Advice on getting the best possible start

I want to learn and become proficient at poker and I want to build a decent bankroll. So far I've been through about four 100$ bankrolls and have lost all because I haven't been able to stick to any BR management plans. This is because I want to play higher stakes but my BR hasn't allowed it.

For this reason in about 10 days I'm going to start with a 1000$ bankroll. I know this isn't very much at all in poker terms but it's all I can afford at the moment. This will allow me to enter slightly bigger games than the ultra micros I've meant to have been playing and I hope this will help me.

I would like your advice on whether I should stick to online or try some very small live tournaments, and also how long you think it will take me to get to 20,000$ bankroll, playing 6 hour a day.

Thanks I appreciate your advice,

Gary.

Honestly I think you should talk a lot/read/go over other's hands/whatever before stepping foot at a table again. And I am not being mean, I do this myself a lot when I start playing bad. But you are still a beginner and to me, you putting a bunch of money just seems like an excuse to lose it all more slowly.

I really think that you think that there's not much to skill and the ones who really make it are the ones just playing a shitload.

no no, you've got me wrong there. It's the skill element that appeals to me, if I didn't beleive skill was the biggest factor in determining a winning player I wouldn't be interested at all. I do plan to read and learn more - I'm listening to Ace on the river as I type this, and have just ordered 'the keys to position and calculating the odds' http://www.amazon.co.uk/Masters-Casi...8055373&sr=8-1 I'm going to read harrington 1/2 and skalinsky over the coming week also

It´s prolly not the greatest idea to start off right at 25NL or even 50NL, assuming your urge to play bigger games results in an more aggro BRM. Get your feet wet at 5NL for 10k hands where your opponents beat themselves and you can focus on beating the rake, your emotions and your ego.

Thanks for the advice I'll lean towards 5NL then, I like SNGs, can you think of any reason why I shouldn't play them as much / more than cash games?

Originally Posted by XTR1000

you can focus on beating the rake, your emotions and your ego.

That was a long....longgg process for me....and yet still trying to improve it.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Thanks for the advice I'll lean towards 5NL then, I like SNGs, can you think of any reason why I shouldn't play them as much / more than cash games?

They dont help improve your post flop game. If your goal is to grind out cash, ur better off just starting off lower stakes cash than playing SnGs. Sng's also generate very little FPP versus playing cash games for about the same amount time (not at 5NL so much). If u wanna throw in some SnGs for change of pace or for fun go ahead, but to develop more as a cash player, especially post flop, ur better off grinding cash games.

Thank you with that in mind I'll focus on 5nl cash games to start with.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

So far I've been through about four 100$ bankrolls and have lost all because I haven't been able to stick to any BR management plans. This is because I want to play higher stakes but my BR hasn't allowed it.

Stop being a poker degenerate. It takes more than just skill to make money at this game, it takes time. But you're not going to give yourself the time you need by playing at stakes you're not rolled for.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...te-t59270.html

I also made a post in my blog about why I can't regress but it has vanished now that the blogs have been reformatted. But I would suggest you do the same. I kept it next to my computer and looked at it before every session for weeks/months after my win last August. You need to really search inside yourself and figure out why it is that you refuse to follow BR management.

If you are any good at 25nl, 50nl, then you can crush 5nl and 10nl, and you should be able to build a 1000$ bankroll from 100$ in no time.
I made one minimum deposit a year ago, and never went broke. I did go broke on a couple of sites, but I started a bankroll from freerolls there, and I hand no idea what I was doing playing poker.

25NL online is not easy to beat. I do crush 5nl, and from my posts you will see that my game is far from solid. I regularly get up to 200, 300$, play higher and loose. I think there is little to no chance that you will survive 25NL. Make a 50$ deposit and grind it out. If you can't, then you would have lost your 1000$ anyway.

A friend of mine made something around 10000$ in live games, and he can't beat the microstakes online. Online poker has become quite tough. It's beatable, but it takes a lot of practice, and above all dicipline. If you don't have the discipline to build a bankroll from scratch, you will loose.

HOWEVER.
I'm close to playing 10NL again, and if I don't screw up, I'll meet you at 25NL by the end of summer, so I do appreciate the deposit!

Dude. Didn't you just start playing poker just recently?! Losing 4 bankrolls should tell you something. But it appears as though you can afford to lose it so by all means, spew away. Anything less than 10 BI's, especially for a beginner, is pure BR suicide. I know you want a big BR but learn the game first and stop trying to shoot up to high stakes so fast. So many things are going to pass you by, and you won't even realize it until it's too late.

Take your $1,000, now split it in 2, keep $500 to spend on life. As long as you stick to playing 5nl / 10nl you wont need $1000.

As for playing cash/Sngs both are profitable, just pick what you prefer to play. Personally I make more $$ on cash (3.5ptBB/100 at 10nl over 25k+ hands since...along time ago) But I have more fun playing SNGs!

At the end of the day I want to play the games which I find more fun, even if it means sacrificing some EV, but Im learning and learning and soon enough id imagine SNG EV > Cash EV for me.

What site are you depositing on? and what is your sn on that site?

This is a great community and I'm lucky to be getting advice from so many people.

Jamjoe I think you have valid advice with the bank roll comments - I'll do what you've suggested and just deposit 500$ and stick to 5nl until I have worked my bankroll up to 1000$. Before I move up I'll also add a check that I have to have 10,000 hands at decent win rates as I think this will ensure I've worked that limit well, once I've done that I'll move up to 10nl$ and see how it goes.

Bearing in mind what Oskar said about online poker vs live poker, I think I might take some of the money I'm saving (just 100$ or so) from the other half of my would be bankroll and go up to the Grosvenor in London and play a few small mtts. It would be fun and open my eyes a little to what the live play is about.

I'm starting to realise Char that my poker is as much about my life as it is about any element of skill as you've kindly pointed out. I have completely shifted my approach to the game and I'm hoping this will allow me to grow into a greater poker player. Having read the thread you posted it's encouraging to realise even capable highly bank rolled people make the same mistakes and your frankness really hammered the importance of sound bankroll management home thanks for sharing that. I'm definately going to take your advice and print a sheet to remind me not to degenerate and look at it before each game when I next play with a bankroll.

I've just restarted my blog from scratch and am going to use it to focus me on my short and long term poker goals starting from the informed base that I now have to work from after all the advice and lessons I've learnt over the past couple of weeks.

Mezza you're right, and the fact that I've donked four bankrolls already has told me something. Firstly I am terribly impatient when it comes to achieving anything I value highly or really want. I know this is kind of illogical as you would think the things you value highly would be the things you give the most attention and preperation to but I have been this way for a long time. It's compeltely at ends with becoming successful in poker and so patience is something I am going to have to develop to become good at this game, and it's something I'm determined to develop.

The second reason I've done so badly to date is that I'm looking at my poker to do too many things, instead of just getting good at poker for pokers sakes - I'm putting too much emphasis on the eventual winnings that come from the game once you have mastered it. In a nutshell I'm putting too much pressure on my embryonic game. I've given these two character deficits quite some thought lately and I have poker to thank for that - my impatience and inability to focus on the short term steps needed to reach the long term goals - are things that have been hampering my own development for some time, and I've only just realised it through my attempts at becoming proficient at poker.

Instead of looking at poker as a short term solution to a long term problem, I'm going to look to poker as an end in itself. I am going to be intelligent in my approach and patient. I do have a brain, but so far I haven't engadged it in my poker nearly as much as I should have. This is a big mistake and I'm pleased to say that those lost bankrolls were'nt in vein - the price for realising all of this was those bankrolls.

I'm going to move slowly from here on in. I'm not going to rush things. I'm going to read deeply and maintain a sense of perspective and a sense of humour at all times. I'm going to read the 'set texts' prescribed in just about every third beginners thread. Thanks for the comments and insights I don't know any poker players so It would be a much harder journey were it not for your input.

Thanks again

Self-awareness in less than three hours. You should write a book or something...

Originally Posted by chardrian

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

So far I've been through about four 100$ bankrolls and have lost all because I haven't been able to stick to any BR management plans. This is because I want to play higher stakes but my BR hasn't allowed it.

Stop being a poker degenerate. It takes more than just skill to make money at this game, it takes time. But you're not going to give yourself the time you need by playing at stakes you're not rolled for.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...te-t59270.html

I also made a post in my blog about why I can't regress but it has vanished now that the blogs have been reformatted. But I would suggest you do the same. I kept it next to my computer and looked at it before every session for weeks/months after my win last August. You need to really search inside yourself and figure out why it is that you refuse to follow BR management.

wow been there still there...i have bookmarked your thread and will read it....sh$t.....make it blow it, rinse, repeat, chase, up stakes....most of it is ego, some is wine..... that's tough nut to crack thanks for the link....i'll PM you anyday chardrian

Look, you really need to learn to think in terms of buyins.

I mean, lets say this works. You deposit $1k and go on a heater and start moving up. If you have trouble playing for small "meaningless" amounts, then how are you going to go when you're putting a day (or a weeks) wages on a single hand? You're going to be playing scared.

If you play 5NL and win $10, dont think "I only won $10", think "Nice, I won 2 buyins today!". Then when you're playing 100nl, its just the same. Your movements should be measured in buyins, not $s.

There really isn't a need to deposit more that $5o - $100 imo. You don't have the experience to effectively call yourself a winner at poker. In fact, your experience would say that you are the opposite at this time. That's fine. From reading your posts, I'm well aware that you are determined to improve and become a much better player. That's good you will need that determination, and it will pay huge dividends in your poker journey.

However, the reason I say you shouldn't deposit more than $50-$100 is this. You will need to put in a good sample size at each stakes. Personally, I started with $50. I donked around in some SNGs and 2nl/5nl until my BR was $300 or so. I then decided to transition into cash. And from my experience (limited, but still) I needed to put in around 30k hands at both 10nl and 25nl until I was sufficently BRed for the level about it. This was ~30k at 10nl with a 6.46ptbb/100 and ~30k at 25nl with a 4ptbb/100. So that's about the number of hands and winrate i would think you need to acquire before being rolled for the next stakes up.

That's why I think depositing $500 will be more detrimental to your attempt that helpful. For one, you have shown you hate playing microstakes and want to jump into the bigger games quicker. Well you will feel you are ready quicker if you start with a larger BR. My suspicioun is if you start with a $500 BR and put in 10k hands at 5nl and win $100 or so, then you will say, "Hey....My roll is now $600. That's 24 buyins for 25nl. People only advocate 20 buyins, so I'm overrolled.. I'm gonna take a shot". Then you will proceed to take your shot, either not have the skill or hit variance and donk off all your profits from 5nl or even your entire roll.

However, if you put in $50 you will be forced to get in a significant sample size at both 5nl and 10nl with a sufficient winrate before you are rolled for the stakes above. Your only potential downfall would be getting impatient again and jumping up to stakes, however, that is still a possibility if you start with $500 as I explained before. You have you should probably expect to put in 30k hands at 5nl before you are ready for 10nl. Then another 30k hands at 10nl before you are ready for 25nl. Etc and so on, until you reach higher levels and need to pad your roll a bit more, such as I am before I move to 100nl. But if getting impatient is your downfall this time, then you will not succeed because BRM is a vital part to any successful poker players game.

Good luck.

I used to think I was a pretty damn disciplined guy, but boy can poker kick your ass. #1 piece of advice I can give is to make the game as easy as possible for yourself. Give 95% of your attention to non-gameplay related details, things over which you have complete control.

-play in a quite place with no noise, people, etc. Turn off your phone so it doesn't ring and send you into dumb auto-pilot poker. I also find that when people are over your shoulder you can play worse, trying to impress them or some shit.

-plan on playing only a certain amount of tables on any given session, you can think about adding / removing your standard number of tables later
-Set yourself a time limit. Much like char used to be, I am somewhat of a poker degenerate. When I'm winning, I play really good and exercise bankroll management. When I'm down, I start playing more tables, throw some SNG's and MTT's into the mix, try to regain all my losses plus more because I HATE "being down for the day." (in reality it doesn't mean SHIT, you're bound to lose a buy-in or ten even if you're playing awesome poker.

Be in tune with the self, and don't let your impulsive animal nature take the helm. If think you may be on tilt, quit all your tables. You'll be glad you did in the morning before you spew in a rage. The only times I've ever lost rolls is after I got bad beat or outplayed or something in some tournament, and then, pissed, try to recoup losses, lose again, and decend in a downward spiral of utter stupidity.

-tilt =/= pissed. Tilt can mean you suddenly think that everyone is bluffing you, a very common and bad mindset to be in at any stakes, esp. the lower limits. Quit your tables and take a relaxing break, or quit for the day.

Basically, treat heading into the pokerstars lobby like you're headed into a den of hungry lions, horny mountain gorillas, and the Viet Kong. You have to be FUCKING READY. Poker is 95% keeping yourself under control. The other 5% can be learned on this site over a month or two.

why don't you just deposit 200 and play 10NL? grind it up for the money but more importantly the experience

Sorry to hijack.

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

They dont help improve your post flop game.

Curious as to why you believe this to be so.

25NL online is not easy to beat.

This was one of my problems the few times I'd sit at a cash table. I saw the small stakes and assumed everyone was a donkey. I also struggled to give fair credit to the bets as they were so small. Someone reraises me pre flop, but it's only a few cents. Meaningless. I can call that quite easily. I found (and still find) it hard to take bets of 0.06 seriously.


By the way, I have hears mention of 20 and 30 buy ins but I thought 50 was the standard (2%). Anyone?

I don't think anyone caught the sarcastic undertone...


(just giving you a hard time Slevin )

Originally Posted by The Slevin

So far I've been through about four 100$ bankrolls and have lost all because I haven't been able to stick to any BR management plans.

just deposit 500$

I dunno, sounds like IMHO, the intent has changed, but not the dicipline yet...Then again, my BR hasn't grown in a week...

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Look, you really need to learn to think in terms of buyins.

Yes this is something I had read before and I'm going to make sure I remember this when playing. It's something that Barry Greenstein mentioned in Ace on the River, paraphrased:

"Do not place monetry value on your chips once seated. They are chips. Valuing money is negatively correlated to success in poker."

I'm going to deposit 500$, but as I've already said I'm not going to move up from 5nl until I reach 1000$ and have 10,000 decent hands under my belt.

This thread has been cathartic for me - and I've also picked up some solid advice. I'm really pleased with all of the comments, and thank all of you that have posted. I'm going to save this thread and look back on it regularly.

Originally Posted by AFchung

why don't you just deposit 200 and play 10NL? grind it up for the money but more importantly the experience

This is right on the money. I went through $100 a couple of times (although I was suppoting some of the wifes habit as well. Which is also why I switched to Cake from Full Tilt, no player to player transfers). But I was playing with no idea how much there is to the game. I switched to Cake just to try it out. Put $40 bucks on and started playing $5.50 S&G"s as thats what I was playing at FT. About that same I came across this sight and started LEARNING the game instead of just playing. I cleared my first grand a few months ago. It took me like 9 months (although the first 6 were single tabling). But the things I learned on this site and the time I have spent grinding at these "small stake" games have honed my game. Now according to BR rules I could have moved up to the $11 S&G's a LONG time ago but I haven't. I have played a few here and there but knew that my game just wasn't ready for the move. I am close to $1400 now and when I cross that barrier I will switch to the $11's and assume I will not go back. Not only because I have the BR for that level but also because (hopefully) I have the skills that almost 1000 S&G's have provided. Thats what it is really all about.

I honestly think you should put $100 on and build a roll the right way. As other posters have started if you work on your game and learn all you can then you can build a roll and you can be proud that you took that $100 bucks and turned it into a great profit. I feel BR managment isn't just about what $$ you have to have to move up, it is more about a skill level you need to move up. It goes hand in hand. Without the skills needed you are just going to be a bigger donater then you have already been. If you blow a $1000 roll how is that going to make you feel. It could seriuosly impact your psyche as a player.

Do it the right way man and when you have the bankroll to move up and start playing those limits you want to play you will have the skills you need to stay there.

I wish you the best. The time spent is worth it believe me.

If you can't get to $20k from $100 you won't get there from $1000.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I'm going to deposit 500$, but as I've already said I'm not going to move up from 5nl until I reach 1000$ and have 10,000 decent hands under my belt.

I must be the most ignored poster on the forums. You say you are going to start with a $500 roll, and that you won't move up from 5nl to any higher stakes until your roll is $1000 and you have at least 10k hands under your belt. Uhh, if you do it this way you will have way more than 10k hands under your belt and still not be at a $1k roll. Quick math:

3ptbb/100 at 5nl = $0.30c/100 hands
Therefore, you would need to put in around 170,000 hands at 5nl before making $500 at 3ptbb/100. That would net $510 (170,000/100 = 1,700....1,700 * 0.30 = $510). That many hands will take a long time, and you definately won't want to be at 5nl that long.

Just build your roll by putting on $100 or so and grinding 5nl till you have a BR of $200-$250 or so. At that point look at the number of hands you have put in and your winrate. If you have a good winrate and you have in a decent sample of hands (you'll probably have like 30k hands or so, dependning on your winrate), then move up to 10nl. Grind 10nl till the BR is at $500-$650 or whatever and re-evaluate your hands and winrate. If you are satisfied with them and they prove you are a healthy winner at 10nl over a decent sample, then move up to 25nl. Do the same for it and you will be up to 50nl-100nl in a matter or 3 or so months.

If you try to jump into it too quickly as you did before you will lose. Simple as that. You don't have the skill yet to beat the lower levels so you won't beat the higher levels either. And I really don't see a reason in being so grossly overrolled for a microstakes game like 5nl with $500.

Also Thunder, 20 buyins is actually cutting it thin, but at the microstakes it is usually sufficient because the players are so bad. Everytime you increase your stakes it is generally a good idea to increase the number of buyins you plan to have before moving up again. Say 20 buyins for 10nl ($200), then 25buyins for 25nl ($625), then 30 buyins for 50nl ($1500), then 35 buyins for 100nl ($3500), etc.

Seeing as this has been missed, and I am intrigued, I will re post it

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

They dont help improve your post flop game.

Curious as to why you believe this to be so.

Originally Posted by Thunder

Seeing as this has been missed, and I am intrigued, I will re post it

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

They dont help improve your post flop game.

Curious as to why you believe this to be so.

because if your playing post flop in S&G's your playing them wrong.

LuckySlevin.....As for the whole money that doesn't matter thoughts, you can not ever move up to where the money matters. It is absolutely imperative that the money does not matter at any stake you play. Do you think guys like Sauce, gabe or any 10/20++ player can throw $5K, $10K or even $50K at the pot and worry that it's a fucken Hummer,or that they lost a fucken house during a session. It's about your bankroll and whether you have an edge in the game. Knowing your getting your money in good and willing to lose a buy in at any stake on a 51% shot because long term it pays to do so.

play where the money does not matter and find out if you can beat the game. You will not be playing $100NL or anything higher this year, so forget it. Grind the roll, play the micro stakes and just become a poker player. Like others have said, if you can't beat $2NL and $5NL you will NOT beat $100NL. Take it from me, I grinded from $200 in April after withdrawing my whole BR and it only took me till the middle of May to get to 30 Buy ins for $100NL again. But I can beat $100NL and have been for 2 months since getting back up, but I never had less than 25 buyins and moved to 30 for $50NL and $100NL. I now will not move to $200NL until I have $5K. Probably the end of Aug.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I want to learn and become proficient at poker and I want to build a decent bankroll. So far I've been through about four 100$ bankrolls and have lost all because I haven't been able to stick to any BR management plans. This is because I want to play higher stakes but my BR hasn't allowed it.

For this reason in about 10 days I'm going to start with a 1000$ bankroll. I know this isn't very much at all in poker terms but it's all I can afford at the moment. This will allow me to enter slightly bigger games than the ultra micros I've meant to have been playing and I hope this will help me.

I would like your advice on whether I should stick to online or try some very small live tournaments, and also how long you think it will take me to get to 20,000$ bankroll, playing 6 hour a day.

Thanks I appreciate your advice,

Gary.

LOL, and you'll blow through that one too. And you'll reload again, and you'll blow through that one again.

its simple, and this will probably sound harsh: you want to play high stakes but you really, truly, honestly have no idea wtf poker really is.
this is demonstrated by the fact that you do not even mention which variant you want to play. all you say is "I WANNA MEK MUNNY QUIK"

The cold hard truth is that if you can't beat bad players, there is no way in hell you will be able to beat good players. Hopes and dreams won't beat them for you either. Motivation helps, but not as much as you think. You need to learn to play. Think about this yourself, in a calm and objective manner: If you can't understand all the elements to a hand, nor do you know your own tendencies, nor do you take into account the opponents tendencies, and you are unable (or oblivious) to adjusting, nor can you beat fucking 2NL, how the hell do you think you are gonna beat 400NL? Watching Casino Royale on DVD?

One of the most valued skills as a gambler is patience: recognize opportunities and act upon them. Another one is know yourself. If you do not possess these 2 key skills, which are more like personality traits, you will not succeed (put in a careful manner)

My advice: load up $100 (this is careful BRM, since presumable you could load up just $25 or even less and make up your starting roll gamblin' it up at 5NL) and see if you can progress at 5NL. SNGs and Cash Games play pretty differently from each other, so you may wanna look up on that. Tourneys arent really worth it at that level, cuz you will probably only be able to enter crapshoots, outlasting 100's of players so you can "win" an awesome $15. You can also load up $1000 and play 25NL, 50NL, or even 100NL aggressively, but with your apparent lack of experience, it will be nothing but a futile effort. So start from the ground up, swallow up your pride and ego, and see what comes of it.

No one will be able to tell you "hey, play cash!" or "hey, sngs are best" since its a matter of preference and only you can decide which one you like best. But really, stay away from multi-table tourneys unless you have like 100 buyins or a lot more to play them, and even then only play them if the payouts are worth it and if you perceive yourself to have an "edge" (wtf is that?).

You definitely shouldn't deposit 1000$ and play with that in your roll... Your plan is skewed from the very start. Your intentions are to move to the higher stakes but you'll be playing with enough cash to play at 25NL or maybe even 50NL if you're the type who's extremely risk taking and yet you're going to be playing overrolled for 5NL which just doesn't make sense because your intentions are to move up. The reason this is skewed is because you're severely underestimating the time it will take to get to 10NL, as stacks has said you'll need to put in around 100,000 hands before you can move to 10NL(which could take +4 months depending on how many tables/hours your play). This method could actually take even longer than just depositing 150$ and grinding 5NL up the standard BR management way.

I can really imagine you grinding 5NL for a week , go on a hot streak and increase your roll to 600$ from 500$ and then all of a sudden say "oh hey look I'm rolled for 25NL, I'm gonna try 25NL out", then losing a BI, going on tilt and trying to make up for it at 50NL or something stupid like that.

You already lost 4 100$ rolls, here's my guesses on why (they don't necessarily all have to be correct)
1. You don't have enough discipline: You mentioned playing NL50 HU... you want more than anything to move up in stakes, which is good, but in poker, this isn't possible without discipline, discipline is possibly the most important thing in poker
2. You don't specialize: Every successful player started somewhere, some started with sng's, other's cash, other's MTT's, some started with NLHE, other's PLO, but the one thing all succesful players had was they all started by specializing in something. Once they master something then they can add varieties to keep on enjoying poker. I see you in posts playing in MTTs, SnG's and cash, you're prolly better off for now, picking one and sticking to it until you have substantially grown your BR.
3. You're a losing player: You've already lost 4 100$ BR's in what? 2 months? bad BR management+losing player = broke quickly
4. You have a big ego: It's possible that you believe that you're better than 2NL players because they're so bad and call down with any two and are impossible to bluff and you think that at the higher stakes it will be easier to bluff (which it will be, but they'll read you like a book and know when you're weak or strong). You also proposed a HU match with some of the regulars in 3 months when "you will be a self made millionaire".
5. You don't think in terms of buy-ins: You think losing 100$ is nothing, but in poker depending on which stakes you were playing it can be quite a bit, 100$ is 20BI at 5NL, it might sound like nothing in the real world but in poker 20BI is a lot. When you win 10$ you won 2BI, you didn't win 10$, 2BI brings you that much closer to 20BI for 10NL or whater it is you want to move up to.

I took a shot at 25NL with 15BI about 2 weeks ago and failed miserably and because I was undisciplined I lost most of my BR and went down to my last 50$, but since then I've grinded it back up and have got 360$ now and am hoping to quickly get to 500$ so I can take another shot at 25NL(but have the discipline to move down quicker this time) because I, like you, want not nothing more but to move up in stakes to the point where I can actually make decent money in real life terms. But in order to do this I gotta be disciplined enough to not take foolish shots and move down when I am underrolled. For me, moving up in stakes isn't that hard, it's having the discipline to not lose it all which is the hard part.

Besides how will you feel if you lose 1000$ (lifetilt!!)? I think it's best for you to just deposit another 100$, play 5NL till you get 150/200$ and then learn how to not make mistakes, and as XTR said, focus on beating the rake, your emotions and your ego.

You could use that 1000$ as a huge investment in poker rather than just deposit it into a site and probably not get anywhere with it. You should think about joining a training site, I'm a member of leggopoker and cardrunners and both have very good informative videos and coahces, I've heard grinderschool is also good for the micro/low stakes, if you're more the MTT type of person then you could look into Real Poker Training. Also, do you use a HUD? I'd really suggest you get HEM or PT3, they really help you analyze your game and I've definitely used the software to quickly find my leaks and imrove my game. Ace on the river's a good book btw, I have it on my ipod, the strategy section is pretty worthless imo, but the parts about tilt, ego, emotions and etiquette are very enlightnening.

Bankroll
The old rule of thumb was 20 buyins are enough to play a given level to account for variance. This requires you to move down when you get down to 15 or so, relatively high risk tolerance etc etc. You could say that 20 buyins is acceptable if you are willing to put more money in if you go broke. If you ARE willing to put more money in if you go broke then you could consider your actual bankroll higher than 20x - just that only 20x is currently in your online roll. You need to have an approach that makes sense to you.

I think the best way to approach poker is to plan your bankroll without refills. This suggests that 20x is playing with a lot of risk. People are often recommending something closer to 40 or 50 buyins.

A formula:
$100 : Play NL5 until you're at $250-$300
$250-$300: Play NL10 until you're at $1000
$1000: Play NL25 until $2500
$2500: Play NL50

ONLY PLAY AT A LIMIT WHERE YOU ARE A WINNING PLAYER

It is possible to play for bonuses as well. Also if you haven't deposited on PartyPoker yet you could deposit there and play for the first two months on the beginners tables. They are soft beyond belief.

Learning and Competition
I sometimes hate playing against poor players. They make retarded plays and sure enough they pay me off sometimes, but it seems just as often they show up on the river with a hand they should never have played in this way - but which happens to beat me.

Examine the above for where it went wrong.

I said - it seems. Human memory doesn't give equal weight to positive and negative experiences. I remember the times they win an unlikely pot off me much more and with much more emphasis than the times they play stupidly and just give me their stacks. It may seem that way, but it's wrong - and for me to think that is just shooting myself in the foot.

It's true to a degree that playing against better opponents will teach you to become a better player. However, consider this - what is it you want to accomplish by being the best player in the world? You want to be able to sit down at a table with people who are all worse players than you (because you're the best in the world) and absolutely crush them and take their money.

Guess what - you can do that now. You just make sure you sit down with people who are worse than you.

At some point in your poker career one of the skills you need to learn is to maximise your winnings against the worst players in the world. Regardless of stakes you always want to play against the worst players available and take their money. Playing micro stakes can be seen as an exercise in extracting value from the worst players in the world. It'll be a key skill as you move up through stakes whenever a giant fish sits down.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

For this reason in about 10 days I'm going to start with a 1000$ bankroll. I know this isn't very much at all in poker terms but it's all I can afford at the moment. This will allow me to enter slightly bigger games than the ultra micros I've meant to have been playing and I hope this will help me.

lol. I haven't read all the replies to this thread, but I'll add my 2c.

If you keep blowing $100 you obviously don't have the skill or discipline yet to beat the game, control emotion and stop tilt. Depositing more money ie $1000 isn't going to stem your appetite to play even high and isn't going to help you beat the game.

It took me a while to become a winning player online and it definitely took me a while to control my emotion while playing. I know your enthusiastic for the game and want to learn, but it's a slow process, especially if your just starting out. Sincerely, I hope you do well - but I would wager you'll go bust on this bigger roll too.

Thanks again for all the comments, they've been very helpful in formulating my next steps forwards.

I'm going to deposit $300 and play $5nl until I reach $400, then I'm going to move up to $10NL, and stay there until I reach $1000, once I reach $1000 I'm then going to try $25nl for some time.

Cheers I couldn't have decided on the best way forward without everyones input, also much thanks to Daven, Sil and Erpel for help with the specific targets!

Gary.

Good luck to you is alli can say, if you practice gd brm and are willing to learn there is no reason why you cant reach your goals.

Anyone want to take me up on a 3:1 bet that Lucky is going to loose his BR in a month?

Anyone?

5:1, come on people!

6:1, last offer!

Hey I do wish you good luck, don't take this the wrong way Lucky, it is really meant as an observation of someone who has been watching this thread and soaking in all the good advice.

My serious suggestion is to spend time reading strat and theory, playing at looow limits (with another 100. bankroll maybe), and thinking HARD on poker theory and trying to match up your experiences with what you've been reading to reinforce the leaks as you plug them one by one.

Obviously this is a synopsis of what others have said here and in other posts...

BUT HERE IS THE KEY: Spend at least 100 times the amount of times on these things, as you spend blogging and yapping and scheming about how exactly you're going to strategize your bankroll.

Seriously, I'd forget your blog, and these threads, hit the books and get as many low cost hands as you can. Say goodbye to the social aspect of the poker/forums, etc., for awhile, and get down to serious business, if you really want to succeed.

It may be a bad read, but it seems like you've lost your focus a bit on what you need to be working on.

Good luck to you!

edit/add: not saying don't read the forums, just shift focus more toward the nuts and bolts of fixing your poker game.

Thanks I appreciate your advice

I'm actually going to keep my forum presence up because It as useful if not more useful than reading 'propper books' - being able to ask questions about what I'm reading has really helped me lately

I agree -- I didn't mean to make it sound like the forum is not as good as reading books, just suggesting you focus mostly on playing a better game (those types of posts) atm, and try to get in as much cheap backup experience as possible.

What everyone is TRYING to tell you is that you shouldnt dump a big bankroll on your level of poker knowledge & experience or you will fail. Was just trying to help reinforce.

I've already said how I'm going forward now all finalised thanks to the great advice from this thread. Thanks for your advice much appreciated.