ackward preflop spot AK multiwaypot facing a min 3 b from bb

I must be honest i was pretty much clueless in this spot , especially because i had a note on the min 3 bettor who i only played 10 hands with but who i happened to have a note on when joining the table he took the exact same line with basically the same action in front of him but with QQ+ and he went broke vs a set when flopping an overpair.

- BB :min 3 bettor ( biervat) 25/9)
- CO :Pelo ( 7/4 150 hands , it felt like he was likely to setmine pre becuz of the uberdonk behind him , he does not slowplay big hands pre)
- BTN :kismet , the maniac uberdonk , coldcalling 3 bets and 4 bets , very spastic and aggro,the classical wet dream ( besides blondes with huge knockers)

I ran some numbers and basically vs QQ+ it's a shove , potequity vs range , hurray for dead monies, against KK+ i only had 23% equity BUT i'm pretty sure the uberdonk would have put his chips in regardless and now it feels like BLEH WTF.

basically ship it pre or not. Any chance to take a stab in a bloated 4 way pot at some point?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($4.93)
SB ($15.75)
BB ($5.26)
UTG ($5.09)
UTG+1 ($12.57)
MP1 ($5.40)
Hero (MP2) ($6.76)
MP3 ($5)
CO ($5.16)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, K
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.25, 2 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.23, BB raises $0.45, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.25

Flop: ($2.05) 7, 5, 8 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($2.05) 5 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks

River: ($2.05) 2 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks

Total pot: $2.05

4b/call. If the fish is cold calling 4b's, then why don't we 4b for value?

Yes its okay to ship pre here. No it is not okay to take stab anywhere here postflop.

Originally Posted by ColdDecked

4b/call. If the fish is cold calling 4b's, then why don't we 4b for value?

becuz the spazzer had position on me and was almost guaranteed to bet any flop and the nit would have had position on me which sucks if i flop A hi imo

Originally Posted by TheLongGrind

becuz the spazzer had position on me and was almost guaranteed to bet any flop and the nit would have had position on me which sucks if i flop A hi imo

In general, if your worried about being outplayed postflop due to being out of position, it is better to raise bigger. This lowers spr and makes decisions easier postflop. This is one of the reasons players tend to 3b a larger amount oop and 3b smaller ip.

In you specific case, the reasons you stated are even more of a reason to 4b and 4b big.

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

In general, if your worried about being outplayed postflop due to being out of position, it is better to raise bigger. This lowers spr and makes decisions easier postflop. This is one of the reasons players tend to 3b a larger amount oop and 3b smaller ip.

In you specific case, the reasons you stated are even more of a reason to 4b and 4b big.

actually if i am 4 betting here i think i prefer 4 bet shoving i wouln't be shocked to see the spazzer call it of with any pair or like some weird broadwayhand. hell even JTs could be good enuf for him. My main issue here was that i was scared of the monster under the bed , i realize that. Even if BB has QQ+ as his range to min 3 b pre i can profitable 4 bet shove potequity wise. I saw him do it with QQ before in a similar spot so i think it's reasonable to give him QQ+. Basically i missed oout on a preflop spot , i was being a twat .

Originally Posted by TheLongGrind

actually if i am 4 betting here i think i prefer 4 bet shoving.

I like.

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

I like.

i like it too if my calculations would be right. If QQ+ is his range and i'm shoving and spazzmonky folds to the shove than it's a fold or my math formula stinks.

FML time for some donky math. God i hate maths. SO in this situation , i'm ignoring the players behind me except the BB obviously , spazztard calling my 4 bet shove would be a great dead money bonus supposing the BB is always going to call.

we're only caluclating the BB's range and our potequity. when the action gets back to me the pot is 1.30 $ . If i 4bet shove i'm going all in for 4.76$ more ( in comparison with the BB's effective stack ignoring the other players for now) . SO basically the total pot would be (4.76$ x2) + 1.30$. giving the grand total of 10.82 $. Which brings my potequity close to 44%. My hand equity with AKs vs QQ+ , AKo , AKs would be 42%. so slightly -EV.
Make that KK+,AKo,AKs and it's around 40%. I still think it could be an ok 4 bet shove becuz of the spazztard behind me left to act with a real crappy range and i'm effectively 6.76$ deep with him and he has a weak range for sure if he calls my 4 bet shove. Making the 4 bet shove profitable but against the BB alone , let's suppose the CO and BTN were bit splashy pre but never mentally disturbed whe, facing 4 bet shoves then it would be a slightly - EV play.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.904% 22.62% 19.28% 8133909 6934104.00 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 58.096% 38.81% 19.28% 13956267 6934104.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

This is worse case scenario. If his calling range is only QQ+, AK and the maniac folds, you will be putting in $5.01 more to win a pot that is $11.07 which is roughly 45%. AK vs that range is around 42%. I think the maniac calls enough and bb folds or calls with a wider range where it definitely makes up for the missing ~3%.

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.904% 22.62% 19.28% 8133909 6934104.00 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 58.096% 38.81% 19.28% 13956267 6934104.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

This is worse case scenario. If his calling range is only QQ+, AK and the maniac folds, you will be putting in $5.01 more to win a pot that is $11.07 which is roughly 45%. AK vs that range is around 42%. I think the maniac calls enough and bb folds or calls with a wider range where it definitely makes up for the missing ~3%.

agreed in short whatever the percentages are it's close unless mr spazztard obliges. Having mr spazz behind me could turn a slightly EV- situation in a clear EV+ situation.

Would be tempted to 4bet or even fold Ako here but happier calling with a suited version

Looks fine to me.