AK makes top pair on turn & gets check-raised from BB (5NL micros)

I have AK in LP w/ a big stack and since it's the 5NL micros, two people open limp (of course) so I put in a nice hefty 5bb +1/limper raise. The BB, who is very loose & fairly passive, calls. Unwisely perhaps, I bet the flop hoping to make him fold (ok, I know, fish don't fold, and that one third sized bet wouldn't do it anyway -- I know, that was mistake number one). But happily I make my TP on the turn ... and then I get check-raised.

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP: $6.56
MP+1: $5.29
LP: $12.64
Hero (CO): $9.53
BTN: $5.00
SB: $1.64
BB: $5.66
UTG: $15.19
UTG+1: $5.17

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has A K
fold, fold, MP calls $0.05, fold, LP calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.35, fold, fold, BB calls $0.30, fold, fold

Flop: ($0.82, 2 players) 2 J 4
BB checks, Hero bets $0.30, BB calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.42, 2 players) K
BB checks, Hero bets $0.80, BB raises to $2.00,
Hero....?

*Folds, and give the fish credit?

*Calls, hoping he made his TP as well but had a weaker kicker (like KQ), or maybe we'd split the pot if he had AK? Btw, even w/ a KXs diamond flush draw I'm 73% to win.

*Shove?

Any stats on BB?

yea it says hand converted by pt3 so obviously you have it, post his GD stats jeez...have you seen this guy do anything like this before? is he REALLY passive? if so id lean towards him having KJ, otherwise it just seems like spazz with worse kings like kq, kt.

If you're going to cbet the flop, do it like a man or take the free card.

Originally Posted by StarGrinder

If you're going to cbet the flop, do it like a man or take the free card.

i LOLed

Originally Posted by rowhousepd

Flop: ($0.82, 2 players) 2 J 4
BB checks, Hero bets $0.30, BB calls $0.30

Also, readless I'd only expect to see KJ here so post some mofuckin reads!

I think (at the time) I had about 75 hands on him (in PokerTracker), but no specific notes about hands he played. VPIP 40, PRF 10, AFreq 35, AF 1.6.

On the flop, a $.30 bet gave him ~3.7 pot odds; if he was drawing to the flush he would have been incorrectly calling. My $.80 turn bet gave him ~2.8 pot odds. I guess I didn't want to risk that much here w/ larger bets since I really didn't have anything on the flop, and was still vulnerable on the turn. Those amounts were too little you think?

Originally Posted by rowhousepd

Unwisely perhaps, I bet the flop hoping to make him fold (ok, I know, fish don't fold, and that one third sized bet wouldn't do it anyway -- I know, that was mistake number one).

READ THREAD: You Cannot Make Someone Fold

Originally Posted by rowhousepd

I think (at the time) I had about 75 hands on him (in PokerTracker), but no specific notes about hands he played. VPIP 40, PRF 10, AFreq 35, AF 1.6.

On the flop, a $.30 bet gave him ~3.7 pot odds; if he was drawing to the flush he would have been incorrectly calling. My $.80 turn bet gave him ~2.8 pot odds. I guess I didn't want to risk that much here w/ larger bets since I really didn't have anything on the flop, and was still vulnerable on the turn. Those amounts were too little you think?

Actually, its like 4.1:1 pot odds, and 5.1:1 odds of him hitting a flush if he is drawing, so it would still be a bad call, however, not bad enough to convince many fish to fold... The flop amount was most definitely terrible, don't be a pansy. I would 3/4 pot the flop and pot the turn.

[ ] a single important factor for whether or not we should cbet the flop and what sizing we should make it has been mentioned yet

Should we maybe not cbet the flop because the villain is a calling station, and we have nothing but overcards?

We have position on him and he checked, so raise.

Originally Posted by Tasha

We have position on him and he checked, so raise.

Not in of itself a good reason to c-bet.

If you are choosing to c-bet hands like this on these boards be prepared to fire 3 barrels. If you're not sure why you should c-bet you need to ask yourself why in order to have a plan.

As played fold turn you only beat KQ/KQdd which he very rarely has anyways

If we cbet this it's as a pure bluff which has a little bit of sd value. A 40/10/1.6 is probably a semi station postflop so his calling range is something like {55-TT, Jx, XdXd, + random stuff}. Our bluff just isn't going to work that often as he's not folding much and double/triple barreling him is going to be spew without better reads.

So I'd check back flop, as played fold turn.

I say push all in

Originally Posted by D_Fray

I say push all in

This tilts me in so many ways.

Anyway.

I think as a general note OP needs to give some thought to why we bet. Is it for value or is it a bluff? If it's for a bluff how likely is it to work against this villain on this board with this hand and this bet size?

And your sizing on the flop is horrible but I think you already know that

Originally Posted by D_Fray

I say push all in

because?

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

I think as a general note OP needs to give some thought to why we bet. Is it for value or is it a bluff? If it's for a bluff how likely is it to work against this villain on this board with this hand and this bet size?

Originally Posted by surviva316

[ x ] a single important factor for whether or not we should cbet the flop and what sizing we should make it has been mentioned yet

fmp

actually hoopy posted basically that exact thing only better 2 posts before...not to be a dick to monsuierr but his name sounds french so....

I just think i would because it seems like a bluff or semi-bluff 2 me. thats how i play. it works 4 me

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

actually hoopy posted basically that exact thing only better 2 posts before...not to be a dick to monsuierr but his name sounds french so....

... you thought you'd be a dick?

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

actually hoopy posted basically that exact thing only better 2 posts before...not to be a dick to monsuierr but his name sounds french so....

i disagreed with hoopy's post because if we bet (especially this) size, then i don't think it would be as a pure bluff--as he points out later in the post, nothing better folds.

if we bet this flop, especially this sizing, it's either for value because we have a read that play VERY cally and very passively with any draw/A-high etc., or it's to keep the initiative so that we can bluff later streets. the latter only really applies if villain is gonna play balanced/aggressive/unpredictably on the turn and river and make it very very tough on us to get to showdown when we check it back on the flop.

my default/readless play here is to check back the flop and try to get to showdown, unless we improve. i do value bet this against a fair amount of opponents, though, and rarely bet in this spot as a bluff/to keep the initiative in order to bluff at later streets

Originally Posted by HoopyDude

If we cbet this, it's as a pure bluff which has a little bit of sd value. A 40/10/1.6 is probably a semi station postflop so his calling range is something like {55-TT, Jx, XdXd, + random stuff}. Our bluff just isn't going to work that often as he's not folding much and double/triple barreling him is going to be spew without better reads.

In hindsight I think you're right. I was probably thinking that I didn't want him to draw for free and possibly make his diamond flush, so betting the bare minimum for him to improperly call would at least earn me some Sklansky bucks , but I probably overestimated fold equity as he's kind of a station. I also didn't want to spew by betting more, just to have him call call call all the way to the SD w/ like JX.

Originally Posted by surviva316

if we bet this flop, especially this sizing, it's either for value because we have a read that play VERY cally and very passively with any draw/A-high etc.

That was pretty much my thinking at the time, I believe.

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

id lean towards him having KJ, otherwise it just seems like spazz with worse kings like kq, kt.

I wasn't thinking he had KJ, btw, because I figured he'd bet the flop w/ his TP and a drawy board; I didn't think he'd slowplay with Jacks, check/calling the flop, then checking the turn ... but then again w/ stats like his, this fish just might call w/ TP and got lucky by making 2P on the turn. Also didn't put him on, say, KK and suddenly he got his set and got tricky by check-raising.

Good grief, 40 vpip? He's got K2o. Fold and bite him in the eye.

check back flop, if you had something like T9 or QT or w/e it would be better to start a barrel(he folds on Q/K/A a decent % of the time and Q/K turns give us some equity at least, we can barrel lots of gutshot and straight draws since they give us some equity to barrel and gets him off of shit like 22-77 w/o a set. But FFS do not bet the flop if you aren't going to bluff the turn and the river sometimes. If you start a barrel w/ AK a lot of the cards we are going to hit and take the lead with are cards he's just giong to end up folding on.

Originally Posted by bhaley66

READ THREAD: You Cannot Make Someone Fold



Actually, its like 4.1:1 pot odds, and 5.1:1 odds of him hitting a flush if he is drawing, so it would still be a bad call, however, not bad enough to convince many fish to fold... The flop amount was most definitely terrible, don't be a pansy. I would 3/4 pot the flop and pot the turn.

c/cing w/ flush isn't bad on the villains part at all for these PO. If you are c/fing flushes getting 4;1 on the flop you have some serious issues

AK split.

Originally Posted by FTR Bad Beat

AK split.

obv i can't possibly imagine him ever having any other hand here ever