Betting/3betting the flop.

Please post circumstances where you think it is correct to bet then 3bet the flop in NLHE. Its a play I dont use very much, because it has almost always ended in failure. It seems like everytime I bet/3bet a set or a made str8 or something, they fold. And it seems like everytime I bet/3bet a big draw, they call and I miss.

I could be just running poorly in this dept. I think we could spark up some insightful discussion here.

only when opps on a draw or i flopped a monster on opps flop raise.

Ill try to find obvious examples.

When I'm raised holding a monster and think villain will call the reraise...

Edit: um...actually, this a 4-bet, but the converter gave me so much grief I'll leave it...

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $52.48
Hero: $101.20
UTG+2: $51.15
MP1: $64.88
MP2: $99.70
MP3: $128.95
CO: $187.47
Button: $58.35
SB: $96.95
BB: $115.23

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K K
UTG raises to $2, Hero calls, 4 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 3 7 9 ($8.5, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $3, Hero raises to $9, 2 folds, UTG raises to $15, Hero raises all-in $90.2, UTG calls all-in $35.48.
Uncalled bets: $39.72 returned to Hero.

Turn: 8 ($109.46, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $109.46)


River: 7 ($109.46, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $109.46)


Results:
Final pot: $109.46
UTG shows Jc Jh
Hero shows Kd Kh

I think calling preflop was a bad play in that hand you posted, Warpe.

OESFD is all I've ever used it with.

Originally Posted by Renton

I think calling preflop was a bad play in that hand you posted, Warpe.

I think auto-reraising preflop w/KK everytime tips your hand too often. I think JJ would have found a way to get away from his hand if I'd reraised preflop here. The average Party player interprets a preflop reraise as QQ+, unless you've given them lots of reasons to think otherwise.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

OESFD is all I've ever used it with.

You dont ever do it with anything else to mix it up? You play higher stakes, so isnt that fairly readable?

I sometimes 3bet when I'm the PF raiser OOP with a good hand like TPTK/two pair against a Lagg. This might very well be a leak though...

3bet all in with overs and a flush draw when opp either miniraises or rebets at me when its pretty obiously a c-bet.

3bet all in with a flopped set.
Cant think of any others right now

There are two times when I do this. When I hit a set and the board starts to become coordinated ie: connected cards or two flush cards. Or when I smooth call a PFR with aces or kings.

With my sets I'd rather take that $20 pot then just calling and having that ugly turn show up and be forced to possibly lay it down. Aces, kings or AK is special in that most of the time you know with a PFR they are holding something good so you can afford to play for stacks with a pretty good idea on what they have. ie: they aren't playing low pp's for sets.

As a disclaimer I only play $100NL so people aren't that aware and play just as bad as the $25NL folks.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

OESFD is all I've ever used it with.

You dont ever do it with anything else to mix it up? You play higher stakes, so isnt that fairly readable?

It's not very often I I'll hit a OESFD against the same player twice. You're right though, I probably should do it more. Actually, I've done it with top pair and a FD too.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Renton

I think calling preflop was a bad play in that hand you posted, Warpe.

I think auto-reraising preflop w/KK everytime tips your hand too often. I think JJ would have found a way to get away from his hand if I'd reraised preflop here. The average Party player interprets a preflop reraise as QQ+, unless you've given them lots of reasons to think otherwise.

Which is why I'm re-raising that guy's little information bump with a pretty wide range.

With a drawing hand that I feel like I have 11+ outs with or with a monster on a coordinated board against someone who has seen me make the play with a multi -draw.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Renton

I think calling preflop was a bad play in that hand you posted, Warpe.

I think auto-reraising preflop w/KK everytime tips your hand too often. I think JJ would have found a way to get away from his hand if I'd reraised preflop here. The average Party player interprets a preflop reraise as QQ+, unless you've given them lots of reasons to think otherwise.

Which is why I'm re-raising that guy's little information bump with a pretty wide range.

Agreed. It just doesn't necessarily have to include the goods all of the time. If an opponent likes his hand, I want him to keep liking it long enough for him to hand me his stack.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Which is why I'm re-raising that guy's little information bump with a pretty wide range.

Strategic decisions. There is no one true way.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Renton

I think calling preflop was a bad play in that hand you posted, Warpe.

I think auto-reraising preflop w/KK everytime tips your hand too often. I think JJ would have found a way to get away from his hand if I'd reraised preflop here. The average Party player interprets a preflop reraise as QQ+, unless you've given them lots of reasons to think otherwise.

Which is why I'm re-raising that guy's little information bump with a pretty wide range.

'


Agreed. It just doesn't necessarily have to include the goods all of the time. If an opponent likes his hand, I want him to keep liking it long enough for him to hand me his stack.

I didn't think calling was a bad play because i think you should always reraise KK. Quite contrary actually. What makes this a reraising spot is that you avoid inviting other callers behind because you are in early position. Your reraise isn't only for value, but to isolate position on the raiser and to limit the number of people to the flop.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

3bet all in with a flopped set.

I have cursed myself every time I have attempted this play, since the semi-fish with top pair usually has the sense to fold.

It's either a horrible play, or it might be just horrible with my table image. But then again, fish don't look at table image, so it must just be a horrible play.


Miffed please make your rebuttal.

I don't worry about isolating position overmuch (p'haps not enough?) as I expect these to come down to me and p/f raiser most of the time of their own accord.

Sorry Renton, didn't intend to hijack your thread.

no i hijacked it

Originally Posted by Renton

Miffed please make your rebuttal.

i have the table image at times that perhaps you do not?
I like being an action junky perhaps thats why it works for me.
I prefer a lot of the lines you have introduced or made more visible with hands that are strong but perhaps beaten in spots.

Id argue if i play a tighter/passive game when im card dead or waiting for good cards then other lines are far better.
I only get called at times because i make a point of folding or raising not often calling on the flop.

so basically all things being equal,

The best times to make this play is with combo draws and with sets on draw heavy boards to give the illusion that I am just making this play with a combo draw again.

that the general consensus?

Originally Posted by Renton

so basically all things being equal,

The best times to make this play is with combo draws and with sets on draw heavy boards to give the illusion that I am just making this play with a combo draw again.

that the general consensus?

or against a fish who flopped top pair and likes it
blind battles when you have a real hand (arguements for better lines however)

metagame/table image reasons. (3betting ace high is teh fun!)

im with you on this one, it seems like leading a turn gets more people to play back at you than 3-betting a flop.

Warpe, so if the UTG miniraised with 33, 77 or 99, you will be willing to hand over your stack to him all the time? The hand you post was very poorly played. I think you probably never lay down AA or KK. You called the miniraise, and allowed a bunch of people to see the flop cheaply. Don't you worry that most of the time someone will hit something weird and crack your MONSTER KK?

LOL...

Originally Posted by novel20

Warpe, so if the UTG miniraised with 33, 77 or 99, you will be willing to hand over your stack to him all the time? The hand you post was very poorly played. I think you probably never lay down AA or KK. You called the miniraise, and allowed a bunch of people to see the flop cheaply. Don't you worry that most of the time someone will hit something weird and crack your MONSTER KK?

LOL...

Sets don't play the flop that way most of the time. I'd be more worried about being cracked if my flop raise was smoothcalled. His line was consistent with an overpair. And you'd be wrong about me never laying down AA/KK.

Who are you, btw? Must've missed the intro post.

I 3-bet made sets,straights,flushes,boats,OESFD,FD with overs,FD with straight draw,two pairs,etc.

I always reraise QQ/KK/AK/AA preflop.I want to find out if I'm beat first qith AA-AKs,and then with AA I try to figure out best way to stack the villain presuming he misses his set or trips.

Warpe, so if the UTG miniraised with 33, 77 or 99, you will be willing to hand over your stack to him all the time? The hand you post was very poorly played. I think you probably never lay down AA or KK. You called the miniraise, and allowed a bunch of people to see the flop cheaply. Don't you worry that most of the time someone will hit something weird and crack your MONSTER KK?

LOL...

Yeah, nothing better than a smug, condescending critique from someone with 3 posts...

Just because someone doesn't have many posts on this website doesn't mean they're a bad player, nor does having many posts mean you're a great player.

Stop being post-ist

Originally Posted by midas06

Stop being post-ist

Just because someone doesn't have many posts on this website doesn't mean they're a bad player, nor does having many posts mean you're a great player.

Stop being post-ist

I forget, did I say anything about how good of a player new guy or Warpe was? Oh, that's right, no. I was talking about the annoying tone of his post, i.e. "MONSTER KK," "LOL," etc.

Am I allowed to be jerk-ist, Midas? Lemme know...

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

Am I allowed to be jerk-ist, Midas? Lemme know...

Only after another two hundred posts or so.

Huge draws and vulnerable monsters, usually.

lol, please excuse Warpe, he's a huge fishy 10NL playa.

I you all

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Huge draws and vulnerable monsters, usually.

I think this is good advice.

Also, something to add is that between all kinds of flop/turn lines you can take like b/3b, c/r + lead, c/c + lead, b/c + lead, b/c + check, etc., you want to have a certain balance in your game. For example, you don't want players to know that bet/call + lead = set and bet/3bet = big draw.

Now that said, IMO it's a lot more important to gain action on your sets then it is to gain fold equity on your draws, so against unknowns or bad players or players where I don't feel metagame is important, I try to take lines with draws that get people to fold and lines with sets that get me stacks.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Huge draws and vulnerable monsters, usually.

I think this is good advice.

Also, something to add is that between all kinds of flop/turn lines you can take like b/3b, c/r + lead, c/c + lead, b/c + lead, b/c + check, etc., you want to have a certain balance in your game. For example, you don't want players to know that bet/call + lead = set and bet/3bet = big draw.

Now that said, IMO it's a lot more important to gain action on your sets then it is to gain fold equity on your draws, so against unknowns or bad players or players where I don't feel metagame is important, I try to take lines with draws that get people to fold and lines with sets that get me stacks.

Does this line match this? I'm not worried about the result here (just the line) as he has the hand I don't want to see. Only a few hands with villain prior.

Full Tilt Poker Game #727732461: Table Madre Mesa - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:35:32 ET - 2006/06/20
Seat 1: Reapist ($41.45)
Seat 2: Garrett3 ($8.50)
Seat 3: JOYINREP ($19.30)
Seat 4: sbreeze777 ($13.65)
Seat 5: VCOOP ($27.95)
Seat 6: Myke0323 ($24.50)
Seat 7: doctor of dance ($29.05)
Seat 8: dewkissed ($11.65)
Seat 9: BluffieMcGee ($25.70)
BluffieMcGee posts the small blind of $0.10
Reapist posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to VCOOP [As Qs]
dewkissed: hey bluffie how's it goin tonite?
Garrett3 calls $0.25
JOYINREP folds
sbreeze777 folds
VCOOP raises to $1
BluffieMcGee: goin ok
BluffieMcGee: how are you
Myke0323 calls $1
doctor of dance folds
dewkissed folds
BluffieMcGee folds
Reapist calls $0.75
Garrett3 calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [Ah 2s Js]
Reapist checks
Garrett3 checks
VCOOP bets $3
dewkissed: doin pretty well...startin to get sleepy tho
BluffieMcGee: you look petty tonite
Myke0323 raises to $6
Reapist folds
Garrett3 folds
VCOOP raises to $26.75
Myke0323 calls $17.50, and is all in
VCOOP shows [As Qs]
Myke0323 shows [Jc Jh]
Uncalled bet of $3.25 returned to VCOOP
*** TURN *** [Ah 2s Js] [9c]
BluffieMcGee: yes sleepy
*** RIVER *** [Ah 2s Js 9c] [Td]
VCOOP shows a pair of Aces
Myke0323 shows three of a kind, Jacks
Myke0323 wins the pot ($48.55) with three of a kind, Jacks
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $51.10 | Rake $2.55
Board: [Ah 2s Js 9c Td]
Seat 1: Reapist (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Garrett3 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: JOYINREP didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: sbreeze777 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: VCOOP showed [As Qs] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: Myke0323 showed [Jc Jh] and won ($48.55) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 7: doctor of dance didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: dewkissed (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: BluffieMcGee (small blind) folded before the Flop