Beginner-ish hand question

I'll start just with my hand:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($25)
BB ($56.30)
UTG ($32.85)
UTG+1 ($12.55)
MP1 ($10.35)
Hero ($27.45)
MP3 ($40.60)
CO ($20)
Button ($44.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, A.
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.5, 2 folds, SB calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25, UTG calls $0.25.

Flop: ($2) 5, J, 8 (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $4.25, UTG raises to $14.75, Hero calls $14.75, SB folds, BB raises to $60.05 (All-In), UTG calls $17.60 (All-In), Hero calls $12.20 (All-In).

Turn: ($121.35) 6 (4 players, 3 all-in)

River: ($121.35) 8 (4 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: $121.35

I put both of my opponents on hitting the flush at the flop. I figured they'd both be all in for a huge pot, and therefor I'd get good implied odds with my ~25% chance to hit the nuts flush ($27 for a 105 pot). Of course the next card comes and makes a straight flush. Was this a stupid call by my part, or a good play with a bad beat? Please rip me apart if this was not the right call so I can atleast learn from it

That's fairly terrible, mainly because it's pretty doubtful they both have a flush, and because if they both did, you're not going to hit anywhere near 25% of the time, because they hold four of the hearts.

I would have liked it better maybe if you raised, but even the, you'd be three-betting a bettor and a raiser. That's probably the easiest flop fold you'll ever come across. You were extremely lucky in the pot after you played it about as badly as you could have.

Based on what they were playing I could say with 90% certainty that they were either holding a flush or a flush draw (they ended up with 10-2hearts and 7-9 hearts).

But moral of the story, either raise (which they would have called anyway, but I know they weren't top caliber opponents) or back out of the pot (assuming < 15% pot bet?)

Also how would you recommend handling that preflop? The whole table was playing loose with trash cards, so I was sure if I should really pop it preflop and go into a big pot blind or what.

If the whole table is playing loose, you generally want to step up your preflop raise to an amount that will narrow it to just a couple of opponents. A minraise is not going to accomplish that by any means.

Would they have called your raise on the flop? Certainly, they ahve a flush for crying out loud. But it's still a better play than it was played. The proper play was to fold the flop.

I don't understand what you'r etalking about when you say a 15% flop bet. The pot was two dollars to start, someone bet 2x the pot AND GOT RAISED. Your draw is extremely unprofitable in this spot.

For instance, pretend that after you called the original bettor just called. The six of hearts rolls of on the turn, do you think you're making another dime here? I doubt it.

i cannot stand a minraise pf w/ AKo. who is going to fold out of this weakness? your job with a hand that IS NOT MADE and doesnt do terribly well in multiway pots is to THIN THE FIELD, if you decide you want to play. and you will not accomplish this with a damned minraise. horrible.

flush flops, and you have only a $2 pot. someone overbets the pot, another raises the overbet substantially, and you figure you have a "decent" shot at the nuts? that may be true, but you COLD-CALLED a $15 bet into a $22 pot...and you DONT CLOSE THE ACTION against a guy who overbet the flop right out of the gate. please tell me you see how bad this is with only a draw?? you have to feel your overcards are no good here if they hit, and you are pinning your entire stack on a draw. and by your count, you figure there are 8 hearts in hands already (2 in each of your opponents, one in yours, and 3 on the board). that only leaves 5 to give you the "nuts" and a couple of those are tainted (str8flush potential). realistically, you have about 3.5 outs. not to mention that a set may participate here, too, and HE has the real redraw to the boat. so, even if your heart does hit on the turn or river, if the board pairs, you may be out, too.

and, again, you put your WHOLE STACK on the line after COLD-CALLING a $15 raise on the flop where you did not CLOSE THE ACTION.

i think that says it all.

Wow you butchered it.

Make a man sized raise preflop. If its a lose table you want to one guy with Ax to call you and bust on an A high flop.

You say you thought both of your opponents hit the flush. If that was the case then there are only 5 hearts left in the deck.

So you are taking about 2:1 (at best. The other guy might not even call) on a about a 4:1 shot. Thats a pretty disgusting call.

That's an Instant fold for me.. you were lucky enough to see one huge RR and you still called?! A Straight flush was the least of your problems.

suggested read: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-31191.htm

ok so your A was a part of the suited flop but still your odds were way off. pretty awful play-

Fold, and make it $2.50 pre while you're there.

Originally Posted by Ash256

Fold, and make it $2.50 pre while you're there.

i hope your not suggesting a 10X preflop raise from UTG?! thats equally stupid at these stakes. this isnt the partypoker of 3 years ago.

4X should be fine...just not the minraise.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by Ash256

Fold, and make it $2.50 pre while you're there.

i hope your not suggesting a 10X preflop raise from UTG?! thats equally stupid at these stakes. this isnt the partypoker of 3 years ago.

4X should be fine...just not the minraise.

Lol.. I was wasted at the time, I meant $1.25! And he aint UTG, UTG has limped, which gives us license to raise it up a fair bit.

either way, we both can say, "my bad," and move on, eh?

funny that you were drunk. i wasnt. lol.

lol

after looking back through these replies and thinking over the hand for a few days I see what you mean. That was quite an awful play. Mostly in the past I have played limit HE at the casino and I'm really learning how to bet to maximize profit. Its now pretty obvious to me why that was a stupid call as well.

I'll probably have a couple more stupid hands in the next few months for you guys to pick apart

A semi-related question while we're at it:

If I had AKh, and hit that flop, how would you have played it? In retrospect I definitely raise more to try to eliminate the 5-7 hearts card preflop. But it seems like kind of a trap hand at that point had that same guy called.

Sometimes whatever you raise preflop just isnt enough and you end up firing a second barrel then a crying call. (I was only trying to get one of the shorties to call)
Gotta love bodog




odog History for Hand #701546941
Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007-05-07 01:19:41
Table 'Opava' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: ishouldntbet ($15.00)
Seat 2: rewfie40 ($10.00)
Seat 3: jackets30 ($58.88)
Seat 4: hero ($31.55)
Seat 5: Grand Poobah ($22.90)
Seat 6: shipster ($27.25)
Seat 7: ktr12321 ($4.25)
Seat 8: IpickWinner ($7.77)
Seat 9: cornerstoneRAS ($15.15)
------------------------------
NEW HAND
hero: posts the small blind $0.10
Grand Poobah: posts the big blind $0.25
rewfie40: posts the big blind $0.25
--- DEALING POCKETS
hero is dealt [Ad,Kd]
shipster:, it's your turn. You have 10 seconds to act
shipster: calls $0.25
ktr12321: folds
IpickWinner: raises $0.25 to $0.50
cornerstoneRAS: folds
ishouldntbet: folds
rewfie40: raises $0.50 to $1.00
jackets30: folds
hero: raises $9.00 to $10.00
Grand Poobah: folds
shipster: calls $9.75
IpickWinner: goes all in $7.27
rewfie40: folds
--- DEALING FLOP [7d,2h,9s]
hero: bets $11.00
shipster:, it's your turn. You have 10 seconds to act
shipster: goes all in $17.25
hero: calls $6.25
shipster: shows [4c,5c], High Card, Nine
IpickWinner: shows [Qs,Jh], High Card, Queen
--- DEALING TURN [Qh]
--- DEALING RIVER [6c]
hero: shows [Ad,Kd], High Card, Ace
shipster: shows [4c,5c], High Card, Queen
IpickWinner: shows [Qs,Jh], a Pair, Queens
Hand 701546941:
hero: wins side pot($38.04)
with High Card, Ace, Ad
Hand 701546941:
IpickWinner: wins main pot($23.99)
with a Pair, Queens
shipster: is sitting out
------------------------------

Originally Posted by digsel

If I had AKh, and hit that flop, how would you have played it? In retrospect I definitely raise more to try to eliminate the 5-7 hearts card preflop. But it seems like kind of a trap hand at that point had that same guy called.

Im not 100% sure what you mean. I think you mean you have AK and you flop the A high flush Vs a straight flush. In that case you have no choice but to lose your stack. There are so many other hands that will pay off that you cant fold to the risk of a 2 card straight flush when youre only 100bbs deep.

In a (properly) raised pot this is even more true.