Betting on draws, not getting odds

I often visit a NL game where a there are a few players who like to bet post flop on draws, flush draws or open ended. Often these bests are 1/2 pot sized or more. These bets are sometimes re-raises.

I will have two pair or a top pair top kicker post flop with top kicker, bet 1/2 pot or more they will reraise...with 1-4 people in the hand.

I will be on a A or K high flush draw post flop out of position, make a small if there are 5 or so players, or check to see a card if less...then they will make a 1/2, 3/4 pot sized bet and be on a Q high flush draw or on a straight draw.

They do not do this play to mix it up, it is their standard play no matter how many people are in the hand.

What is a counter to this strategy? I can see how you may want the A or K suited cards out for your 10 high but week in week out this seems like a loser. It also hurts when I fold the A.

Thanks

This sounds like a potentially great way to make money. Remember, when you hit your hands, most of your profit comes from people chasing bad odds or over valuing their hands. With your opponnents doing this for you, you have some great chances to take big pots.

I know its hard to tell if theyre on a draw or not, but if youre reasonably sure that your two-pair is good and that your opponent is semi-bluffing, then you have all kinds of great moves to get their money in with the worst of it.

Or say you flop a set in early position and your sure someone will bet, just check, watch the guy after you make a pot sized bet and get a caller or two and then raise the hell out of them. You can take home some huge pots if you show em some well-timed aggressino. Just make sure you're not betting into any made hands, which I know is much easier said than done.

1 pot out of 3 they make the flush and generally win the hand. If they can fold the table out about 1 out of five, this play starts to look profitable, especially if those at the table are unlikely to re raise.

Plus the more bets you make the more likely you are to get monsters paid off.

Bet on flush draw and slow down when you hit. This is a classic example of confusing the fish who jump at the opportunity to represent the flush. You need to mix it up with your disguise because if you play anything over and over the same way it will be picked up.

I don't half bet the pot if I am on the flush draw. Usually bet the pot and see who is still strong. Looking for a reraise but a call is good too because I usually put them on TPTK. If flush hits slow down your bet to about 1/2 of the pot and see how they react if they call you can sense fear of flush and if they raise drop the hammer.

Originally Posted by kf4915

I often visit a NL game where a there are a few players who like to bet post flop on draws, flush draws or open ended. Often these bests are 1/2 pot sized or more. These bets are sometimes re-raises.

What is a counter to this strategy? I can see how you may want the A or K suited cards out for your 10 high but week in week out this seems like a loser. It also hurts when I fold the A.

To me it sounds like they're possibly overbetting through a reraise in hopes of a free card or two? I think they want you to call that reraise, then check on turn. Are they capable of doing this, or do you suspect it's part of their approach? If so, then the counter move would be to, of course, NOT let them have the free cards. If not, and they're tighter (and to me it doesnt sound like you're dealing w/ a rock here) respect that reraise in your own way.

I say get 'er done on the flop w/ a re-reraise and find out what they have sooner than later. If you're getting them to push into you on the flop when you have TPTK/2pair and they have <15 outs, you should do fine over the long haul. I think a crucial piece to this read is knowing how they play their 2 pair flops. If they vary that play from the draw plays you describe, you have to know about it. A lot of players post-flop play for draws and 2 pair can be very, very similar and these are the guys that get the most out of this play.

When a reraise is made it often paralyzes a tight table (unless someone pushes back hard, at least then you know where you're at). Doesn't work so well on the loose ones, because the draw chasing reraiser probably doesn't really want calls, at least if they understand the odds they shouldn't. Or maybe they do want the calls and to be lucky, but that is only going to get short term gain or loss. When you're on a draw, if you think you can get 2 more cards for the price of one, all of a sudden that 1/2 pot bet on the flop turns into 1/4 bet x2, relatively speaking (ie $20 bet into a $40 pot vs. $10 into $40 on the flop and turn).