Beginner Bankroll Management advice.

I've been lurking here for a few weeks now. I am in the process of reading several of the forums (Beginner's Circle, Hold-em Strategies, Hold-em Hand Histories) in their entirity, from the last page to the first.

In a month or two (I'm saving up for my initial deposit, in between paying to fix my wife's car and other non-fun things) I'm planning on making an initial deposit of $60 on Poker Stars, since they have $.01/$.02 tables. I plan on using the 30x buyin rule to manage my bankroll, and I'm planning on playing NL ring games. My 1st major goal is to build my bankroll to $750 so I can play $25 tables, at which time I'll probably switch to Party Poker.

I read somewhere in the forums on this site that it's good to have a few rules written down, so I have attempted to commit my bankroll management rules into writing. Here they are so far:

* I must have 30x buy-in for any ring game I enter
* If I double up, I will leave the room, and take a break before playing again.
* If I lose my buy-in, I'll quit for the day.

The main trouble I'm having with these (purposely conservative) rules is how to handle table changes. If I select a table, sit for a few hands, then due to player changes, etc. decide to switch tables, how should these rules apply? If I'm down to 75% of my initial buy-in for the day, I don't particularly want to sit at a new table with only that amount. However, I don't want to create a loophole in my rules, which ideally should protect me from losing more than one buy-in per day, where I can lose money, then change tables repeatedly, putting more than one buy-in per day at risk. I'd be glad to hear any thoughts that you guys may have on how to refine this list of rules.

* If I double up, I will leave the room, and take a break before playing again.

Why?

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Why?

-'rilla

To preserve my winnings. If I wait a while and sit at another table, and abide by my rules, there should be no way for me to end the day with less than I started with.

Also, I felt like if I entered a room with the sole purpose of doubling up, then I have a clear-cut goal, and I know when it has been completed. In my experience on play money tables, if I hang around long enough, I'll eventually end up loosening my play, and often will lose my whole stack. This is what I want to avoid.

As I've never played for real money before, I'm wanting to start out with overly conservative guidelines, and loosen them as I become more comfortable, rather start with loose rules and have to tighten them because I'm losing too much money.

I am patient, which I hope is an attribute in this game, and don't mind waiting a while before trying to kick it into high gear. Also, I'm going to attempt to build my bankroll without ever having to redeposit.

A large stack is a formidable thing. Get up when the game is no longer as good as it was, but not because you have a stack, or lose one. When the game changes and the fish leave, or too many sharks join, or you are not playing your best game... then it is time to leave.

Large stack = easier leverage

Leverage = more money

More money = self explanatory.

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Large stack = easier leverage.

I agree with this statement, and have used it to my advantage in play-money games. However, I expect to go through a whole new learning curve when I transition to real money games.

Once I feel I'm through the learning curve of real money games, and am confident in my abilities, I'll probably drop that rule. However, if I choose to stick with it in the beginning, would I be at risk of losing money, or would I merely risk earning money more slowly?

when you are running good... don't run away!

If I lose my buy-in, I'll quit for the day.

I know you're probably using this as a safety net, but I think this policy may lead to you not playing as aggresively as you should when you have the best of it but there is a chance you'll be out drawn. Let's say you have top set and there are flush and str8 draws out on the turn and some one moves in for their stack - calling is the right play and is +EV but sometimes they are going to hit and you'll lose your buyin. But why quit playing there? If that guy makes the same play again the odds are you'll make the buyin right back.

If you double up at a table, it might say something about how easy the table is. Leaving a soft table is a silly move.

-'rilla

One, don't be afraid of the big stack. Learn to wield it with authority and bust up the smaller stacks just like in a tournament. Just remember not to do anything stupid.

Second, you are putting too waaay too much pressure on yourself. You will get busted easily and repeatedly playing NLHE. If you don't, you are not playing aggressive enough and you are playing in a fantasy world where short term luck and bad beats don't happen. I have yet to find that world.

The reason you are starting with 30 buy-ins is to protect you mentally. When you drop 4 buy ins in one day, you have plenty of ammo to come back the next day or week and you are still not playing with scared money. Even if you are playing near perfectly, it is not uncommon to drop 8-10 buy ins.

It sounds like you got your head in the right place and you are starting at a level that your BR can handle. Just don't obsess too much about the money and money management as it will stifle your aggression.

Third, don't limit yourself to one buy in per day. If you mix it up in a hand and loose half your stack, rebuy so that you always have the max buy-in. Otherwise, you are loosing out on some real $ when you do get your big hands and hit a nice flop.

I've read the advice to leave a table after doubling up, here on FTR. It is not bad advice, but it doesn't apply everywhere to everyone. This self-discipline rule is a reasonable tactic for someone with a short bankroll and an early learning curve. Here's why:

• it's easy to negatively change your game when you are up a bit &
  
  the odds change for smart opponents to call your bets when you have a big stack because of implied odds (it becomes an expensive lesson) &
  
  you'll feel better about your progress when you are 'banking' your successes, even after some inevitable losses

But after that, when your game become more adaptable, and you understand reads and odds better, stay at that fat table with your fat stack -- you will get more folds from the other players, and will continue to play at a table with folks who have already proven they are willing to give you money.

There is so much great advice on FTR. But it takes a while to learn to apply the advice in the right situations, and that the advice doesn't always apply to you. There even are opposing options that are both right, but one one option is right for you, and the other option is there to help you read opposing players.

Good luck and welcome.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply.

I'll definitely keep the 30x buy-in rule, but will probably relax/eliminate the others. In the beginning, I probably will leave a table any time I've made significant forward progress, but with the intent of learning to leave based on table conditions, and not just leaving because I happen to have made some money and am afraid to lose it.

If I do lose, I'll probably post some hand histories and try to figure out what I did wrong before immediately re-buying... at least until what I think I did wrong starts to match the comments I get in the hand histories forum...

Anyway, thanks again for all the feedback.

AH! Excellent topic!

(Cheers Legend for pointing me this way)

This applies very much with my recent history of playing.

I signed up for a site and got handed what converted to about $9. I'm too poor and stubborn to put in my own money in on top of this and have been trying to build a bankroll too.

I suffer terribly from the things you've forseen here fork;

I have limited selfcontrol over when to play and not to play. My bankbalance acts somewhat like a yo-yo, a problem which I am trying to solve.

I don't leave a table when I double up. There are ups and downs to this.

As I am learning the game it can of course at times be costly. On ocasions when I play the odds against draws it can be darned well frustrating (more than normal as I am underbankrolled for the tables). More commonly thogh I loose a lot of money making mistakes myself.

The advantage I've found are that I am learning how to be a big stack at the table now, rather than in later days when I intend to move up to bigger blinds. In the long run I reckon it will make me more profit, albiet it will take longer for me to reap any rewards.

I know you've already decided to change your rules, but further to what you've done I'd suggest you make the following your key concern.

Are you tilted over a hand you just lost (or anything else in life for that matter)?

Are you tired? Have you had a busy, stressful day?

Are you getting over excited about hands you just won?

These, I reckon, are the sorts of things you need to consider as rules, if you are any of them you should obviously not play.

I just wish you better luck at following them than I've had. It's a real trick being honest with yourself I find.

* I must have 30x buy-in for any ring game I enter

Not that I think the 30X buy-in applies to the .01/.02 NL game, but the max stack in that game is $5. You would need $150 to consider playing that game based on that rule.

Originally Posted by lonnie

Not that I think the 30X buy-in applies to the .01/.02 NL game, but the max stack in that game is $5. You would need $150 to consider playing that game based on that rule.

Really?

Do $2 tables exist anywhere? If not, then I'll just hang around at the $5 tables until I have 30x buy-ins for the next higher tables.

Originally Posted by Bezique

I know you've already decided to change your rules, but further to what you've done I'd suggest you make the following your key concern.

Are you tilted over a hand you just lost (or anything else in life for that matter)?

Are you tired? Have you had a busy, stressful day?

Are you getting over excited about hands you just won?

Yeah.... the basic goal of my rules was to artificially protect me from tilt/over-confidence until I build up the ability to make the call in a variety of situations based on a variety of factors. From the feedback I've gotten, I was probably being a little overly cautious (sounds like the 30x buy-in and low limits is sufficient). I think at this point I'll let the 30x rule govern my advancement through the tables, and I'll try to learn when not to play.

Originally Posted by Bezique

It's a real trick being honest with yourself I find.

Heh... even in play money tables, I have had trouble being honest w/ myself. This will probably be one of my biggest challenges in playing poker well.

yeaaa 2 buyin NL tables are at paradise... not saying they're the easiest to beat because paradise is a tough site... but i used to play there and won constantly.

Originally Posted by forkmantis

* I must have 30x buy-in for any ring game I enter
* If I double up, I will leave the room, and take a break before playing again.
* If I lose my buy-in, I'll quit for the day.

do you remove that stick from your trousers before going to sleep at night ?!?!?! yowzah's thats conservative, Bill O'Reilly would be so proud.


seriously

you need around 15 to 20 for your ring game....
if you double up, keep playing, see if you can do it again.. never leave a game you are destroying

and uhh if you lose your buyin, figure out what happened, if it was dumb luck by a suckout fish, rebuy and keep playing... if you suck, then reevaluate your skills and come back to it

Originally Posted by Element187

do you remove that stick from your trousers before going to sleep at night ?!?!?!

Yeah.... I tried sleeping with it in for a while, but finally decided it was OK to take it out at night.

Seriously, though, I think I've been sufficiently convinced that I need to relax a bit and just start playing. I'm still waiting on "allowance" day, which will be in about 15 more days...

I played a freeroll the other night just for the heck of it. I came in 290 out of 2000.

I think I've been sufficiently convinced that I need to relax a bit and just start playing.

Right on. Just stick a little $$ and give it a shot. There's plenty of people here that have started with $50 and amassed huge bankrolls. Bankroll rules go out the window for micro limits IMO.

I think forkmantis idea about quitting for a while if he doubles up is interesting and with merit for a beginner. I started playing in December and found myself in the first game I played going from £20 to £60 within an hour. This made me over confident and I played on, watching my stack slowly dropping away to about £30 before I decided to quit while I was still ahead.

But this leads me to my main question which may sound counterintuitive at first, but as a beginner I would appreciate some advice - if you should only risk LOSING 10% of your bankroll in one day, should you set a limit on how much you risk WINNING in a day i.e. at what point do you say "That's enough for me today!" - is it when you start to go down from what you perceive was your maximum win?

You should quit when you stop playing winning poker, where winning poker is making the right decisions regardless of the actual results of individual hands.

When you are playing winning poker, but losing money, stop when you get to a point where the losses will cause you to stop playing winning poker.

When you are playing winning poker, and winning money, there is no real reason to stop (barring the wife dragging you off for some intimacy).

Originally Posted by future_proof

I think forkmantis idea about quitting for a while if he doubles up is interesting and with merit for a beginner. I started playing in December and found myself in the first game I played going from £20 to £60 within an hour. This made me over confident and I played on, watching my stack slowly dropping away to about £30 before I decided to quit while I was still ahead.

But this leads me to my main question which may sound counterintuitive at first, but as a beginner I would appreciate some advice - if you should only risk LOSING 10% of your bankroll in one day, should you set a limit on how much you risk WINNING in a day i.e. at what point do you say "That's enough for me today!" - is it when you start to go down from what you perceive was your maximum win?

You're going to have ups and downs at the table. It's great to leave the table up, but I don't know if there's a rule. If you have someone at the table willing to give you money repeatedly, you may have to stay and take it all . Even so, you'll go up and down during that one sitting, and it'd be a shame to leave. But if the table personnel changes significantly, perhaps (as a newby) you can switch tables and bank your winnings or quit for the evening. I don't know, really. But it makes me think, why would you (or I) want to only quit after your luck turns south? I think you are already on a decent approach, and I'm just blathering.

Just thinking a bit more about the right time to quit for the day:

what might be a useful exercise for us beginners would be for the experienced players to write a log showing how much they started with on a given day (in a ring game especially), what the stakes were, how long they played for, what they left the game with, and what was the highest/lowest amount they had during that given session.

I'll give an example from my own play last night:

Entered a $0.50/$1.00 game with $40, played for 1hr, left with $41, highest amount reached was $60, lowest was $35. I left that particular game as I realised I was getting tired - and when a guy who makes a lot of money multitabling at this level entered the game (I'm just not ready to face that level of competition without watching and learning how he plays for a while).

Hope this encourages a few responses!

Originally Posted by future_proof

Just thinking a bit more about the right time to quit for the day

After having time to think, and spending a little time playing some real-money online poker, I would very much agree that the best rule to follow on when to quit playing poker is when you are no longer playing winning poker.

The rules I proposed for myself were written when I had zero experience playing poker for real money (online or in meatspace), and at a time when my wife and I were facing a much less forgiving financial situation than we are today. The rule about leaving when I doubled up had two intentions. The first was to give me a clear goal to shoot for each time I sat down at a table. The second was to keep me from having to trust myself to be honest about wether or not it was time to quit. I wanted to remove "thinking and feeling" from the equation, because I didn't trust myself to be objective and honest.

Fortunately, much of the financial stress we've been having has been removed, and I am in a much better position to put some of my hard-earned money at risk. That, combined with the fact that I now have 2-3 weeks of real money experience under my belt has given me the confidence to trust myself as to when I need to quit.

These days I'll quit playing for a variety of reasons. To spend time with my wife. Because I'm tired. When I've been grinding away for hours making no progress, and I start thinking of playing hands that I shouldn't just to break the monotony. Because I'm losing and getting upset. Basically if I start thinking about something else more than poker, or if I'm battling the urge to play things I would normally not do because I think it's about time for me to get "lucky", then it's time for me to quit.

If I may interject...

If you're gonna start small ($50), play the .10/.25 tables. Really, anything less than that is basically just like play money -- and IMO, that's not real world experience.

If you wanna make money, it's an investment. It will take awhile to get up to the next level.

It's all about consistency. Stick with your strategy. Don't let emotions get in the way. Just react.

Basically, just like trading...

Originally Posted by sisqo

If I may interject...

If you're gonna start small ($50), play the .10/.25 tables. Really, anything less than that is basically just like play money -- and IMO, that's not real world experience.

You aren't playing .01/.02 to make money. You are playing it to gain experience. Then once you get good at playing poker to turn a profit at .01/.02 you can move up.

That way, when you play the .10/.25 you know you won't do anything silly to lose it all in 1 session.

Originally Posted by Humphrind

Originally Posted by sisqo

If I may interject...

If you're gonna start small ($50), play the .10/.25 tables. Really, anything less than that is basically just like play money -- and IMO, that's not real world experience.

You aren't playing .01/.02 to make money. You are playing it to gain experience. Then once you get good at playing poker to turn a profit at .01/.02 you can move up.

That way, when you play the .10/.25 you know you won't do anything silly to lose it all in 1 session.

Another point being: If .1/.25 is small, you should probably be able to put together more than 50 bucks for your deposit. And the more you deposit, the more you make in initial deposit bonuses.

-'rilla