Bad Play or Bad Luck?

i didn't sve the hand so i'm gonna write by memory.

full ring game
Hero is on the button Ac 2D

UTG
calls .25
UTG +1, +2 fold
UTG + 3 call .25
everyone before me folds
Hero raises 1.25
UTG calls
UTG + 3 calls
Flop
As 2h 9d
UTG bets 2$
UTG + 3 raises to 8$ total
Hero raises all in 24.55

UTG folds, UTG + 3 calls




Result
UTG + 3
2 pair Aces and 9
Hero 2 pair
Aces and 2

I feel like I should have played differently post flop but I'm not sure. Can you guys help me?

What do you know about them. Against most players you got a little unlucky. I think Id be cautious with a bet and a raise. Maybe just call and see what the first guy does??

If theyre both fairly tight players then maybe you could have got away.

Also if you want to ask a question like this in future its way better to post the hand up to when its your turn to act and then ask what to do next without showing results. Posting results massivly skews the answers you will get.

well the UTG + 2 was playing 34.5% of the flops, i had exceptionnally good cards (I had AK 5 times 3 of them suited as well as AQ AJ JJ QQ previously) so my average flop % was at roughy 35% as well.

UTG was fairly tight and always limped his PP's from what I saw (we played roughly 90-100 hands each at the time of the play)

Fold PF.

I fold preflop. A2o is NOT a hand you wanna be making button moves after limpers with.

hey thanks for the replies guys

OK, first of all, i would like to say I will never play A2o on the button with callers, especially not from UTG, to keep myself out of trouble.

I do have a question still, Had you been in my position post flop. How would you have played that hand?

ya, be careful raising hands with reverse implied odds like A2o. It'll work out a ton better if u do that when u have reads.
like on this hand you don't know if it's a donk going nuts with any pair, or a nit raising only a set.

Anyways, here I would call the flop raise. you figure to be way ahead or way behind, but you have position, so you can see how he reacts on the turn.
If he comes out firing really confidentally like pot sized, I probably would fold.
Otherwise, I'll try to keep the pot small/medium, calling a smaller bet or checking behind.
2 pr is nice, but without reads and in full ring, it's not for sure a play-for-stacks hand.

hey thanks a ton for the feedback. I really appreciate it

Originally Posted by Vice_PK

hey thanks for the replies guys

OK, first of all, i would like to say I will never play A2o on the button with callers, especially not from UTG, to keep myself out of trouble.

I do have a question still, Had you been in my position post flop. How would you have played that hand?

maybe late, but yes i push here. its rare that i will play A2o with 2 limpers outside the blinds anyway. i say i would have received what i had coming to me here.

i wander off into my now tilted state saying...ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED!!
:P

I'm extremely LAG, and very aggressive with position in ring games, but I will never - ever - play A2o outside the blinds.

Way more trouble than its worth, as you found out.

Originally Posted by handsomestan

I'm extremely LAG, and very aggressive with position in ring games, but I will never - ever - play A2o outside the blinds.

Way more trouble than its worth, as you found out.

thats just crazy. I'm open raising A2 from the button and 1 off every time I can. That said, i definetly fold it here preflop, post flop its not a big enough pot for me to worry about right here so i fold it without a read telling me not to. If my read tells me not to fold it its probably because the bettor is hyper aggressive and i'm just letting her bet it for me all the way down so I'm going call/miniraise/value bet as my line in that situation.

Originally Posted by melinda27

Originally Posted by handsomestan

I'm extremely LAG, and very aggressive with position in ring games, but I will never - ever - play A2o outside the blinds.

Way more trouble than its worth, as you found out.

thats just crazy. I'm open raising A2 from the button and 1 off every time I can. That said, i definetly fold it here preflop, post flop its not a big enough pot for me to worry about right here so i fold it without a read telling me not to. If my read tells me not to fold it its probably because the bettor is hyper aggressive and i'm just letting her bet it for me all the way down so I'm going call/miniraise/value bet as my line in that situation.

Are you kidding me ? please wrap head in cellophane and go night night. The A2o raise is ok occasionaly from the button to mix up your play. (hardly ever though) no respectable player would recommend this play to someone without a decent amount of experience. It's pointless. Your not in a tournament, just wait.

After the flop to the raise I would probably ??? You raised preflop and yet they are still betting and raising into you, showing a serious lack of worry. It's either trips or more likely A9 .... Then again an AJ AQ might raise here...... I see big fluffy fold clouds floating in my vision. The problem was being in the hand to begin with

I could definitely see AJ/AQ doing a flop c/r here, but then I see them folding to the push.

And raising A2o OTB isn't even a crazy move at all imo.
If I knew the limper/blinds were weak I would very often raise here, and I'm not even really lag. It's just abusing position and weak opps who give away blinds and small pots.
And they will donk away into a medium pot with AJ on this board too.

Yes precisely. Combine mine and Benny's posts and you'll have a winning formula for hand 3 should it arise in the future.

Originally Posted by melinda27

Originally Posted by handsomestan

I'm extremely LAG, and very aggressive with position in ring games, but I will never - ever - play A2o outside the blinds.

Way more trouble than its worth, as you found out.

thats just crazy. I'm open raising A2 from the button and 1 off every time I can.

I much prefer raising 45s from that position to raising A2o. Anyone with me, or am I talking crap?

Lol, I get it guys,

I shouldnt have played with 2 limpers. And i understand that if i am to raise with that hand it's only to blinds. To weak opponents. My problem with that hand is that i got involved in the first place and postflop I didn't necessarily make a very bad decision, but should definitely have been more careful. It's just that the dude called my raise with A9o. I figured, noone in their right mind would call with a90 in that situation.

Lol

I really appreciate this feedback guys. Aint no way I would play this hand like that again.

Originally Posted by Ash256

Originally Posted by melinda27

Originally Posted by handsomestan

I'm extremely LAG, and very aggressive with position in ring games, but I will never - ever - play A2o outside the blinds.

Way more trouble than its worth, as you found out.

thats just crazy. I'm open raising A2 from the button and 1 off every time I can.

I much prefer raising 45s from that position to raising A2o. Anyone with me, or am I talking crap?

I agree but its kind of irrelevent. Id rather raise 45s than A2o here. Id also rather raise AA. Since I didnt have 45s or AA neither of these matter. As it happened OP had A2o and an occasional button raise here (if the limpers are weak-tight) is fine IMO.

IMO everyone who says they arent open raising A2 from the button are giving up way too much value from that position (if you know why you are raising it) if you dont know why you are raising it then dont do it obviously. That goes for every hand though, if you dont know why you're playing it dont play it. I'm open raising everything from the button, sometimes i might hesitate to open raise 72 offsuit but in the end i know it has to be done. Unless I run into a really strong blind player but when I play NL i only play at the 2/4 level and the players there are never that strong, and far too weak post flop if they do play back at me preflop to justify giving up my button money.

Originally Posted by benny999

I could definitely see AJ/AQ doing a flop c/r here, but then I see them folding to the push.

And raising A2o OTB isn't even a crazy move at all imo.
If I knew the limper/blinds were weak I would very often raise here, and I'm not even really lag. It's just abusing position and weak opps who give away blinds and small pots.
And they will donk away into a medium pot with AJ on this board too.

that may be true, but how often do you hit the 2 to be aggressive post flop? what do you do when the flop comes A 6 Q? or A 4 T w/ 2 of a suit? the latter are much more common. when i play AJ oop, i will donk bet your 2 pair, and adjust when you play back, but if you have A2 against these flops, you cant play back at my AJ. i have no way to know when you hit your Aces up, but AJ wins TPGK way more than A2 wins with TPNK.

do you hit 2 pair and/or steal the blinds often enough to make this profitable? if you fire away into the flop examples i mentioned, and get called, you would have to steal the blinds around 10 times to make up your lost ground, wouldnt you?

somebody also mentioned that this "is not a tournament." this is one of the problems with TV, imo (not that its a bad thing, i thank the TV for the fish). people watch the "blind steals" on TV, and try to take it to a cash game. while i agree blinds are somewhat important to steal, you simply need a decent starting hand to do it. the blinds alone are just not big enough to justify the risk, except in the most passive of games. when you raise with A2, you are asking for A4 to defend his blind and dominate you. is that really worth a quarter/half dollar/sawbuck?

imo, it costs you more to try and steal, and get called, than you make off the blinds. A8 or A9, now thats worth the steal, but A2 is dominated by any A, which most blinds call opening raises with, and is a big loser except for the times you hit the 2, too. just my 2 cents.

i make a new DB at 150K hands so this one is only at 110K right now but my A2o filtered to chance to steal the blinds and raised "not a blind" is showing a .06 bb/hand profit.

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by benny999

I could definitely see AJ/AQ doing a flop c/r here, but then I see them folding to the push.

And raising A2o OTB isn't even a crazy move at all imo.
If I knew the limper/blinds were weak I would very often raise here, and I'm not even really lag. It's just abusing position and weak opps who give away blinds and small pots.
And they will donk away into a medium pot with AJ on this board too.

that may be true, but how often do you hit the 2 to be aggressive post flop? what do you do when the flop comes A 6 Q? or A 4 T w/ 2 of a suit? the latter are much more common. when i play AJ oop, i will donk bet your 2 pair, and adjust when you play back, but if you have A2 against these flops, you cant play back at my AJ. i have no way to know when you hit your Aces up, but AJ wins TPGK way more than A2 wins with TPNK.

do you hit 2 pair and/or steal the blinds often enough to make this profitable? if you fire away into the flop examples i mentioned, and get called, you would have to steal the blinds around 10 times to make up your lost ground, wouldnt you?

somebody also mentioned that this "is not a tournament." this is one of the problems with TV, imo (not that its a bad thing, i thank the TV for the fish). people watch the "blind steals" on TV, and try to take it to a cash game. while i agree blinds are somewhat important to steal, you simply need a decent starting hand to do it. the blinds alone are just not big enough to justify the risk, except in the most passive of games. when you raise with A2, you are asking for A4 to defend his blind and dominate you. is that really worth a quarter/half dollar/sawbuck?

imo, it costs you more to try and steal, and get called, than you make off the blinds. A8 or A9, now thats worth the steal, but A2 is dominated by any A, which most blinds call opening raises with, and is a big loser except for the times you hit the 2, too. just my 2 cents.

Have u read the "pokey's blind stealing" article before? I can't find a working link to it, but it started as a 2p2 post.
Anyways, blind stealing might look like it's not worth it, but over time it seriously adds up. When I last checked PT over around 30k hands, stealing blinds added at least 1-2ptbb/100 to my overall winrate (was 90ptbb/100 for those hands). And it doesn't account for side affects like tilting other players and creating an image.

As far as hitting A2 for only one pair, I definitely won't lose much on it post flop, especially with position. I pretty much treat it like KK on an ace high flop.

overall it mostly depends how weak/tight the blinds are...not the cards u raise with.

Originally Posted by benny999

Have u read the "pokey's blind stealing" article before? I can't find a working link to it, but it started as a 2p2 post.

Its in my favorites

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=0&page=1&vc=1

FWIW i think alot of the value of button raising a hand like this is when you occasionally show down a 2 pair AND THEN get action on your AA/KK.

i gotta say that was one helluva post. thanks.

i may try that more, but i dont consider blinds completely useless. i always figure they are a .25 BB boost to my session everytime i get them, but CLEARLY i dont do it enough.

i havent looked, but would guess i am around a 15% stealer.

i just checked and i am surprisingly a 21% stealer. apparently, i respect the value of blinds more than i thought...lol.

I'm a 43% stealer. I still think A-2 is shitty lol.

You guys are right - it's a sufficient hand to steal with, but you certainly don't want action with it.

Originally Posted by handsomestan

I'm a 43% stealer. I still think A-2 is shitty lol.

You guys are right - it's a sufficient hand to steal with, but you certainly don't want action with it.

not unless you hit 2 pair. Then you have to do a bit of hand reading to figure out if youre good. sometimes it doesnt work out.