Arrrrrgg!

I sure envy you people who started poker and made money right away. I have played the last 4 days at pokerstars (micros) and lost every session. That is after studying this site for weeks and studying Skalanskys advanced poker book. I thought for sure I would be able to at least break even.

I play for a few hrs and do ok…sometimes up, sometimes down. Then, I make a bad call when the pot gets big and loose my buyin…(where I end the day). I have never been good at thinking on my feet and I tend to freeze up when the pot gets big. That’s when I do stupid stuff like calling his all-in when I KNOW I am beat. The first time it happened I had a nice hand and failed to notice the straight possibility that showed on the river. The next time, I had KK and put him on Ax. For some reason I called his all-in ignoring the A on the board…I can’t explain it. Then last night, I bet the river big with a pair of As. He re-raised me all-in and I felt it likely he had two pair. I called him anyway!!!! Why can’t I back down?

My game improves every day because I study every hand I play afterwards but if I can’t fix this all-in thing I am doomed. My heart starts pounding and my brain freezes up. <shrug>

Anyway, my question is: Did any of you start out sucking or did it come easily to you. I am beginning to wonder if I can actually make money at poker of if I am doomed to be a fish forever.

I think most people(though not everyone) started out sucking. Personally I went down about $400 before turning it around. It's mostly a matter of how much time/effort you want to put into it. Read this site and others, buy some of the recommended books, study your hand histories, play different games and figure out what you like and are best at. Maybe limit is more your style if you're having trouble resisting an AI bet. But at any game/level one of the hardest things to learn is when to lay down a good hand. The more you play, the easier it should become. Most importantly, stay within your bankroll while you're learning. As you know, PokerStars has microlimits so I would stick to that for now if you're not already.

If you stay with it and continue improving, you should eventually get to the positive territory.

Thank you for the reply.

After reviewing the HH from last night I don’t feel so bad. I mean, I definitely should have folded but if Tommy42366 wasn’t there I would have paid off the other guy with the set anyway.

PokerStars Game #1988009923: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2005/06/28 - 00:00:30 (ET)
Table 'Pandarus II' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Hero ($2.85 in chips)
Seat 2: mez81 ($3.35 in chips)
Seat 3: Tommy42366 ($3.48 in chips)
Seat 4: CWellman ($2.22 in chips)
Seat 6: Alexmc2 ($0.90 in chips)
Seat 7: greenspit ($4.97 in chips)
Seat 8: vhilt17 ($5.40 in chips)
Seat 9: Phlunky ($1.86 in chips)
vhilt17: posts small blind $0.01
Phlunky: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Qs Ah]
Hero: raises $0.13 to $0.15
mez81: folds
Tommy42366: calls $0.15
CWellman: calls $0.15
Alexmc2: calls $0.15
greenspit: folds
vhilt17: folds
Phlunky: calls $0.13
*** FLOP *** [Ad 7c Jh]
Phlunky: checks
Hero: bets $0.30
Tommy42366: raises $1.70 to $2
CWellman: folds
Alexmc2: calls $0.75 and is all-in
Phlunky: folds
Hero: calls $1.70
*** TURN *** [Ad 7c Jh] [2c]
Hero: checks
Tommy42366: bets $1.33 and is all-in
Hero: calls $0.70 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Ad 7c Jh 2c] [4c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero: shows [Qs Ah] (a pair of Aces)
Tommy42366: shows [As 7d] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
Tommy42366 collected $3.75 from side pot
Alexmc2: shows [7h 7s] (three of a kind, Sevens)
Alexmc2 collected $2.86 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.91 Main pot $2.86. Side pot $3.75. | Rake $0.30
Board [Ad 7c Jh 2c 4c]
Seat 1: Hero showed [Qs Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: mez81 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Tommy42366 showed [As 7d] and won ($3.75) with two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 4: CWellman folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Alexmc2 showed [7h 7s] and won ($2.86) with three of a kind, Sevens
Seat 7: greenspit (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: vhilt17 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Phlunky (big blind) folded on the Flop

Tommy42366’s bet said two pair but I couldn’t imagine him having AJ. What I failed to notice is that there was another caller also. If I had noticed that (and if I were thinking clearly) then I should fold there.
I am going to try NL one more time but I think Limit is a good option given that I go blind when the pot gets big.

I started out getting a free $10 on Royal Vegas and promptly blowing it all in about 3 hands, and this was, as you say, after spending ages to learn the game. I thought I was gonna be able to keep my head up and at least break even but it didn't happen.

I kinda realised why I blew my money so I went to a friends computer and signed up again and this time I seem to be doing OK, I've worked my $10 up to $40.

Heres a few things I think you should try:

1) Play some play money poker. This ain't good for much but It'll help you realise when there's straights on the board and you'll miss them less. Also I think that a lot of the lower limits players do play with similar traits to the play money opponents. Especially when you get $10 free for signing up, a lot of players come in and go all-in with crap.

2) Play tight and passive. I know when you read this sight you get the idea that loose aggressive play is the only way (at least I did anyway) but I rekon its the wrong approach against low limt messers. You can't bet them off draws and re-raise them out of pots because they won't respect you when they dont realise what your doing.

3) Don't trust top pair, even if it does mean folding the first AA you got dealt in 300 hands. A lot of the time you do need the best hand because you'll have 4 idiots passivly calling you down to a showdown.

4) I think its useless tryin to get reads on players who play every hand regardless, go all in every fifth hand and call pot size bets on a gutshot. I don't bother but I'm practicin with a few of the regular players on the site.

The first couple of nights I tried playing LAgg, like you. I was bleeding money slowly. Last night I tightened up in EP and MP but stayed loose in LP. It seemed to work fairly well.

The most that can be said about micros is that they are erratic. Sometimes a 15 cent bet preflop will cause folds all around and other times you get 6 callers. It’s hard to predict. Also you get a new player about every 5 mins which makes getting reads interesting. One thing that is clear is that they are weak. One can fold them out on late streets easy. Once I get better I’ll start taking more advantage of that.

The only thing I disagree with is that play money poker helps. Yes, you can learn to spot straight/flushes and train yourself to try and read players and put them on a hand. But…these things come so much faster when it is real money bleeding from your pockets. Hehe.

Last night I kept notes on each player and it did help some. It is hard to keep track with new players all the time but it helps some.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

1) Play some play money poker. This ain't good for much but It'll help you realise when there's straights on the board and you'll miss them less. Also I think that a lot of the lower limits players do play with similar traits to the play money opponents. Especially when you get $10 free for signing up, a lot of players come in and go all-in with crap..

I would advise against this. You can play microlimits without losing that much, and playmoney will probably even hurt your game. If you want to use play money to get used to a new site, that's fine, but that's about it.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

2) Play tight and passive. I know when you read this sight you get the idea that loose aggressive play is the only way (at least I did anyway) but I rekon its the wrong approach against low limt messers. You can't bet them off draws and re-raise them out of pots because they won't respect you when they dont realise what your doing..

I think Tight/Aggressive is the style most here would advocate. There are plenty of Loose/Aggeressive HH's all over the boards, and you can play that way succesfully but it takes more experience and talent.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

4) I think its useless tryin to get reads on players who play every hand regardless, go all in every fifth hand and call pot size bets on a gutshot. I don't bother but I'm practicin with a few of the regular players on the site.

What you've just described is a read, probably a loose/aggressive and/or a maniac. The more you play the more your reading ability will improve. You want opponents who will call with bad pot odds like Mr Gutshot.


I haven't played much microlimit, and I play more SNG then ring, but isn't 7.5xBB a bit excessive for AQ UTG? On the flop, after you bet and get a re-raise and call, you should probably lay it down as you mentioned.

You might pick up one of the recommended limit books, it's definitely a different animal then NL.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I haven't played much microlimit, and I play more SNG then ring, but isn't 7.5xBB a bit excessive for AQ UTG? On the flop, after you bet and get a re-raise and call, you should probably lay it down as you mentioned.

The theorys of 3xBB and 5xBB, etc don't hold up in micros. Think about it, if you had never read up on poker would you see 15 cents as 7.5xBB or would you see it as only 15 cents. At these limits people only see the money and 15 cents is, after all, only 15 cents. hehe.

sounds like to me you need to take your time before you make a decision. you have 30+ seconds to make a choice, use every one of them wisely. and DO NOT play play money...it is pointless, if you cant afford to lose some at the micro limits in exchange for experience and learning then you cant afford to be playing period.

and why are you reading sklansky's advanced hold em book? that book is based on limit isnt it? read supersystem 2 cover to cover

Originally Posted by bair

sounds like to me you need to take your time before you make a decision. you have 30+ seconds to make a choice, use every one of them wisely. and DO NOT play play money...it is pointless, if you cant afford to lose some at the micro limits in exchange for experience and learning then you cant afford to be playing period.

and why are you reading sklansky's advanced hold em book? that book is based on limit isnt it? read supersystem 2 cover to cover

*Jots down supersystem 2*
Got it. That will be the next book I read.

I have had the same problems as you describe when I play NL. I'll play well until I have the 2nd best hand and then lose my buyin. My suggestion is get your feet wet playing Sit-n-Gos and other tourneys. This limits your risk, gets you the experience and you can build a BR with it. If you play in a $2 MTT for 3 hours and don't get in the money you still got to see a couple hundred hands/scenarios for $2.

i find loose/passive to be the best way to play microlimits. limp alot and play anything suited and get idiots to go all in with marginal hands like TPTK against your set

I started off going $300, $400 in the hole before I started turning things around. Heck, I played poker so loose to start off with. Man, even after I started "righting the ship", I still had to get lucky a bit. I remember, until I moved to PP, I had not bluffed...not once. No position bluffs, no nothing. It worked, but I'm not sure that was so much a strategy thing as much as a getting lucky and having the hands that I did play get paid off type of thing.

But chin up, soldier. If you are dedicated to learning poker, it will come to you. You'll hit that inevitable GIGANTIC downswing, and...it...will...HURT...but hopefully if you can get past that, everything will be ok.

I do think that the merits of PLAYING far exceed the merits of reading books, but to each his own. FTR I think is a lot better than any book out there, and it's free, so if you're going to read, read the threads on FTR, but yeah. Have fun and good luck at the tables...just try not to use it against me. :P

Thanks for the encouragement. I did better last night. I actually showed a profit of about $2 after 3-4 hrs a play. Notably, I resisted a couple of all-ins even when I had decent money in the pot and I was able to do a couple of all-ins and win. One time I would have folded but after calculating the pot odds I was getting to call his all-in, I called and won. Maybe I am over the hump, maybe not. Time will tell, but I’ll keep at it.

Q. Is there a hand converter I can download and use on my computer before posting hands?

Originally Posted by Fleece

i find loose/passive to be the best way to play microlimits. limp alot and play anything suited and get idiots to go all in with marginal hands like TPTK against your set

I tried that but my suited connectors are not hitting the straight/flush very often. I think never so far. hehe. Besides, I don't have the dicipline yet to be able to throw them away when I hit one or two pair. If you play these low cards out for pairs you loose a lot. I still play loose from LP so I am practicing with these.