Am I playing KK wrong?

I just can't believe how much money I've lost with KK these past few days. I hope I'm doing something wrong though so I may correct it.

Here are some hands...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



CO ($6.07)
Button ($7.35)
SB ($2)
BB ($5.38)
UTG ($6.68)
UTG+1 ($2.83)
MP1 ($4.95)
MP2 ($3.10)
Hero (MP3) ($5.71)



Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K, K
UTG calls $0.05, 3 folds, Hero bets $0.20, 1 fold, Button calls $0.20, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.67) 9, 6, 2 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.35, Button raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5.51 (All-In), Button calls $4.51

Turn: ($11.69) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($11.69) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $11.69 | Rake: $0.55

Results in white below:
Button had 6, 6 (three of a kind, sixes).
Hero had K, K (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: Button won $11.14


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



Button ($10.27)
SB ($5.73)
BB ($7.42)
UTG ($2.93)
UTG+1 ($8.25)
MP1 ($3.23)
MP2 ($4.80)
Hero (CO) ($5.13)



Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.20, Button raises to $0.60, 3 folds, Hero raises to $5.13 (All-In), Button calls $4.53

Flop: ($10.38) 3, Q, 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($10.38) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.38) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.38 | Rake: $0.50

Results in white below:
Button had A, A (two pair, Aces and Queens).
Hero had K, K (two pair, Kings and Queens).
Outcome: Button won $9.88


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



UTG ($4.79)
MP1 ($5.95)
MP2 ($12.87)
CO ($2.97)
Button ($7.36)
SB ($5.27)
Hero (BB) ($5.01)



Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.05, 2 folds, Button bets $0.20, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.80, 1 fold, Button calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.67) K, 7, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.60, Button raises to $5.25, Hero calls $2.61 (All-In)

Turn: ($10.09) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.09) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.09 | Rake: $0.50

Results in white below:
Button had K, A (flush, Ace high).
Hero had K, K (flush, King high).
Outcome: Button won $9.59


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



CO ($4.95)
Button ($10)
Hero (SB) ($5)
BB ($7.25)
UTG ($6.19)
MP ($11.01)



Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, CO checks, Button bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.05, 4 folds, Button raises to $2.99, Hero raises to $5 (All-In), Button calls $2.01

Flop: ($10.15) 10, 7, 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($10.15) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.15) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.15 | Rake: $0.50

Results in white below:
Button had A, A (one pair, Aces).
Hero had K, K (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: Button won $9.72


I would show you the other times I ran into AA with my KK in the past 2 days but I'm not here to whine, just to get feedback...well, maybe I'm here to whine a bit too.

hand 1: a raise on the flop from someone in position on a board like this is borderline ACCEPTABLE news. not great news. don't treat your hand like the nuts. you can call this street and check the next one, and likely fold to a bet. the only hand you beat that takes this line is a bluff and a bluff A) doesn't call your all in so you lose value B) checks most turns, so you know you're beat if they bet the turn

hand 2: i don't like the overpush. only hands that beat you call here (i know there are phantom hands that call here but not enough to make this the most profitable play). a raise to 2 dollars is probably better (you're still probably getting stacked here because you have to call his all in that will inevitably follow without a super read, but at least you're getting better value against hands like AK, JJ and so forth).

hand 3: i'm clueless when it comes to monotone flops so i look forward to reading responses. maybe check call for pot control and pray for a paired board/ for another club to not come? sucks you're OOP

hand 4: i think there are two schools of thought on this one, but i personally don't fold KK preflop so nothing wrong here. just one of those things

I think I've looked at them carefully and I know I could only "possibly" get away from hand one. Well no, I shove too...
Dont even try to discuss the hand where he hit his flush on the turn, you got your money in with the best hand on the flop. you cant fold that.
The AA vs KK hands...what are you gonna do....its not often you run into this so how can you assume that your running into the .5% of the time hes got you crushed and you hold KK?

I cant see how you get away on these AA vs KK hands.

Do you see (in any of these) any better way you could have played it? IMO there wasn't a lot of ways out of these hands that doesn't change the way you play KK in general (except hand 2).

Hand 1- This is why we play for sets.... it just sucks being on the other end.
Hand 2-Massive overbet. Why?
Hand 3- Cooler. Really sucks.
Hand 4- Cooler. Really sucks.



Don't look at the results of 4 hands Arcadian. If you have PT3 or HEM, look up all of you KK hands and see if they are played much different than these. Tough breaks on this set of hands.

hand 1 - just call the flop, but you might have to get all in anyway
hand 2 - only do the overbet shove with kings if you've already done it before so it looks like it's your standard 4b size
otherwise it's a cooler
hand 3 - bad beats are bad (this is not a cooler, but a bad beat)
hand 4 - coolers are cool (this IS a cooler)

Originally Posted by iopq

hand 3 - bad beats are bad (this is not a cooler, but a bad beat)

ok ok, true....But I still say that TPTK with nut flush draw vs set on this board is somewhat a cooler since the money went in on the flop.

You're shoving too often with them I think. Granted the last two you really could do nothing about but the 1st 2 are overbets. You can get the same information without risking your whole buy in imo.

DONT POST RESULTS

1:
raise to 25c PF
bet more on the flop. It's very draw heavy and 3-way. You want to protect your hand... And what hands are there anyway that will call your bet and fold to a 5/6 psb?
Needs very low raise-flop stats over a big enough sample to get away.

2:
wat?

3:
I bet a little less on the flop, but what's the question?

4:
wat?

haha thats just hella sucks bro for real that happens dont think your playing them wrong. Thats poker sir just bad runs your playing them okay the whole u can risk it without your buyin comment is ehh. Because if u play these hands 100 times u doing this u will win most the time. Because the money is going to get in either way

ArcadianRock: Refrain from posting results in the future.

Hand #3: I get really scared when a 1-tone flop hits. Even with only one opponent left in the hand, as soon as another club hits I'm looking for the exit. (Thinking out loud here) I guess a made hand could represent a higher flush by shoving in a situation like this. It's just too bad he had the nuts.

Our 2/3 -3/4 pot-sized bets should normally price out most draws but could a shove here on the flop be the best move? I'm pretty sure I would have folded AA (except the club) with an AI bet on that board.

I dont see a single read in the entire bunch of hands. Pointless thread.

Originally Posted by Dash

Hand #3: I get really scared when a 1-tone flop hits. Even with only one opponent left in the hand, as soon as another club hits I'm looking for the exit. (Thinking out loud here) I guess a made hand could represent a higher flush by shoving in a situation like this. It's just too bad he had the nuts.

Our 2/3 -3/4 pot-sized bets should normally price out most draws but could a shove here on the flop be the best move? I'm pretty sure I would have folded AA (except the club) with an AI bet on that board.

his intention wasn't to bluff here nor should it have been. we have equity here REGARDLESS of whether he has the nut flush or not. he's drawing to the unbeatable nuts (barring the one in a million that he has a set and hits his one-outter quad). explain to me why we're trying to push AA off the hand?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I dont see a single read in the entire bunch of hands. Pointless thread.

i really dont understand how reads mean soo much here.....he has KK pretty simple situations....... plz do explain cuzz u have me totally dumbfounded.

If this dumbfounds you, then you're used to playing level 0 poker and should really start thinking about developing reads and using them more.

Playing hands in a vacuum is bad unless you literally sat down and have no reads, in which case thats what you should post with the hands. If you have reads and dont post them, that makes any feedback pretty much worthless. If you have reads and didnt use them in making your decisions you're making a big mistake in big pots.

Why can't we post results? I hid them so you don't have to look at them if you don't want, plus it is kind of nice to see whether your guessing ranges are correct. Nothing worse than training yourself on ranges and you're wrong 90% of the time.

You're only posting hands you lost, so generally speaking you're going to be showing the top of villains range which is irrelevant to their full range.

Up to you, but you're just inviting responses influenced by results rather than based onlyl on the information you had at the time. Generally speaking I wont post any of the hand beyond the decision point.

Originally Posted by T-Rex

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I dont see a single read in the entire bunch of hands. Pointless thread.

i really dont understand how reads mean soo much here.....he has KK pretty simple situations....... plz do explain cuzz u have me totally dumbfounded.

Let me give you an example. Take hand 1 from the OP. Reads/notes that might be relevant:


- Only seen him raise 2P or better
- Calls PF with AX and Stacks off with weak TPTK hands
- Raises any draws on the flop
- bluff raises flops unlikely to hit our range, continues on turn.

Four pretty simple reads or notes that could drastically change how we play the hand.

Hand 1 - check behind flop.. He has a set here 100% of the time. Fold to the first sign of aggression.

Hand 2 - KK < AA obv. Either learn to fold to 3bets, or just don't open KK at all.

Hand 3 - Meh.. I don't think you played this hand terribly. However, I would be tempted to fold when he shoves the flop because he likely has a club and they always hit.

Hand 4 - Why are you 3betting here... He has AA like everytime when he opens in this spot. Call and sethunt dummy.

Thought for the day: KK is a shitty hand really. If you notice the frequency with which you get KK all in preflop and lose to AA is multitudes higher than the frequency with which 72o loses to AA ai-preflop.

Selective memory. Listen to the posters in this thread that know what they are talking about. You are wrong about posting results. Don't worry about them, you should have an indication on what they'll have in most spots.

ya kings get me in lots of tough positions, especially whenever i gets kings sum1 else has pocket aces, happens to me a couple of times. not many ways to get out of the pocket aces if the flop looks good for you, but just dont overbet and dont think you have the best hand and go all in unless you have the nuts.

Lets get some super simple maths out of the way first:

For every time we get KK v's someones AA, we'll get AA v's someones KK. Thats a 0EV situation and we shouldnt worry about it, its pretty much irrelevant as long as we're using proper BRM.

Next, refusing to get ai with KK unless we have the nuts would be an enormous mistake as a general rule to follow. Sure we should fold sometimes, but for a reason other than "we dont have the nuts".

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

because he likely has a club and they always hit.

When Stacks gets high, he enjoys misquoting Sklansky to confuse the BC. LOL

Originally Posted by surviva316

his intention wasn't to bluff here nor should it have been. we have equity here REGARDLESS of whether he has the nut flush or not. he's drawing to the unbeatable nuts (barring the one in a million that he has a set and hits his one-outter quad). explain to me why we're trying to push AA off the hand?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Obviously nobody with AA (one of them the nut flush) is going to get pushed off, but this brings up an interesting point that's new to me: What line do we take in a case where we're almost certainly up against a flush and only pairing the board will save us?

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Hand 1 - check behind flop.. He has a set here 100% of the time. Fold to the first sign of aggression.

Hand 2 - KK < AA obv. Either learn to fold to 3bets, or just don't open KK at all.

Hand 3 - Meh.. I don't think you played this hand terribly. However, I would be tempted to fold when he shoves the flop because he likely has a club and they always hit.

Hand 4 - Why are you 3betting here... He has AA like everytime when he opens in this spot. Call and sethunt dummy.

Thought for the day: KK is a shitty hand really. If you notice the frequency with which you get KK all in preflop and lose to AA is multitudes higher than the frequency with which 72o loses to AA ai-preflop.

nice hand

I see all cash games no tourny play. I raise 4 times the blind with KK as it looks like you do. However, in a cash game if I get reraised I like to call then if no A falls bet hard, otherwise if the A falls chek and if I get a bet I raise some and if I get reraised then fold.
You seem to run into AA vs. KK alot. Just pure poker it sucks and nothing you can do.
Hand 1 I would have led out and folded to a reraise
Hand 2 Just call no reason for the overwhelming bet must have been on tilt
Hand 3 I bet 1/2 pot and then fold to a reraise just prior experience of playing low stakes tables you get called with suited anything from donks 24/7
Hand 4 What can you do lol not bad play just sucks they had the only other better hand preflop
GL with your game it happens.

Obviously nobody with AA (one of them the nut flush) is going to get pushed off, but this brings up an interesting point that's new to me: What line do we take in a case where we're almost certainly up against a flush and only pairing the board will save us?[/quote]

Well said, just a coin flip on sometimes calling and sometimes folding. Seems to me that it will depend on game and stack have the biggest influence to me in tournament play I fold almost every time, cash game hard to say what I do.

wtf stacks, lol

Alright, thanks everyone for their input, I'll make sure not to post any more results. You're right, we're not here to do results oriented play, just making correct decisions.

If your using PT or HEM then go back and look at ALL your KK hands. I bet your making money in the long run with them. If this is the case then don't worry about it. Think long term not "OMG look wat happen last 4 times!"

you should always play KK the same way so you're extremely exploitable, apparently

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

you should always play KK the same way so you're extremely exploitable, apparently

hush...

We know that's not true. Whether people stated that or not, they will understand that is absolutely ridiculous.

However, I wouldn't worry about being exploited at the microstakes, or the low stakes, or even midstakes for that matter.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

you should always play KK the same way so you're extremely exploitable, apparently

hush...

We know that's not true. Whether people stated that or not, they will understand that is absolutely ridiculous.

However, I wouldn't worry about being exploited at the microstakes, or the low stakes, or even midstakes for that matter.

lol i agree. not many people are really playing beyond level 1 in the first place so it makes playing an exploitable strategy profitable.

I like to try and maximize my EV though, so sometimes I'll do things that aren't super standard given the situation, but it will have a purpose of course

I still think even the most retarded people can manage to guess your exact hand sometimes though just based on the line taken if it's obvious enough.

Sure.. Sometimes your hand range is going to be pretty obvious. And to decent hand readers unless your taking -EV plays, then you likely can't avoid all the spots. However, it doesn't mean they are profitable exploiting you. Example:

Villain raises preflop, and I call with TT IP. Flop is J73tt. Villain cbets and I call. Turn is a blank, and villain checks. I don't really think betting this turn has much value, as I would expect villain to maybe two-barrel his flush draws, and I don't expect him to check/call too many worse hands. And I do beat the majority of villains hands at this time, so I decide to check behind. Sure my hand range has become pretty obvious now. I wouldn't have checked behind with any of my nut hands {sets, overpairs, TPTK, etc} and likely not many of my bluffs {floats}. So my hand in many cases is going to be a marginal made hand with showdown value. However, just because this is obvious, doesn't mean on the river I'm going to be really getting exploited. Villain doesn't know if I"m folding those hands to a river bet, or calling. He doesn't know if there are other hands in my range, like draws, etc. Against me, in particular, villain should probably be betting this river with a very high frequency, because I tend to fold to a river bet here because it seems it's usually for value. However, the majority of villains aren't betting with the appropriate frequency, and therefore my weak range that I tend to fold here, isn't being exploited all that much, if at all. Also, if we notice that villain is trying to exploit us and is betting the river here with a very high frequency, we only need to make a small adjustment and we are now re-exploiting him. That adjustment is obviously to begin calling more.

Anyways, just my thoughts. Also, I think the turn decision could be up for some debate also. Betting has a fair amount of merit to it also, and may even be best.

Something I've come to realise after...months and months of losing value. Sometimes it doesnt matter if your hand is apparently faceup. People call anyway.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Sure.. Sometimes your hand range is going to be pretty obvious. And to decent hand readers unless your taking -EV plays, then you likely can't avoid all the spots. However, it doesn't mean they are profitable exploiting you. Example:

Villain raises preflop, and I call with TT IP. Flop is J73tt. Villain cbets and I call. Turn is a blank, and villain checks. I don't really think betting this turn has much value, as I would expect villain to maybe two-barrel his flush draws, and I don't expect him to check/call too many worse hands. And I do beat the majority of villains hands at this time, so I decide to check behind. Sure my hand range has become pretty obvious now. I wouldn't have checked behind with any of my nut hands {sets, overpairs, TPTK, etc} and likely not many of my bluffs {floats}. So my hand in many cases is going to be a marginal made hand with showdown value. However, just because this is obvious, doesn't mean on the river I'm going to be really getting exploited. Villain doesn't know if I"m folding those hands to a river bet, or calling. He doesn't know if there are other hands in my range, like draws, etc. Against me, in particular, villain should probably be betting this river with a very high frequency, because I tend to fold to a river bet here because it seems it's usually for value. However, the majority of villains aren't betting with the appropriate frequency, and therefore my weak range that I tend to fold here, isn't being exploited all that much, if at all. Also, if we notice that villain is trying to exploit us and is betting the river here with a very high frequency, we only need to make a small adjustment and we are now re-exploiting him. That adjustment is obviously to begin calling more.

Anyways, just my thoughts. Also, I think the turn decision could be up for some debate also. Betting has a fair amount of merit to it also, and may even be best.

I wouldn't say we're re-exploiting him, because if you expand your calling range, he's going to be expanding his value range on the river

it's not like "adjustment done I am exploiting him"
it's a constant battle to see who is exploiting whom

Well technically we are "re-exploiting" him (for the lack of a better term). At that point when we realize he is betting the river with a high frequency to take advantage of our "weak" range, and our tendency to fold in that spot, and to combat that we begin calling with a wider range, then we have made an adjustment to his new tendency. Obviously he can, and should, re-adjust and start betting a wider range for value, and stop bluffing as often; however, until he makes that adjustment we are now exploiting his tendency/frequency.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Well technically we are "re-exploiting" him (for the lack of a better term). At that point when we realize he is betting the river with a high frequency to take advantage of our "weak" range, and our tendency to fold in that spot, and to combat that we begin calling with a wider range, then we have made an adjustment to his new tendency. Obviously he can, and should, re-adjust and start betting a wider range for value, and stop bluffing as often; however, until he makes that adjustment we are now exploiting his tendency/frequency.

I just feel it as a more fluid process where you're adding hands with worse showdown value to your calling range on the river as you get more sure of his tendencies

Just because he bet the river once doesn't mean you should start calling him wide because he could of course have a hand
so after five hands where he bluffed the river / bet for value say three out of five and checked behind hands with showdown value twice you might say "hmm he's never checked air back yet" and start calling with a wider range
and when he sees you call with TT he's not sure if you've adjusted or if it's your standard play

so you both start slowly adding hands - he's adding hands to his value range while you add hands to your calling range