Am I an Idiot?

Loose agressive table, seem to be a lot of Northern European type players, if you know what I'm saying.

I've been tight and the few hands I've shown down I've won with good hands.

Too passive at the river?

Yeah, I know, I suck. Just wanna know about the river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) -

MP2 (t7225)
MP3 (t3000)
CO (t8645)
Hero (Button) (t6450)
SB (t2920)
BB (t3585)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t4910)
MP1 (t2520)

Hero's M: 43.00

Preflop: Hero is Button with ,
UTG calls t100, 3 folds, MP3 calls t100, CO calls t100, Hero calls t100, SB calls t50, BB checks

Flop: (t600) , , (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t600) (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets t200, 1 fold, MP3 calls t200, CO calls t200, Hero calls t200, 1 fold

River: (t1400) (4 players)
BB bets t500, MP3 calls t500, CO calls t500, Hero calls t500

Total pot: t3400

why would you ever fold the river as played?

I'm asking if I should raise.

To explain, I feel like I'm not value betting at the end with a lot of hands where I feel I'm ahead, but with a vulnerable hand like two pair or TPTK.

Usually it's heads up, this isn't the best example I guess 4 handed.

Did you have any reads, stats etc.? What range did you put them on? Pretty hard to get/give advice with no information!

MTT forum is that way bro -------->

As for the hand: hate pre, hate flop, hate turn, river sucks.

Yes. The river is probably the best played part of the hand tbqh, and that's not saying much

This is ugly.

Raise pre to something cute like 575. Fold to a 3bet.

Post-flop, who knows, I don't know how many people call my raise.

As played, there's value here on the river I think. I'd min raise to 1k. No-one's got a set ffs, nor A9, otherwise they get much more aggressive on this board. Two spades on flop. Anyone who has us beat is a fucking moron, simple as.

*edit - ok BB can have the one combo of 88 out there, that's all that's beating us imo

Originally Posted by OngBonga

This is ugly.

Raise pre to something cute like 575. Fold to a 3bet.

never raise pre, your not going to get many folds, and almost no better hand will fold. folding pre is fine, calling is fine, but minus well fold pre if your not going to bet TP when checked to. obviously you give the limpers a range with >A8 if your not betting flop so minus well fold pre if that's the case.

sure does look like a pretty loose aggressive table

I'm raising pre to thin the field and because I'm on the button. I don't really care what hands call or fold, I'm not playing my cards, I'm playing my position.

If I know everyone is just going to call, then yeah I won't raise this spot. We should know by now if the others are limp/folders or limp/callers.

I prefer to fold than limp. Joining the limp party seems bad to me, we're coming down to their level. Either take control of the pot or get out, that's my preference.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm raising pre to thin the field and because I'm on the button. I don't really care what hands call or fold, I'm not playing my cards, I'm playing my position.

If I know everyone is just going to call, then yeah I won't raise this spot. We should know by now if the others are limp/folders or limp/callers.

I prefer to fold than limp. Joining the limp party seems bad to me, we're coming down to their level. Either take control of the pot or get out, that's my preference.

It's not even about coming down to their level. You just end in a pot with 5 people who's ranges could be ATC. You end up not knowing what to do even when you flop top pair on a tt board like in this hand. Reverse implied odds can also run high.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm raising pre to thin the field and because I'm on the button. I don't really care what hands call or fold, I'm not playing my cards, I'm playing my position.

If I know everyone is just going to call, then yeah I won't raise this spot. We should know by now if the others are limp/folders or limp/callers.

I prefer to fold than limp. Joining the limp party seems bad to me, we're coming down to their level. Either take control of the pot or get out, that's my preference.

even if this wasen't near end of rebuy period. like tyrm said you have terrible reverse implied odds, if you raise standard 3xBB + 1 per limper, you will proabably still get some callers now your playing a big pot, with a mediocre hand, if you raise less then your going to get even more callers. obviously ranges are wider and results are irrelevant but UTG had AQ, how are you playing this hand where your not losing a high % of your stack? sinse you vbet pre i assume you bet TP on flop?

Originally Posted by fulksy

even if this wasen't near end of rebuy period. like tyrm said you have terrible reverse implied odds, if you raise standard 3xBB + 1 per limper, you will proabably still get some callers now your playing a big pot, with a mediocre hand, if you raise less then your going to get even more callers. obviously ranges are wider and results are irrelevant but UTG had AQ, how are you playing this hand where your not losing a high % of your stack? sinse you vbet pre i assume you bet TP on flop?

Yeah of course I bet flop if I raise pre. AQ then either calls or raises. If he raises, easy for me. If he calls, I can be pretty sure he has an ace at least (I raised pre, he's got to credit my c-bet), and I'm folding to next bet unless I improve. I'm not going to lose a high % of my stack with TPNK unless I've seen villian go mental with worse on more than one occasion, or unless I was short stacked in the first place, in which case I'd just shove pre.

I can't see that I'm losing more than 10bb very often, it's only a cooler that's going to increase that.

In terms of timing, it is a factor. I don't think I'm raising A8s during the first hour after lots of limps. Usually, the blinds get to 100 after around 50 minutes I think, so I'm looking to move into second gear. That's when I might consider raising this on the button. Later on, it's a clear raise if folded round, and a clear fold to a raise. If people are limping like this when blinds are 250+ then this is a terrible field, I'd be folding and waiting for monsters.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Yeah of course I bet flop if I raise pre. AQ then either calls or raises. If he raises, easy for me. If he calls, I can be pretty sure he has an ace at least (I raised pre, he's got to credit my c-bet).

^
players are pretty bad in low buyin tournaments, if you think that a donk is bad enough to call a 575 raise pre with any Ax`s, or SC`s, etc which you want cause i assume your value betting not bluffing with A8(lots of donks will call with those hands) then how can you think that they would ever fold a flush draw or TP to your cbet. if your folding any turn your really spewing chips.

Thanks for your advice. I'm pretty bad, I know.

I ended up winning the hand; if I'd raised I'd have had calls from AQ in early position and 2 two pair hands. So I was a little po'd a meself.

I was afraid if I raise I'd be facing a reraise -- I neglected to mention this is shortly before the add on, and I'm happy with my stack enough not to put it at risk any further.

Near the add-on people with stack sizes close to the rebuy size play atc to double up, leave or rebuy, so a call shove from any two pair makes me sick if I bet river.

I can't imagine you not being ahead on the river. gotta raise for value. I'd also bet flop. I actually think pre is ok as long as you don't suck postflop and I'm assuming at least some of these limpers are feeeeeesh.

Originally Posted by d0zer

I can't imagine you not being ahead on the river. gotta raise for value. I'd also bet flop. I actually think pre is ok as long as you don't suck postflop and I'm assuming at least some of these limpers are feeeeeesh.

this

tyrn, that's exactly why I don't like to limp. For me it was a clear raise or fold spot, until I find out we're close to add-on break.

The fact this is close to add-on means I'd be playing tight by now with this stack, hoping to catch a hand when one of the shorts gambles. I suppose a limp is ok, but I'm looking for 2pr better or I'm folding with this many people in. I doubt I'd raise this close to add-on, I think I'd just take my time to fold.

say you raise 575 like you said, and get 2 callers. pot is now 1975, then on flop you bet around 1300, you`ve now put in almost a third of your stack, with a mediocre hand when we were 65 BB deep and if you get a caller on flop you have no clue if he called with a FD, a weaker ace, etc. the hands just to easily dominated and has terrible reverse implied odds. why play a hand like this in a donkament where you will have no problem value betting your strong hands.
i`m not a great cash game player so not sure how you would play this in a cash game, but in a low BI tournament i really don`t think raising is good here with 3 limpers incl. an UTG limper.

I know you're right, I'm trying to think of a counter argument in a feeble attempt to restore some credibility. I'll think of something.

lol, you have some valid points, they just didn't apply well to this tournament situation i think. nice to have a discussion on mtt's the MTT forum is pretty slow.

Preflop is fine, I dont mind taking a flop in postion with Axs. Bet flop. As played turn is meh whatever, plays out differently if you bet the flop. Raise river and take the donks to value tooooown.

folding preflop seems really bad..