All in KK

Playing microstakes, is it always correct to go all in with your kings if the other player goes all in as well? Is it better to go all-in if that was their first bet, than if they reraised your reraise with an all-in? It's very difficult to tell who is stupid and who is actually has AA.

You can never go wrong getting KK all in PF for less than about 200bb apiece.

Well, the two AA I went up against, and the QQ that hit another Q on the flop disagree, but I suppose I just need to repeat "Don't be so results orientated" over and over for a bit

so many games have tightened up how often they'll get all in pf that it looks to me like KK all in pf is a losing play under most circumstances. generally speaking, i think my observations are mainly for small stakes, not micro or medium+

We've been here before no?

Playing full ring, with a really good read maybe you can get away from KK sometimes. I certainly wouldn't be happy getting 200bb in pre with KK against some of the regs on stars 50nl. That said, I don't think its a much of a leak to stack off everytime - I think there are more important aspects of the game to worry about.

Playing any stakes, getting it all-in preflop with cowboys is never wrong. There is only one possible hand ahead of you, at that point.

Originally Posted by Lithium

Playing any stakes, getting it all-in preflop with cowboys is never wrong. There is only one possible hand ahead of you, at that point.

Never ever say never, especially when it comes to poker

Using this logic, it is also always appropriate to stack off with the second nut flush, despite the fact you are facing a massive overbet on Qs-7s-8s-4h-2s board.


I would say that against an unknown or reasonable opponent stacking off with K-K preflop for 100 or so BB's is correct. However, if my notes on an opponent were to say, "only reraises with A-A", or his stats were 9/2/0.5 over a decent sample size i think then you are going to want to strongly consider folding.

With all the advice, number of books out there, forums like this, and TV poker. Most players know that AA, KK are the only real all in preflop hands in normal situations. Is this not one of the ways the game has moved on?

Personally, I've lost $400 with KK vs AA, and over 50-60k hands of 25NL it's my biggest leak, So my advice is very subjective. (KK is a lifetime loser by $100!).

Nowadays I want a read that they felt <KK pf or they are wildly aggressive before I shove over 4bets or call pushes pf with KK. Put it this way. If they turned their hand over and showed you AA, you'd fold. So AI is a mistake if they have AA. It is also the biggest mistake you can make (because you can't get any more in behind). Since 4 betting with < KK is not the norm anymore, why should we advocate always going all the way?

Disclaimer: My being stung by KK is a very personal thing and has obviously affected the way I view playing it.

i never fold KK preflop, there may be some crazy situation when its warranted but its just never happned to me

Bill, have you ever analyzed your PF-AI KK results as to what hands you went up against?

Of course I won't disagree that it is possible to be behind with KK (or the second nuts on any board).

Poker is a game of reading opponents and playing the odds. As stated, unless you are certain you have a super-read on someone who just reraised all-in your 4xbb bet preflop (as in, they showed you/you saw AA, or you play with the person so much you know what they will down in any situation), laying down KK preflop is tantamount to telling yourself that unless you are on the stone cold nuts (or a jackpot hand), you are willing to be pushed off any hand if it puts you all-in.

Maybe that is the smarter way to play poker, but I can't conceive of a situation (short of those mentioned above) in where I would muck KK to any bet (unless my girlfriend is the one I am going heads-up against). If I lose, I lose, and I would make the same move next time as well. If I was willing to muck those hands, I probably would play low limit games, rather than no limit.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

Originally Posted by mixchange

Bill, have you ever analyzed your PF-AI KK results as to what hands you went up against?

how do i filter hands which were all in preflop in PT?

i used to never fold KK pf until i ran into AA more often than not. methinks Bill plays in fishier games than US players are allowed.

I read an interesting article a while back about folding strong but non nut hands often being the result of bad play.

The jist of it was this. If you have KK and you raise and are reraised by a tight player (whos range in this spot we somehow know to be exactly JJ+) ,you now have 2 ways to play it. You can raise again and fold out anything less than KK (because we know his range exactly again), before calling (or folding) to the push that is always KK+. OR you can just call play some poker on the flop and gain the most from QQ and JJ on low flops and maybe sometimes you can even get away from AA postflop. In this situation the 4bet is a mistake because it wins the least and loses the most. If you didnt 4bet this kind of player you wouldnt have to worry about folding KK preflop and youd have the added bonus of being able to stack off more readily postflop Vs a more committed / QQ after youve shown not quite as much strength. The same concept applies to non nut flushes and straights and so on. Basically, dont make value bets that will only be called/raised by better hands.

Having said that I think at less than 100NL, getting allin preflop with KK is VERY rarely a mistake. Certainly at 25NL I raise and reraise KK preflop until theres none left Vs almost anyone.

Yeah, I think if I raise from EP and then a tight player 3 bets out of the blinds, 4 betting KK is spew and allows them to play perfectly. I'm talking about full ring here obviously, in the aggressive shorthanded games Bill plays in I don't see how you can get away from kings.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

i used to never fold KK pf until i ran into AA more often than not. methinks Bill plays in fishier games than US players are allowed.

nah thats not the reason, there is much more 3-betting going on pre flop at 400nl-1000nl 6-max, players are more aggressive which does not mean its more fishy rather the opposite. I think I could actually find a fold with KK in rare situations against a predictable nit in a 50nl or 100nl fullring game given that i had enough hands on him and some feel for how he plays.

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Originally Posted by wufwugy

i used to never fold KK pf until i ran into AA more often than not. methinks Bill plays in fishier games than US players are allowed.

nah thats not the reason, there is much more 3-betting going on pre flop at 400nl-1000nl 6-max, players are more aggressive which does not mean its more fishy rather the opposite. I think I could actually find a fold with KK in rare situations against a predictable nit in a 50nl or 100nl fullring game given that i had enough hands on him and some feel for how he plays.

i forgot to mention that you play higher as well, where 3 and 4 bets are lighter. you do play fishier games, though, right? fishier than what US players can get.

at 100NL FR i very, very rarely see full stack pf all ins where one of the hands isn't AA.

I don't know how tough the games on Fulltilt Pokerstars etc are now, but I can't imagine that 100nl is tough to beat unless the games have dramatically deteriorated. I am pretty sure that the average 100nl FR regular on Fulltilt would be a losing player on the Prima 1000NL 6-max games i play.

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

I don't know how tough the games on Fulltilt Pokerstars etc are now, but I can't imagine that 100nl is tough to beat unless the games have dramatically deteriorated. I am pretty sure that the average 100nl FR regular on Fulltilt would be a losing player on the Prima 1000NL 6-max games i play.

the average 100NL FR reg on Stars would definitely be a loser there. im not all too impressed with the skill of Stars' 100NL FR regs. they're beatable, just not super beatable. there is something about these games, though, that i think KK all in pf deep is a leak. i just so rarely see worse than AAvsKK there.

Originally Posted by Pelion

I read an interesting article a while back about folding strong but non nut hands often being the result of bad play.

The jist of it was this. If you have KK and you raise and are reraised by a tight player (whos range in this spot we somehow know to be exactly JJ+) ,you now have 2 ways to play it. You can raise again and fold out anything less than KK (because we know his range exactly again), before calling (or folding) to the push that is always KK+. OR you can just call play some poker on the flop and gain the most from QQ and JJ on low flops and maybe sometimes you can even get away from AA postflop. In this situation the 4bet is a mistake because it wins the least and loses the most. If you didnt 4bet this kind of player you wouldnt have to worry about folding KK preflop and youd have the added bonus of being able to stack off more readily postflop Vs a more committed / QQ after youve shown not quite as much strength. The same concept applies to non nut flushes and straights and so on. Basically, dont make value bets that will only be called/raised by better hands.

This fits exactly into my thinking. Ill 4bet KK if my opponent doesnt have a full stack, or if im playing 6max, or if I have a wild player or someone who felts any over pair. Smooth calling a 3bet pf and playing poker against a well known range should be much more profitable than forcing your opponents to play correctly.

Considering the deception that a flat call creates, it should be a good play.

Very interesting posts. The problem seems to be, it's often difficult to read a player at micro unless you've played him for a while. I've seen people minraise their AA before, and I've seen people who think that my raise is some sort of move to try and steal the pot away from their JJ.

I think I've gotten it right so far, he times I've pushed in KK have been when some short stack has freaked out to my reraise PF, or some 36/10 player actually has the goods. God that pissed me off.

Playing $25NL I got KK all in PF 3 times

The hands I was up against:

55
88
AA

I couldve folded against the AA as I 3 bet from the blinds and the UTG raiser 4 bet shoved. But, his range has QQ in it enough that getting nearly 2:1 on my money I had to call. By the time we 4bet we have so much of our stack in that it would be a horrible play to fold.

under 140bbs deep, all in with Kk preflop is a nondecision. Your equity is just too high. Even if you fold just once incorrectly, you have thrown a shitlot of money.
therefore, dont fold preflop.

Not folding KK (presumably to a 3-bet or 4-bet a/i) is not the same as 4-bet (or 3-bet) shoving with it. I think never folding KK is fine, but I also think that shoving is often wrong.

Well, for the first time in my life I just folded KK pre-flop!

I raise to 4xBB, 13/7 behind me re-raises to 16xBB, 18/2.5 in the small blind who I have never seen re-raise before (although I only have about 200 hands on him) makes it 46xbb to go. All players have roughly 100xbb stacks.

My thought process - His range is unlikely to contain much more than QQ/KK/AA or AK. I have never seen this guy re-raise preflop before so AK becomes increasingly unlikely, QQ is much less likely than AA. Decision - I fold. (As did the tag behind, so I never saw what he had.)

Do I still think I was right? Dunno!

One thing I don't understand is why everyone always says "it's probably not much of a mistake at 100NL or lower", refering to going allin preflop with KK.. while it's probably the opposite. Lower stakes are infested with passive players, who will only go allin preflop with AA/KK. So if you have KK, you'll always be screwed.

Odds of you getting KK: 1/221 (0.45%)
Odds of someone else having AA when you have KK at a 6max table: 2.45% (combined: 1/9020)
Odds of someone else having AA when you have KK at full ring table: 4.5% (combined: 1/4911)

(sure feels a lot more in practice tbh, sites "rigging" for action? :P)

So if you're always stacking off 100BB instead of folding when the signs are obvious, you're potentially dumping:
6max: -100BB/9000= -1.1BB/100= -0.55ptBB/100
full ring: -100BB/4900= -2BB/100 = -1ptBB/100

So yeah, increase your winrate by 0.5ptBB/100 or 1ptBB/100 (depending on SH or FR) by folding KK if the signs are obvious!

Hmm, maybe its just because I'm a relative newbie (especially online) but I can't really ever see folding KK preflop without a massive read on the guy you are going against. I mean more times then not the second best possible hand is in fact the best hand. I just can't make this fold playing poker based on the number of people who play AK like AA or KK almost exactly. A lot of people also play QQ very similarly. Therefore villain's range is QQ-AA with AK and occassionally even JJ. With KK you don't just have most of his range beat, you've got it dominated. I'm always looking to get all in preflop with KK. In fact I would say KK is probably my winningest hand because its far easier to get away from than AA if you don't get all in preflop.

excellent topic and discussion. my .02; in my experience @ the microstakes level FR is that if i do not raise 3-4x BB PF with KK , it seems villian will call with Ace rag and catch an Ace on the flop. what i am trying to accomplish with a 3-4x raise is for them to fold (and limpers) so to isolate the ones without an Ace like suited connectors. not saying this is the correct way to do it but seems to work for me.

I think you're a bit confused. The only hand you don't want to be called by is AA; you're so far ahead of any other hand including any ace that your absolute ideal should be getting it in pre-flop against Ax.

The thing is, your argument here makes sense - isolation is a very important concept and is one of the biggest reasons why we raise. But EV is too central a concept to allow your comment to go unchallenged.

If you get called by Ax and an ace appears on the flop, then bad luck, but KK is foldable. It's second pair with only 2 outs. Standard move is to make a pot size bet and, if you get called (on all but the dirtiest flops), slow right down. Just because a hand is the near-nuts pre-flop, it's only ever one pair.

So yes, you are correct to raise to isolate with KK, but you should be just as happy for A9 to call you as 89. Which is more likely to stack off to you on a 249 flop? Or AQ on a Q-high flop? With the Ax hands where the lower card hits, the fact that they have top kicker makes fish feel invulnerable and you'll make that much more money out of them.

Originally Posted by biondino

I think you're a bit confused. The only hand you don't want to be called by is AA; you're so far ahead of any other hand including any ace that your absolute ideal should be getting it in pre-flop against Ax.

The thing is, your argument here makes sense - isolation is a very important concept and is one of the biggest reasons why we raise. But EV is too central a concept to allow your comment to go unchallenged.

If you get called by Ax and an ace appears on the flop, then bad luck, but KK is foldable. It's second pair with only 2 outs. Standard move is to make a pot size bet and, if you get called (on all but the dirtiest flops), slow right down. Just because a hand is the near-nuts pre-flop, it's only ever one pair.

So yes, you are correct to raise to isolate with KK, but you should be just as happy for A9 to call you as 89. Which is more likely to stack off to you on a 249 flop? Or AQ on a Q-high flop? With the Ax hands where the lower card hits, the fact that they have top kicker makes fish feel invulnerable and you'll make that much more money out of them.

Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks for the suggestions and advice. I will definitely use it when I get dealt a pair of Cowboys next time.

Cheers

Originally Posted by jackvance

One thing I don't understand is why everyone always says "it's probably not much of a mistake at 100NL or lower", refering to going allin preflop with KK.. while it's probably the opposite. Lower stakes are infested with passive players, who will only go allin preflop with AA/KK. So if you have KK, you'll always be screwed.

Odds of you getting KK: 1/221 (0.45%)
Odds of someone else having AA when you have KK at a 6max table: 2.45% (combined: 1/9020)
Odds of someone else having AA when you have KK at full ring table: 4.5% (combined: 1/4911)

(sure feels a lot more in practice tbh, sites "rigging" for action? :P)

So if you're always stacking off 100BB instead of folding when the signs are obvious, you're potentially dumping:
6max: -100BB/9000= -1.1BB/100= -0.55ptBB/100
full ring: -100BB/4900= -2BB/100 = -1ptBB/100

So yeah, increase your winrate by 0.5ptBB/100 or 1ptBB/100 (depending on SH or FR) by folding KK if the signs are obvious!

Ok assuming we are OOP and the betting goes 3-12-40-100, our first real chance to get away from is after we bet 40 so

call EV
and lose 80% = -60*0.8 = -48
and win 20% = 140*0.2 = 28

Call EV = -20

So by the time we have a chance to fold the EV is -20, factoring in the EV of folding to a worse hand (won't worry about the other KK for now)

call
and win 80% = 140*0.8 = 112
and lose 20% = -60*0.2 = -12

Call EV = +100

Therefore if our oppoenent has AA 5 out of 6, we still break even.

I believe folding KK preflop is correct play at 50-200NL FR vs 15/7 and tighter opponents 4bet without a good read . The times when I see 2 tight players go allin PF it's almost always AA vs KK. Most players just call 3bets with QQ and AK
Never folding KK PF is a 6max rule.

Originally Posted by DemonDaze

Call EV = +100

Therefore if our oppoenent has AA 5 out of 6, we still break even.

I think considering pot odds is indeed the only way to figure what is the best play here. If you try to make smart laydowns consistently, you'll probably miss a lot of value.

Villain usually has any of those hands: AA, KK, AK, (QQ). Opponents who you think are maniac enough to regularly go AI with other hands should be called anyway IMO.

The distribution of probabilities of these hands depends on your opps, of course. But let's suppose:

80% AA (your equity is 18%)
10% AK (69%)
5% KK (50%)
5% QQ (82%)

So with this exemplary distribution you win 27.9%, so your odds are ~2.6:1. Mix in some bluff-AI-raises and you get even slightly better odds. Depending on how big the pot was before his reraise-AI, it should pretty often be a +EV call IMHO.

But then I only play 10NL and consider myself a newbie

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Originally Posted by mixchange

Bill, have you ever analyzed your PF-AI KK results as to what hands you went up against?

how do i filter hands which were all in preflop in PT?

I'd like to know how to do this as well.. the best I could come up with is selecting KK, then PF raise, then Went to Showdown...

you can fold KK preflop, not usually but if you know your opponent good enough there are some spots where if the 4bet you preflop or something like that you know with that opponent all they have is AA or maybe KK. this would be at full ring though, 6max i would think it would be even harder to fold KK pf.

Folding KK pre-flop is a -EV play in the long run, regardless of the stakes. But of course there are many variables and different circumstances...as is the same with all poker.

Originally Posted by kingnat

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Originally Posted by mixchange

Bill, have you ever analyzed your PF-AI KK results as to what hands you went up against?

how do i filter hands which were all in preflop in PT?

I'd like to know how to do this as well.. the best I could come up with is selecting KK, then PF raise, then Went to Showdown...

Seriously, there has to be a way to do this. I am going to email Poker Tracker.