Beginners: Consider Stud and Stud Variants to Clear Bonuses

Spenda, although this is not a NL post, its target audience is mostly in this forum and they'd not usually venture to Every Which Poker. I'd appreciate it if you could leave it here.

Bonuses or Boni? Whatever. You know what I mean.

If you've ever played in a Poker Room with a contributed rake rule for Points (versus a dealt rule like at Stars), you know how long it can take a tight player to clear a bonus at microstakes. You have to see a flop to accumulate any points and playing 18/12 at NL10 just does not get it done. I know I've abandoned a couple of bonuses at rooms where I didn't very carefully read the Bonus TOC, because plucking off my toenails would have been more fun than continuing to grind.

If you find yourself in this situation at a contributed rake room, consider playing fixed-rate Seven-Card Stud, Stud/8 or Razz to clear your bonus. The beautiful thing about these games is that, instead of a blind like you'd post in HE or Omaha, you pay a small ante on each hand. This ante counts as you having contributed to the pot. Playing 18% of your hands in NL, you would earn poker points on less than 2 hands per full ring orbit. I say less considering sometimes the blinds will fold and you'll pay no rake, therefore no points are awarded. Play 18% of your hands in Stud or a Stud variant and you'll earn points on all 8 out of 8 hands in the orbit (note that Stud games are capped at 8 players).

Hello bonus clearance at multiple times the rate you were clearing before!

Does the presence of an ante mean it's a more expensive game to play? Compared to other Fixed Limit games, not really. Take $1/$2 Fixed Limit Hold'em. Each full ring orbit will cost you $1.50 in forced blind payment, or $0.15/hand. Compare that to $1/$2 Stud, where the ante is usually 10% of the small bet, or $0.10. In addition to the ante, there is a bring-in. The bring-in is half of the small bet, or $0.50 in this example, and the player with the lowest up-card is forced to post a bring-in. On average, the bring-ins should even out amongst the players so you'll post about once per orbit. If the antes cost you $0.80 per orbit and you'll post a bring-in for $0.50, that's ($1.30 per orbit / 8 hands) $0.16/hand. So, we're talking a penny difference per orbit. It's small price to pay considering the rate at which you'll clear the bonus as well as the softness of the games.

Yep, I said soft games. That's the other good thing about Stud and Stud variants. It's not even remotely hard at stakes up to $2/$4 to to find multiple players playing 50%-80% of their hands from any position, particularly in Razz. The games are fun considering the action and how often big hands come into play and for a weak player who likes to gambool, this is very entertaining. You can take advantage of that quite easily. Spend even a little bit of time studying and you'll be one of the few players at the table who knows the game.

On Networks with multiple skins, after you clear your first bonus super-quick by playing Stud, you can sign up for another room immediately and play against the same players. This sort of bonus whoring is a great way to grow your roll exponentially.

Think it over. Good luck to you if you decide to go that route.

Things to keep in mind:
- It's extremely difficult to play Stud on more than 2 tables at a time. There's a lot of action and upcards to pay attention to. If you're a beginner though, you may not be playing more than that anyway.

- Stud and Stud variants can be swingy, particularly the low versions. You will get sucked out on, probably even more often than in NL. Do not tilt as a result. Know that going in, that superior skill will prevail and just as quickly as your garph took a nosedive, it can recover.

- You will get called names if anyone finds out you play Razz, names like pansie and pussy and wuss and ladyboy and limpdick and razzamatazz and Razz Hands and Shitty and Shittypansiewusspussy. It's ok. It's worth it every time the clown with QJ2T showing calls you down and the pot gets shipped to you. Be brave.

A little example to show the math:

I'm playing an Ongame room at the moment. I 2-tabled a little $1/$2 5-max FL at 30% VPIP and cleared about 22 pts in an hour for a measly $2.75 bonus equity.

I then 2-tabled $1/$2 Stud at 30% VPIP and cleared 115 pts in an hour, or $14.38 in bonus equity.

Same money at risk, about the same number of hands played, but with Stud I'll clear this puppy about 5 times faster.

nice post, sooo wish i could play sites with multiple skins (US player)

Originally Posted by kfaess

nice post, sooo wish i could play sites with multiple skins (US player)

While you won't clear a bonus at Stars or Tilt much quicker (beyond being able to play more hands at Stud and Stud Variants than tight NLHE guidlines allow for), the other comments still apply. Even on Stars, the average player plays FAR too many hands and goes too far with the hands they do play. This means big pots and action. A player bored with the NLHE grind would be well served to mix up his or her play.

The 8-game tables at Stars are even wilder, but that requires knowledge of other games as well.

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Originally Posted by kfaess

nice post, sooo wish i could play sites with multiple skins (US player)

While you won't clear a bonus at Stars or Tilt much quicker (beyond being able to play more hands at Stud and Stud Variants than tight NLHE guidlines allow for), the other comments still apply. Even on Stars, the average player plays FAR too many hands and goes too far with the hands they do play. This means big pots and action. A player bored with the NLHE grind would be well served to mix up his or her play.

The 8-game tables at Stars are even wilder, but that requires knowledge of other games as well.

Is super-system I, II enough to beat 7-stud, or do you have any recommended reading?

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Is super-system I, II enough to beat 7-stud, or do you have any recommended reading?

It's a great start. I'm a profitable player having only read Super System, the Every Which Poker forum here and 2+2. That said, Chip's Super System chapter on Stud Hi is a relatively boring read. It's just not written in a clear manner. Sklansky's Stud/8 and the Lowball chapter by that Howard Hughes guy are better.

Is my profit maximized though? Definitely not. I'd be well served to read additional books, as with any variant. I'll be ordering Sklansky's Seven Card Stud for Advanced players just as soon as I get around to it.

razz clearing bonuses at low stakes using a strategy that can be learned in about 15 minutes is a great way for a beginner to build a roll.

Just be careful of stud8b, I tried a few times and lost. And I'm very experienced at split games because omaha8b is my main game

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

razz clearing bonuses at low stakes using a strategy that can be learned in about 15 minutes is a great way for a beginner to build a roll.

QFT. Razz has to be the softest form of poker on the net currently, and that's kind of strange given that it's also probably the simplest...

What are some good resources for razz strategy?

Originally Posted by siltstrider

What are some good resources for razz strategy?

I based my strategy on what is in the Full Tilt Poker Tournament Book, what I read in Brunson's books (Negreanu's lowball section is decent), and what I experienced playing.

Another option now is to take a look at the videos we have on Grinderschool. There are currently two videos specifically covering razz (one is cash games, the other is SNGs), with a third coming out later this week. That content will continue to grow, after I've cycled through including more on some other non-hold'em games. I should note, however, that our non-hold'em content is only available with a full subscription (i.e. not the micro stakes subscription).

- Jeffrey "JGB146" Blake, Grinderschool Admin

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

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- You will get called names if anyone finds out you play Razz, names like pansie and pussy and wuss and ladyboy and limpdick and razzamatazz and Razz Hands and Shitty and Shittypansiewusspussy. It's ok. It's worth it every time the clown with QJ2T showing calls you down and the pot gets shipped to you. Be brave.

I was taking a drink when I got to this, now I need papertowel lol.

In all seriousness, this is actually really interesting. I'll definitely have to try this out sometime. Thanks!

This is a good way to take a break from your regular game too. Or just as a change of pace. I'm often doing this at the times I want to play, but the kids are going nuts and I know the game wont have my full attention for an extended time. With these games, I can sit out and return without missing anything important(imo).

I usually play stud/8 or razz as my choice and usually 6 tables if there are that many going. Once you get used to the games, adding tables is easier,imo, at poo flinging minibet, than at a nl or plo.

And if you have a big, contributed, bonus to clear. This is definately the way to go. The ongame ones are easy this way.

instead of focusing so hard to clear the bonus, why dont u just play the game you're trying to get good at? putting in more volume is better than learning a new variant of poker unless you're already in tune with stud

Originally Posted by AFchung

instead of focusing so hard to clear the bonus, why dont u just play the game you're trying to get good at? putting in more volume is better than learning a new variant of poker unless you're already in tune with stud

But in reality we are looking for the most profit
so if razz is really the softest game online, then maybe it's worth learning it and possibly playing it full time

Originally Posted by AFchung

instead of focusing so hard to clear the bonus, why dont u just play the game you're trying to get good at? putting in more volume is better than learning a new variant of poker unless you're already in tune with stud

Valid to a point. If your goal is to learn NL, absolutely, stay there and grind your way up through the limits. Each level prepares you for the next. Bonuses are complimentary but not necessary.

If your goal is to play poker and make $$, bonus whoring is an excellent way to exponentially build your roll. In my own situation, I cash out fairly often for assorted reasons, so it's not a concern to prepare myself for the next level. I've played there and had some success there. It's more about being well-rolled for the next level. I then keep bonus whoring until such point as I'm rolled to play where my hourly rate without bonuses is greater than what I would make whoring at smaller rooms.

Originally Posted by iopq

so if razz is really the softest game online, then maybe it's worth learning it and possibly playing it full time

Also this. There's something to be said for playing where your edge is greatest. The average micro NL player is not a stupid as once was.

http://www.doylespokerroom.com/poker...ker_online.cfm

I'll post this for a couple of reasons:

1) Steve Zolotow's comments on the linked-to page are apt here, on the value in learning variants.

2) Free Super System II (yay, free book!). The Hold'em sections in SSII are meh, but there's some good information in the other sections, where literature is not quite as plentiful. Of particular relevance to this thread, Todd Brunson wrote a section on Stud/8.

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Of particular relevance to this thread, Todd Brunson wrote a section on Stud/8.

Did you like Brunson's section on Stud/8? I didn't think it was all that great when I skimmed it the first time. Ended up going with Ray Zee's split pot book instead (which also gives enough of a background on LO8 to make me a reasonable player in PLO8 games).

If you like his section though, I'll give it another chance and read more thoroughly.

Originally Posted by iopq

so if razz is really the softest game online, then maybe it's worth learning it and possibly playing it full time

The question is: softest game at what levels?

Razz is simple enough that you pretty much have two types of players. Those who are basically clueless (aside from knowing the rules) and those who aren't. There's not much market for games with stakes high enough to compete with even low stakes nlhe for profitability, just because there's not enough game availability.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Of particular relevance to this thread, Todd Brunson wrote a section on Stud/8.

Did you like Brunson's section on Stud/8? I didn't think it was all that great when I skimmed it the first time. Ended up going with Ray Zee's split pot book instead (which also gives enough of a background on LO8 to make me a reasonable player in PLO8 games).

If you like his section though, I'll give it another chance and read more thoroughly.

I've not read any other Stud/8 books (I've actually probably read more on O/8 than Stud/8) so can't say. Compared to the general advice given on poker forums though, I thought it was just ok. Considering it's free literature and advice contained in one place, it's a fine start. The fundamentals are there.