario. I've also started picking up on this, and going over the top to take away the odds for their draw.

Of course this doesn't work on the brainless. You gotta know who you're playing for this to work.

Thoughts?

What do you do on the turn if you don't catch your flush card? Bet again? Or just check?

I only like betting a draw if I have position. If it doesn't work, I often get it checked to me on the turn, and I just check again to see the river card for free.

HOWEVER, If I have a flush draw + 1-2 overcards I might check from the front, and if somebody bets I may push all-in on a semi-bluff. Timing is everything with that play though (with 2 overcards you might actually be the favorite even if called).

I'm not saying I never bet a draw from the front, but almost never in a multiway pot.

Originally Posted by heatman

\1) Often everyone missed and you can pick up the pot (obvious)
2) You show strength and keep the button from a big buy attempt if it checks around (pretty obvious)

these are the two biggies for me. if i raised preflop (with something like AQ suited) and i'm first in, i'm really inclined to bet it.

frequently, that 2nd show of strength will be enough to win it right there. if not, unless someone has a monster, they're usually a little more tentative.

if i limped in, i'm more inclined to check it.

In a raised pot (which you raised), a semi-bluff from the front is a lot more viable than in an unraised one. Good point.

I never bet my draw, i have to be holding something equal or better than A9s to actually bet my draw, and that's only if i'm in late position. But i can't disagree with heatman's opinions either.

1) Often everyone missed and you can pick up the pot (obvious)
2) You show strength and keep the button from a big buy attempt if it checks around (pretty obvious)
3) You put more money in the pot so you get odds to see the next card, and to add value if you hit (obvious, but the first part is debatable).
4) You set up for a play later when you have a very strong hand and want an all-in from the oamf across the table.(new to me)

I thinks heatman has some good point, i just don't play that way though. I don't think flush draws are profitable, tough to win big pots with them and you often lose big bets to those that don't turn flush. At PP you got people playing T7o for $3 preflop raises, it's not hard to imagine them chasing you all the way if they flop top pair. So again, heatman's got a point, but then... is it profitable in the long run? What do you think guys?

Originally Posted by JJgoneMAD

I thinks heatman has some good point, i just don't play that way though. I don't think flush draws are profitable, tough to win big pots with them and you often lose big bets to those that don't turn flush. At PP you got people playing T7o for $3 preflop raises, it's not hard to imagine them chasing you all the way if they flop top pair. So again, heatman's got a point, but then... is it profitable in the long run? What do you think guys?

jj, i would say it is "profitable" (or at least break even) to bet a flush draw, especially from good position.

between, the pots you take on the flop after it's folded to you, and the free card you often get on the turn - i think if you play it from good position, don't get too attached if someone starts betting hard into you, and make sure you'll end up with at least a king high flush, it all works out.

Depends. Ifit's a marginal flush draw, like Q high, I might bet out and try to take it down, but if it's a Nut, I'm probably going to check and call. I hate to fold people I can make more money from if I hit my flush. That's sort of wrecking my pot odds in the long run, and pot odds are exactly what I want on strong fluch draws.

I agree w/ fishstick. The pots that you "steal by betting on the flop will probably pay off the pots where you don't hit the flush. Sometimes if I hit my nut flush on the turn, I'll check to divert attention away from the flush too.

Originally Posted by heatman

Do you bet when you have a good flush draw and are first to act? If so how much?

(1) Depending if the table is aggressive/loose, I will bet 2x-3xBB to try and keep me in the turn and river with good pot/implied odds. by not betting in these situations the aggressive opps might bet you out of the pot odds. (opp bets 5xBB and scares everyone out, giving you a bad HtoH sitiation). If you hit your flush on the turn, you can make lots of great plays and maybe break a few people
(2) If the table is passive, you can consider playing the same bets, hoping all the oops will drop-out (which will happen). Checking should also be ok since it probably means a free card.

Originally Posted by heatman

I bet draws frequently, and I usually bet just under what I could justify calling if I was bet into with a second caller (three total in the pot). For example, flush draw with $20 in the pot. I'm a little worse than 4:1 to make the hand, so I'm willing to bet out for $8. If I get two callers, that adds up to 36:8, and I get my odds.

I personally wouldnt bet that much (assuming out of position):
(1) Your not sure what your opps have. 1 could drop giving you HtoH against a top-pair opp or worse. If its heads-up play where you are drawing (8 outs) and your opp has top/medium pair on flop, you are not sitting pretty

i usually bet a draw at the pot odds that i am will to call on the lower buy in tables, $5 and $10 single game tournaments. i do not think there are alot of player there that pick up on that i am betting the pot odds.

now on the $30, $50 tables i vary what i do.