best way to build a Bankroll

when i was first starting out, i found the best way to build a strong bankroll is through playing 5 then 10 dollar sngs. then moving up to 20 dollar sngs. i think this is the best way for any beginning player to build his/her roll because the sngs at these levels are so easily beatable for any player with even a basic understanding of push/fold when the blinds get big. Within one month, i had enough to play 100nl and i never looked back since. Grinding at 25 nl these days is just not what it used to be. Money is much slower. just a tip to the people trying to build a roll. What you guys think?

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

when i was first starting out, i found the best way to build a strong bankroll is through playing 5 then 10 dollar sngs. then moving up to 20 dollar sngs. i think this is the best way for any beginning player to build his/her roll because the sngs at these levels are so easily beatable for any player with even a basic understanding of push/fold when the blinds get big. Within one month, i had enough to play 100nl and i never looked back since. Grinding at 25 nl these days is just not what it used to be. Money is much slower. just a tip to the people trying to build a roll. What you guys think?

I know that , personally, I am bored to tears playing any tournament form of poker. I love the intricacies of ring and don't mind if the $ comes a little slower at the low stakes, which in my experience hasn't come in slower. But I think I'm naturally more of a ring player to start with so maybe I just suck at SNG's lol.

agree on the sng part. For a new player sngs are very beatable (even though ive never been able to beat them :P ) but dont agree on 25nl. 25nl is still destroyable for any competant player who should make it to 100nl. Add to that bonus whoring for your first 3-6k and i think it isnt unrealistic anymore to set 10k as a 6month goal once you reach your 1st 1k and have enough experience to be familiar with the game
Add to that the fact their are still some great sites to play ring games where the play is just stupidly easy (party, bodog etc)

i agree. 10k in 6 months is very possible. although the player will have to be a very good player and move up as soon as possible.

i think its the amount of time you put in per day that matters more, but certainly you cant just break even.

Yeah, I've found recently (BR at 2.3k or so) that multitabling 4 $10 or $20 sng's of various sizes is about as profitable, if not more profitable, than some of the $0.25/$0.50 games I'll usually play. The games are pretty soft on stars.

Usually, it's just a matter of boredom, if I get bored of one, I'll play the other, sometimes play 2 sng tables & 2 ring tables, etc.

Another moneymaker that I've found recently are the $16 double shootouts to WSOP qualifiers, and $11 double shootouts to "the big one" ($1,000,000 guaranteed) on sundays. Format is really suited for my game, basically two consecutive one-table sng's, but with much slower blind structure giving you some comfortable time to play. I've won one of each in the past 2 days, but don't play on playing either, not until I'm a little more confident in my MTT play. Anyway, the competition I've run into is not that impressive in these tourneys, and the payoff is huge, and definitely winnable especially if there are two seats available.

another way: BONUS baby!

I must be doing something seriously wrong then...

My recent form on 5 and 10 dollar SNGs is woeful indeed and I am struggling to finish ITM. Ring is a bit better, but I am only making money at the IP $10NL tables. I play $25NL on Party and lose money in hands that I should be winning.

Ok, I'm new to all this as well (about 1.2k hands in four months) but, when people say that they moved up to 100NL in a few months, it makes me wonder how many hands they are playing and how much time they are devoting to poker every day.

I'd like to play more, but I have a job that takes up about 10 hours of my life a day. I also have limited money to spend on my learning tax, that's why I dropped down to $10NL. I plan to stay there until I murder the game every time I sit down, then I'm going to go back to the $25NL tables and play them until I murder them.

Is this the best thing to be doing?

Originally Posted by jameseyb

I must be doing something seriously wrong then...

My recent form on 5 and 10 dollar SNGs is woeful indeed and I am struggling to finish ITM. Ring is a bit better, but I am only making money at the IP $10NL tables. I play $25NL on Party and lose money in hands that I should be winning.

Ok, I'm new to all this as well (about 1.2k hands in four months) but, when people say that they moved up to 100NL in a few months, it makes me wonder how many hands they are playing and how much time they are devoting to poker every day.

I'd like to play more, but I have a job that takes up about 10 hours of my life a day. I also have limited money to spend on my learning tax, that's why I dropped down to $10NL. I plan to stay there until I murder the game every time I sit down, then I'm going to go back to the $25NL tables and play them until I murder them.

Is this the best thing to be doing?

1) Dedicate yourself to either ring games or SnGs. If you want to move up fast you need to obsess about your game. Analyse your big hands, think about everthing as you do it and why you are doing it. Read FTR alot, post hands, read and post comments on other peoples hands. Criticise and be criticised. If you do this you won't ever pay a learning tax.

2) Move up when your bankroll alllows. Be eager about moving up not scared. The players are never much better at a certain level than the level below. You won't notice the difference. It really is a very gentle slope. Set yourself a limit (in buy-ins) that you can lose before you move back down. I reccomend 4 buy-ins.

3) Learn to multitable. I play 1.2k hands in 5 hours. Start with one table then add another. Play like this for a few days and then add another table. Keep going like ths and very soon you will wonder how you ever played 2 tables. Consentrate on the action. Notice betting patterns. Check out the current issue of cardplayer magazine for an article on this (www.cardplayer.com).

4)

Originally Posted by jameseyb

I plan to stay there until I murder the game every time I sit down,

This will never happen, get that idea out of your head. It's all avout the long term. On that topic, keep records. Know your win rate, (even though it will always be inaccurate) it helps your confidence. Mark your records with little comments about what happened that session. Things like "played well, lost with KK all-in preflop twice". This will help you feel better when you show a net loss over 4 days in a row. Yes, that will happen to you eventually. You goal in poker is to deduce the right action to take given the information you have available in relation to the particular situation you are in at the present time in the present hand. It is not to attempt to win every day or every hand.

5) Develop/learn a game, a system, and stick to it. Low stakes games can be beaten with a simple repeditive system of folding bad hands and playing good ones. Be weak-tight to a certain extent. Play ABC poker consistintly. Read all of Aokronglys posts. Be disciplined. Be patient and level headed. Teach yourself not to tilt, ever. If you get emotional step away form the tables. I remember I used to play 10NL and I would step away from the computer for a while if I lost a $2 pot. I have conditioned myself now to the point where I could lose $1000 in a day and not even blink or feel the need to take a break or be angry.

6) Never get cocky or arrogant. Cockyness will be the death of your poker game. You will have periods where you will run really good and play really good. You'll feel like you own the poker table, like your playing on an ATM. Make every effort to dispel these thoughts as quickly as possible. They will make you over aggressive and you will make mistakes. See the "Newbie circle of death" post. It happened to me and damn near ended my poker career, do yourself a favour and learn from other peoples mistakes.

6) To give you some idea of what it takes, here is a list of how many hands I played at each level untill I had 20 buy-ins for the next level.

13/6/2005 - I started with a free $10 that Royal Vegas poker gave me.

10NL - 30,000 hands of ring game play. I was breakeven over 15,000 of these hands, at which point I read a post by Aokrongly about his "19 hands" system. Then I started to win.
I also spent a month 1 tabling SnGs. About 200 of them in total - breakeven.
25NL - 6000 hands including my first 6 buy-in downswing.
50NL - 9000 hands. Then I moved to 100NL.
100NL - At this point I encountered my greatest test so far. I started well before losing $1200 in a week (Newbie circle of death), leaving me breakeven over 9000 hands. I got scared, withdrew half my bankroll and moved back to 50NL.
50NL (again) - Another 10,000 hands. Gaining confidence.
100NL (again) - Played a few thousand hands here before winning $3000 in a MTT and suddenly finding myself with a $5800 bankroll. I tentativly move to 200NL.
200NL - 16,000 hands. Confidence is high. I run good with no major downswings (>3 buy-ins). $2000 in withdrawals mean that I have to play some extra hands at this level, probably could have done it in 10,000 hands.
400NL (25 buy-ins) - Just moved up here a few days ago (16/4/2006). I haven't played enough hands to give comment but I feel I can beat it. Just need to keep a level head.

So there you go. Give it another 99,000 hands (which go past alot faster then you would think) of solid, patient, disciplined poker and you never know what you might accomplish!

Holy shit that's a long post. The things people will do rather than study!

my slightly biased opinion of profitablity:
early bankroll building stages (25NL or below) : low stakes ring ~ low stakes sngs
middle stages: midstakes ring > sngs
as you get better at tournaments: mid range buyin mtts > or ~ mid stakes ring
late stages: 1000nl+ >>>> any sort of tournaments

note I play almost exclusively ring

I think the best way of building a bankroll is to be a Holdem Master and rake HUGE pots off of fish with any two cards. You know, open push with the nuts and have four people call.

That's how I am doing it anyways.

Awsome post, Irish!

I have been playing with the idea of getting back online to play to get some stats on my game, but I don't want to invest too much of my br into it. I think I'll start at 25nl so that 5 bills is enough.

I've been running pretty good, but there are situations that come up where I'm not sure I made the right move. Or situations where I make a move on guts and tells and bearly get a guy to fold the best hand. It's kind of scary, but I can't have those kind of gut and tell things online, so I figure I can strengthen my game a lot by playing online.

The best way to build an online poker bankroll is to get a job and then deposit the money.

Originally Posted by Renton

I think the best way of building a bankroll is to be a Holdem Master and rake HUGE pots off of fish with any two cards. You know, open push with the nuts and have four people call.

That's how I am doing it anyways.

just so new players dont get confused, it doesnt actually happen like this. I've probably had the situation "open push for the nuts and have four people call" happen maybe once in my poker career.

What exactly were you trying to say here?

NL ring is a pure grind, no matter what strategy you employ. It certainly isnt a "get rich quick" scheme, especially at the lower limits. Building a bankroll takes an extrodinary amount of time and effort and an out-of-control obsession with the game. Over the past 10 months, I've personally put alot more time into this "hobby" than I'd care to add up.
Playing and building your BR is alot of fun, but remember that it comes with the price of alot of stress, and inevitable huge downswings.

Just a heads up.

It's a joke.

Originally Posted by underminedsk

Originally Posted by Renton

I think the best way of building a bankroll is to be a Holdem Master and rake HUGE pots off of fish with any two cards. You know, open push with the nuts and have four people call.

That's how I am doing it anyways.

just so new players dont get confused, it doesnt actually happen like this. I've probably had the situation "open push for the nuts and have four people call" happen maybe once in my poker career.

What exactly were you trying to say here?

NL ring is a pure grind, no matter what strategy you employ. It certainly isnt a "get rich quick" scheme, especially at the lower limits. Building a bankroll takes an extrodinary amount of time and effort and an out-of-control obsession with the game. Over the past 10 months, I've personally put alot more time into this "hobby" than I'd care to add up.
Playing and building your BR is alot of fun, but remember that it comes with the price of alot of stress, and inevitable huge downswings.

Just a heads up.

i was just making fun of bigboy some more.

Originally Posted by Renton

i was just making fun of bigboy some more.

oh...in that case, please continue.

renton ur envy of my bankroll and game is getting old. play me in a 100 dollar heads up sng and beat me or else don't talk about me anymore. ooh yea i forgot 100 bucks is like 1 third of ur bankroll. im sorry.

PPPPPPPZZZZZZOOOOWNED =)

oh and guys on a serious note. I have found that when i first started playing, contrary to #1 of irish eyes' post (the whole thing was a great post otherwise), sngs and ring games really compliment eachother well. Sngs and ring games teach different sets of skill that are even more useful when you understand them through experiance. Combined, they will make you a better poker player when you finally decide to settle on a certain game as your bread and butter.

i actually do envy your game. I hope to be playing at your table in a couple of months.

I envy your game too.

Irish,

Fantastic post! It certainly enhances a lot of the advice that I've been given already and leaves me with more choices to make about which direction to go in, although right now, it's looking like I'll be staying with ring for a while.

The one issue I have is with multi-tabling. I tried it once for a few hands and it takes a lot of concentration, arguably too much at the level I am playing at right now. I'll give it a try at $10NL and see what happens though.

Many thanks for the advice,

James

so... when we're saying sngs are a better way to up the BR, isn't that basically saying SNGs make more money?

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

oh and guys on a serious note. I have found that when i first started playing, contrary to #1 of irish eyes' post (the whole thing was a great post otherwise), sngs and ring games really compliment eachother well. Sngs and ring games teach different sets of skill that are even more useful when you understand them through experiance. Combined, they will make you a better poker player when you finally decide to settle on a certain game as your bread and butter.

I...um...*cough*...*gag*...actually have t-to...*gasp*...agree...with you there, bigboy. I started out the same way and while I mostly concentrate on ring nowadays a grounding in both ring and tourney play is essential.

Originally Posted by jameseyb

Irish,

Fantastic post!

Thank you.

Originally Posted by jameseyb

The one issue I have is with multi-tabling. I tried it once for a few hands and it takes a lot of concentration, arguably too much at the level I am playing at right now. I'll give it a try at $10NL and see what happens though.

Multitabling gets alot easier when you have your game together. If you keep playing then you see similar situations enough times over and over that you automatically have a very good idea what to do. If you play enough eventually all the simple decisions become almost robotic and you only have to concentrate on the odd stickler of a hand. Because of this you can play >4 tables at once and only ever really ahve one stickler hand occuring at one time. The rest of the hands on the other tables get played robotically leaving you time to think about the one difficult hand. It's really just a matter of practice and confidence in your game.

Originally Posted by bigboy5540

oh and guys on a serious note. I have found that when i first started playing, contrary to #1 of irish eyes' post (the whole thing was a great post otherwise), sngs and ring games really compliment eachother well. Sngs and ring games teach different sets of skill that are even more useful when you understand them through experiance. Combined, they will make you a better poker player when you finally decide to settle on a certain game as your bread and butter.

Its probably just a matter of personality. I find that personally I do things better if I commit myself to one unique thing and really get deep with it. I used to find that when I played both I would just get decent at the two styles of game but never really really good at either one.

But yeah deffinitly at some stage of your poker career learn to play both types of game. There's no doubt it will further your skills in some way.