AIM Convo about c-betting

freechus9: ok
freechus9: villain is tagg
freechus9: you hold TT in MP
freechus9: folds to you you raise standard
freechus9: vilalin calls in LP
freechus9: flop is K87 to tone
freechus9: you fire a c-bet?
xo Jessahh ox: yes
xo Jessahh ox: if you don't then you're handing the pot over to him
freechus9: what if its KQ7 two tone
xo Jessahh ox: yep
freechus9: when would you not
xo Jessahh ox: if i flopped TTx
xo Jessahh ox: or AKQ monotone
freechus9: lol.
freechus9: ok
xo Jessahh ox: that's my default play on most flops
xo Jessahh ox: unless for some odd reason i feel like i can pwn villain by check/calling three streets
xo Jessahh ox: which doesn't happen enough to matter
freechus9: so...c-bet every time.
xo Jessahh ox: i do, yes
freechus9: youo think itsa leak/
xo Jessahh ox: if you don't cbet everytime there, yes
xo Jessahh ox: you're losing value
xo Jessahh ox: unless villain is like 4/2 or some shit
xo Jessahh ox: then i might not

Thoughts?

sauce's guide:

In a Raised Pot:

1. Cbet any flop containing 1-2 paint cards, any flop containing 3 cards 7 or lower, any flop containing disconnected cards and any flop which hit you. Do not cbet if you have not hit a flop with 4 or more ppl in the pot.

Not sure if he's amended this any in the discussion thread.

id say your std play should definantly be to cbet in position. you can rep the K and you still get value from smaller pairs. this isn't something you should do at 100% if you have a read go with your read but unless you have one....just bet.

xo Jessahh ox makes some okay points but some bad ones. While some of it is surely correct, some view points such as "if you don't then you're handing the pot over to him" are very wrong. I think a lot of people tend to cbet way too much when they are much better off checking behind.

P.S. you don't happen to randomly know a kid named Marshall Dworkin do you?

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

xo Jessahh ox makes some okay points but some bad ones. While some of it is surely correct, some view points such as "if you don't then you're handing the pot over to him" are very wrong. I think a lot of people tend to cbet way too much when they are much better off checking behind.

P.S. you don't happen to randomly know a kid named Marshall Dworkin do you?

I agree that in general people tend to cbet too much in a lot of IP spots. However, with TT on the K87 two-tone flop OOP hand, I don't understand how villain can't take the pot away from us most of the time. Could you elaborate?

And no sorry I don't know anyone by that name that I'm aware of =)

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

xo Jessahh ox makes some okay points but some bad ones. While some of it is surely correct, some view points such as "if you don't then you're handing the pot over to him" are very wrong. I think a lot of people tend to cbet way too much when they are much better off checking behind.

P.S. you don't happen to randomly know a kid named Marshall Dworkin do you?

I agree that in general people tend to cbet too much in a lot of IP spots. However, with TT on the K87 two-tone flop OOP hand, I don't understand how villain can't take the pot away from us most of the time. Could you elaborate?

And no sorry I don't know anyone by that name that I'm aware of =)

I don't understand the take pot away point, you have a made hand on a moderate board, you think we should instafold to an aggressive players turn bet? It's not like he's going to have a super balanced range in which we are forced to not be able to call two barrels. Sometimes its more profitable to have villain try to take the pot away, especially with a hand like this with one street of value.
However, you are correct on this board I cbet pretty much everytime. Now you change it to a rainbow board and its a better debate.

Please elaborate on what you mean by "take the pot away," and why you think we are in bad shape if he does so.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I don't understand the take pot away point, you have a made hand on a moderate board, you think we should instafold to an aggressive players turn bet? It's not like he's going to have a super balanced range in which we are forced to not be able to call two barrels. Sometimes its more profitable to have villain try to take the pot away, especially with a hand like this with one street of value.
However, you are correct on this board I cbet pretty much everytime. Now you change it to a rainbow board and its a better debate.

Please elaborate on what you mean by "take the pot away," and why you think we are in bad shape if he does so.

On a rainbow flop I prefer check/calling multiple streets against an aggressive opponent there and will be usually be more prone to make c-betting my default play only against a really passive opponent or if for some reason I think I get better value going for the pot right away than picking up bets from worse hands.

Originally, before the part of the convo that I copied/pasted, the guy was complaining that if his AK/AQ missed he never won the hand. At the same time he was complaining that so many times people would bet after he checked on his missed flops. He knew that his opponents couldn't always have top pair or stronger every time but he didn't know what to do about it. It took me a little while to figure it out, but the guy was hardly ever c-betting without hitting the flop.

This is where the "take the pot away" thing came from. It was just trying to illustrate that if he didn't start c-betting sometimes when he was missing flops that he was probably missing out on a bit of value. In reference to that particular hand though, it was probably bad wording to use when the reason I really think we should c-bet there is because of the bigger chance of an opponent drawing out on us with the flush draw there, etc.

We went on to talk about other related topics, like lines to take with draws that involve c-betting or raising c-bets, how to defend against c-bets, etc.