AK facing a raise.

Two hands I had in quick succession last night made me realise that I really didn't know what to do with AK with a raise before me. To make this easier for me to explain heres the two situations. This is $10 NL by the way.

If possible please do this without reads because i want to come up with a framework strategy which I can alter as/if needed.

Example 1)
4x raise UTG when I'm UTG+1. 8 players to act behind me.

*** Export for: QKA23 Game: Texas Holdem Game number: 540585194 ***
Date: 10/14/2005 9:25:22 PM
Game: 540585194: Table: Super Human
Normal Table No Limit 0.10/0.20
Rake: 0.30
Seat: 1 KIPPE1 BB
Seat: 2 medina_baj ~$10 UTG
Seat: 3 QKA23 ~$10 UTG+1
Seat: 4 flezi123
Seat: 5 Valnir
Seat: 6 skejanne
Seat: 7 fenrisen
Seat: 8 hounddog77
Seat: 9 sjonkel2 (Dealer)
Seat: 10 mr_devil SB

------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
Dealt to QKA23: :Ac:, :Kd:
mr_devil : Posts small blind 0.05
KIPPE1 : Posts big blind 0.10
medina_baj : Raises for 0.40
QKA23 : ?????


Example 2)
A 4x raise from EP and 2 callers before it gets to me. I think stack size is important in this one.


*** Export for: QKA23 Game: Texas Holdem Game number: 540553356 ***
Date: 10/14/2005 9:04:11 PM
Game: 540553356: Table: Table Request
Normal Table No Limit 0.10/0.20
Rake: 0.30
Seat: 9 QKA23 $10 CO
Seat: 2 lack300 (Dealer)
Seat: 3 Phaum
Seat: 4 benkabyron
Seat: 5 biff69
Seat: 6 WajLD
Seat: 7 zniper $2.06 UTG+2
Seat: 8 temmey $2.21 MP1
Seat: 1 2Bad-2Mad
Seat: 10 Weslan1 $10 MP3


------------------
OpeningBetRound
------------------
Dealt to QKA23 : :Kc:, :Ad:
Phaum : Posts small blind 0.05
benkabyron : Posts big blind 0.10
biff69 : folds timed out
WajLD : Folds
zniper : Raises for 0.40
temmey : Calls for 0.40
2Bad-2Mad : Folds
Weslan1 : Calls for 0.40
QKA23 : ????


Thanks for your replies in advance.

{This post has been removed}

Advantage of Re-Raising:
-You gain more information on your Ops hand. If you re-raise and get re-raised again, you can assume a big pair and lay it down. If you re-raise and just get called, you can assume an Unmade hand, probably like AK/AQ/KQ, therefore you can probably take the pot away on a rag flop.

Advantages of Just Calling:
-Totally hides the strength of your hand. If he raises you with AQ and an Ace comes on the flop he's going to think his AQ is good and you can de-stack him.

It all depends on the op, and the table image you have..

Advantage of Re-Raising:
-You gain more information on your Ops hand. If you re-raise and get re-raised again, you can assume a big pair and lay it down. If you re-raise and just get called, you can assume an Unmade hand, probably like AK/AQ/KQ, therefore you can probably take the pot away on a rag flop.

or win the pot right there.

facing a standard raise it's a pretty easy reraise. If you have position you might elect to call and make a move if an ace or a king flops. If you're out of position then it's a must reraise.

maybe i'm just crazy, but in this situation, I go all-in everytime. now, at first glance one would think, wait... what if the other players have aa, kk, or qq. well, i got this strategy from a very well-written article in card player magazine. this particular writer was emphasizing the power and effectiveness of fold equity. his basic claim was simple. the chances that the other players are holding aa, or kk, are very small due to you counterfeiting their cards. (kk will still fold quite a bit if a full stack of chips in a cash game goes all-in). If someone with qq or jj makes a stupid play, but good read on you and calls, you still have a 43% chance to win. All in all, when you play several hands like this, the pots you rake from everyone folding to this move added with the big pots you win with underpairs calling, far exceeds the pots lost to callers who you don't outdraw. I've implemented this strategy for quite a while and am very pleased with its results. plus, i'm not a player who enjoys sticking myself in situations where reads are very difficult, so an automatic ak play without a read that works over the long run is very sexy to me. just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by dstir2

maybe i'm just crazy, but in this situation, I go all-in everytime. now, at first glance one would think, wait... what if the other players have aa, kk, or qq. well, i got this strategy from a very well-written article in card player magazine. this particular writer was emphasizing the power and effectiveness of fold equity. his basic claim was simple. the chances that the other players are holding aa, or kk, are very small due to you counterfeiting their cards. (kk will still fold quite a bit if a full stack of chips in a cash game goes all-in). If someone with qq or jj makes a stupid play, but good read on you and calls, you still have a 43% chance to win. All in all, when you play several hands like this, the pots you rake from everyone folding to this move added with the big pots you win with underpairs calling, far exceeds the pots lost to callers who you don't outdraw. I've implemented this strategy for quite a while and am very pleased with its results. plus, i'm not a player who enjoys sticking myself in situations where reads are very difficult, so an automatic ak play without a read that works over the long run is very sexy to me. just my 2 cents.

I don't nessicarily agree with that, you're only getting called by a high pair which we are an underdog to (severely if against KK or AA), we're behind to any pair and there's no way a hand like AQ or KQ calls us, so this is definitely -EV.

I don't agree with this either. I don't want to steal his 4x raise, I want to get more from him after the flop but set myself up preflop so as to be in the best position possible to do so. If he folds I win 4bb, if he calls I'm behind.

And I don't think you'll get any KKs to fold either.

well, from what i've used so far w/ ak, its now my favorite hand. ive had players on tilt, shortstacked, etc. call this move with aq, aj. and while you are an underdog to other pairs, the fold equity and the pots picked up from them folding along with the pots in which you outdraw a caller more than make up for it. i wish i had hand histories to post here, but try it out at a smaller stakes table and see what i mean. if you give it a shot, i guarantee you that you will be more than satisfied with the results.

Do you push UTG and over limpers?

thats stupid. you'll eventually get called by KK or AA and lose everything you made by using fold equity.

While I'm at it,

You fold AQ in these same situations right?

i do this move in a raised pot. if everyone is limping, I do the standard raise. i do not play the same w/ aq, in fact, unless its suited and i have position, i fold to a stiff raise w/ aq.