Ace-Low Suited

Ace low suited being defined as Ace with ten or lower of same suit.

Peoples thoughts on playing this type of hand?

Some people like to play this hand almost religiously, regardless of the bet or raise preflop.

If im in early position I will call, raise sometimes, and will definitely fold to an over the top reraise.
I like getting this hand if I happen to be on the button, because when I try and steal the blinds but get called then at least I have an ace and a small possibility of getting a flush.
If im in late position I will usually play this if theres lots of callers as Im getting great implied odds if I make a flush.

How do you other fellow FTR's play this type of hand? As some people I know think its VERY overrated and should hardly be played at all.

{This post has been removed}

also I would prefer to have A-2 to A-5 than A-6 to A-9

Originally Posted by steelwheel

also I would prefer to have A-2 to A-5 than A-6 to A-9

I tell you what, I'll take A9s and you can A2s every hand we play. We'll see who wins the most.

The higher the 'X' the better the Suited Aces are.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by steelwheel

also I would prefer to have A-2 to A-5 than A-6 to A-9

I tell you what, I'll take A9s and you can A2s every hand we play. We'll see who wins the most.

The higher the 'X' the better the Suited Aces are.

yea I know that A9s will beat A2s about 70-75% of the time. But the only reason I would prefer A-2,3,4,5 suited is because it gives me the added possibility of a straight.
Because if I have A8s and flop an Ace Im going to hardly play that hand ever unless I also have a flush draw with it too. With A8s im looking for two pair or flush draw (or hopefully both).
With A2,3,4,5 suited im looking for two pair, flush draw OR striahgt draw on the flop.

So usually with A-2,3,4,5 suited I see more of the turn and river than with A-6,7,8,9 suited. which is why I prefer them.

Originally Posted by steelwheel

yea I know that A9s will beat A2s about 70-75% of the time. But the only reason I would prefer A-2,3,4,5 suited is because it gives me the added possibility of a straight.
Because if I have A8s and flop an Ace Im going to hardly play that hand ever unless I also have a flush draw with it too. With A8s im looking for two pair or flush draw (or hopefully both).
With A2,3,4,5 suited im looking for two pair, flush draw OR striahgt draw on the flop.

So usually with A-2,3,4,5 suited I see more of the turn and river than with A-6,7,8,9 suited. which is why I prefer them.

the high card strength of A9s easily makes it a better hand than the straight possibilities of A2s.

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

the high card strength of A9s easily makes it a better hand than the straight possibilities of A2s.

not the way I play them it doesnt. If i only flop a pair of aces, my high card 9 is shit and I usually end up throwing that hand away.
So For my way of playing Ace low suited, having the straight possibility means theres more of a chance im goin to bet on the flop.

-I'll limp all Axs from mid position and on.
-I'll never raise it from anywhere.
-I'll never call more than a 2-3bb bet with it.
-I ALWAYS keep in mind that i'm looking for the flush draw. Pair of aces with the low kicker against aggression is a fold situation.

Alot of the raising and calling is read based... Make your own decisions.

I don't play them that much (unless I'm in late position) because usually most people get aggressive after the flop to knock those who might chase.

Originally Posted by steelwheel

not the way I play them it doesnt. If i only flop a pair of aces, my high card 9 is shit and I usually end up throwing that hand away.
So For my way of playing Ace low suited, having the straight possibility means theres more of a chance im goin to bet on the flop.

you're probably throwing away a lot of winners if you automatically dump A9 even if you pair the ace.

your chances of flopping a straight or even a straight draw are so slim that it barely adds any value to the hand. in fact, you can only make ONE straight using both cards, the wheel.

connectors can make 4.

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

you're probably throwing away a lot of winners if you automatically dump A9 even if you pair the ace.

your chances of flopping a straight or even a straight draw are so slim that it barely adds any value to the hand. in fact, you can only make ONE straight using both cards, the wheel.

connectors can make 4.

I probably should have been more clearer. If all I get on the flop is an ace then Ill take a stab at it, but if I get any aggression Ill drop my hand easy as.
Even though there is only one straight I can make with the Ace-low (the wheel) Ive gotten it quite a bit more than you would probably expect to get it.

Originally Posted by steelwheel

Even though there is only one straight I can make with the Ace-low (the wheel) Ive gotten it quite a bit more than you would probably expect to get it.

0.32% on the flop
1.06% by the turn
2.1% by the river

anything other than that is just short term variance.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by steelwheel

also I would prefer to have A-2 to A-5 than A-6 to A-9

I tell you what, I'll take A9s and you can A2s every hand we play. We'll see who wins the most.

The higher the 'X' the better the Suited Aces are.

The higher the X goes doesnt necessarly make the suited aces better. With A9 the only thing you SHOULD be looking for is the flush draw (and of course the two pair, trips) you dont want to just pair up the ace with no flush draw as more times than not your going to find yourself in a whole heap of crap.
At least with the very low suited aces there is something else to look for on the flop - a straight draw, although as Hypermegachi pointed out above, your not going to complete that straight a hell of alot times. I suppose if you like having a pair of aces with crap kicker than A9 is good. But I dont so I prefer to have the option of getting a straight (however small that probability is), which is why I prefer A-2,3,4,5. I guess its just a matter of preferences.

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

anything other than that is just short term variance.

yea I know, im probably just forgetting all the times that I missed the striaght draw

Originally Posted by steelwheel

With A9 the only thing you SHOULD be looking for is the flush draw (and of course the two pair, trips) ...if you like having a pair of aces with crap kicker than A9 is good. But I dont so I prefer to have the option of getting a straight (however small that probability is), which is why I prefer A-2,3,4,5. I guess its just a matter of preferences.

Don't forget a very good thing that can happen with A9: a 9-high flop. Your likey opps are T9, J9, and Q9 people and if you keep your eye on their straight possibility, you can make very good with this hand.

That said, I prefer Ababy to A6-9, for the same reason as steelwheel. It's not a hand you fight with to the bitter end. Nor is A8 or A9. I think the straight possibilities are similar to the 9-high possibilities, but don't have any math on it.

To me it goes without saying that you don't flop wheels or 2pair very often; probably a matter of personality more than anything else. You just have to know with exactitude what your starting hand is good for.

Originally Posted by steelwheel

The higher the X goes doesnt necessarly make the suited aces better. With A9 the only thing you SHOULD be looking for is the flush draw (and of course the two pair, trips) you dont want to just pair up the ace with no flush draw as more times than not your going to find yourself in a whole heap of crap.
At least with the very low suited aces there is something else to look for on the flop - a straight draw, although as Hypermegachi pointed out above, your not going to complete that straight a hell of alot times. I suppose if you like having a pair of aces with crap kicker than A9 is good. But I dont so I prefer to have the option of getting a straight (however small that probability is), which is why I prefer A-2,3,4,5. I guess its just a matter of preferences.

SSH, Page 70:

"Despite what many players think, the size of the kicker is important. A9s is a much better hand than A2s. First, a pair of nines is far more likely to win a showdown than a pair of deuces. Second, a nine is often enough to win a kicker war, while a deuce obviously never is. Many loose games feature players who play any ace, suited or not, no matter the circumstances. If an ace flops, opponents will often have hands like A6o. In that circumstance, a bigger kicker is the difference between winning and "Chopping".

Some Players also mistakenly conclude that A5s-A2s are better than A9s-A6s because they can make a wheel. While the wheel possibility is useful, it generally does not overcome the high card strength of the latter hands. A6s and A5s run closely in strength (the wheel potential is worth slightly more than one pip of high card strength), but otherwise the bigger hands are better."


--Case Closed--

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

SSH, Page 70:

"Despite what many players think, the size of the kicker is important. A9s is a much better hand than A2s. First, a pair of nines is far more likely to win a showdown than a pair of deuces. Second, a nine is often enough to win a kicker war, while a deuce obviously never is. Many loose games feature players who play any ace, suited or not, no matter the circumstances. If an ace flops, opponents will often have hands like A6o. In that circumstance, a bigger kicker is the difference between winning and "Chopping".

Some Players also mistakenly conclude that A5s-A2s are better than A9s-A6s because they can make a wheel. While the wheel possibility is useful, it generally does not overcome the high card strength of the latter hands. A6s and A5s run closely in strength (the wheel potential is worth slightly more than one pip of high card strength), but otherwise the bigger hands are better."

--Case Closed--

lol seems like you always know where to look for the source of my advice :P

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

SSH, Page 70:

"Despite what many players think, the size of the kicker is important. A9s is a much better hand than A2s. First, a pair of nines is far more likely to win a showdown than a pair of deuces. Second, a nine is often enough to win a kicker war, while a deuce obviously never is. Many loose games feature players who play any ace, suited or not, no matter the circumstances. If an ace flops, opponents will often have hands like A6o. In that circumstance, a bigger kicker is the difference between winning and "Chopping".

Some Players also mistakenly conclude that A5s-A2s are better than A9s-A6s because they can make a wheel. While the wheel possibility is useful, it generally does not overcome the high card strength of the latter hands. A6s and A5s run closely in strength (the wheel potential is worth slightly more than one pip of high card strength), but otherwise the bigger hands are better."

--Case Closed--

lol seems like you always know where to look for the source of my advice :P

8-)

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

SSH, Page 70:

"....
--Case Closed--

well, not really. Im not talking about small stakes holdem. Im talking about in NL holdem, which is entirely different than low limit holdem.

I suppose if I was playing in s small stakes low limit game then I would prefer the higher X's ONLY because in limit I cant loose my entire stack with my crap kicker whereas in holdem I can .

Originally Posted by steelwheel

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

SSH, Page 70:

"....
--Case Closed--

well, not really. Im not talking about small stakes holdem. Im talking about in NL holdem, which is entirely different than low limit holdem.

I suppose if I was playing in s small stakes low limit game then I would prefer the higher X's ONLY because in limit I cant loose my entire stack with my crap kicker whereas in holdem I can .

That doesnt really make any more sense. I CAN lose in the long run if I continue to play crappy hands, just as you can lose it all on one hand. The premise is the same whether its NL or Limit. The idea of Small Stakes is that there are many players seeing the flop, not because of the size of the limit. If there are many players seeing the flop with crap cards, and taking them too far, then that constitutes a relatively small stakes game. It doesn't matter what NL game you are playing, the $200 Max Buy-in is still relatively small stakes.

If there are fewer players in the flop, thus, a 'medium stakes' game, then all the more reason to play A9s, because you are likely to beat out the other kickers. I dont know how you look at it that A2-A5s is more profitable than A6-A9s, it just doesnt make sense. Find me a book somewhere saying that the Lower Axs are more profitable then I will back down. Post this question on 2+2 or something, I would be glad to read what they say.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

If there are fewer players in the flop, thus, a 'medium stakes' game, then all the more reason to play A9s, because you are likely to beat out the other kickers. I dont know how you look at it that A2-A5s is more profitable than A6-A9s, it just doesnt make sense. Find me a book somewhere saying that the Lower Axs are more profitable then I will back down. Post this question on 2+2 or something, I would be glad to read what they say.

OK, here is in a nutshell why I prefer A2-A5s than A6-A9s.

With A6-A9 what I want on the flop is two pair, trips or hopefully flush draw - I dont want to see JUST an ace flop, as thats no good to me, as if someone shows some aggression Im going to have to fold.

With A2-A5s what I want to see on the flop is the same as above except I can also possibly get a straight draw. So I have a little bit more of a chance with getting something I want on the flop with A2-A5s.

You might enjoy flopping a pair of aces with a weak kicker, but in MY game I dont. Which is why to ME A2-A5s is more profitable than A6-A9s.

edited to add.... so in MY style of play I make more of a profit with A2-A5s than with A6-A9s.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

The idea of Small Stakes is that there are many players seeing the flop, not because of the size of the limit.

OK, sory I havent actually read that book so I assumed it was a limit book.
Because for me I play hands differently in NL than in Limit.

I had a feeling of deja vu when reading this thread so...

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ted+connectors

My quote from that thread: "I'd kinda look at it this way for my game since I'm mostly playing SnG's and MTT's...

-AKs Raise pre-flop from any position (what else is there to say about AKs that hasn't already been said), AQ-A10 Limp in early position, raise in late position (read dependent of course). Calling re-raises pre-flop, depends on the situation.

-A5s-A2s Limp in any position if it can be done (fold if reraises are about). W/ a good read on a table maybe raise on the button for a blind steal and if I'm called I'll see where I'm at.

-A9s-A6s These seem to be problem hands for me because there are no 3 card connectors for straights just 4 card possibilities so basically when you are playing these types of hands you are subconsciencely (or consciencely) ONLY playing for the flush. Since you should always be looking for as many outs has possible to make your best hand, and if you want to limp in w/these hands that's ok but not all the time.


On a side note I personally hate A6s or o/s and I feel it to be the devil.
"

Originally Posted by jokerindapack

-A9s-A6s These seem to be problem hands for me because there are no 3 card connectors for straights just 4 card possibilities so basically when you are playing these types of hands you are subconsciencely (or consciencely) ONLY playing for the flush. Since you should always be looking for as many outs has possible to make your best hand, and if you want to limp in w/these hands that's ok but not all the time.

hmm my thoughts exactly

Originally Posted by steelwheel

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

If there are fewer players in the flop, thus, a 'medium stakes' game, then all the more reason to play A9s, because you are likely to beat out the other kickers. I dont know how you look at it that A2-A5s is more profitable than A6-A9s, it just doesnt make sense. Find me a book somewhere saying that the Lower Axs are more profitable then I will back down. Post this question on 2+2 or something, I would be glad to read what they say.

OK, here is in a nutshell why I prefer A2-A5s than A6-A9s.

With A6-A9 what I want on the flop is two pair, trips or hopefully flush draw - I dont want to see JUST an ace flop, as thats no good to me, as if someone shows some aggression Im going to have to fold.

With A2-A5s what I want to see on the flop is the same as above except I can also possibly get a straight draw. So I have a little bit more of a chance with getting something I want on the flop with A2-A5s.

You might enjoy flopping a pair of aces with a weak kicker, but in MY game I dont. Which is why to ME A2-A5s is more profitable than A6-A9s.

edited to add.... so in MY style of play I make more of a profit with A2-A5s than with A6-A9s.

You dont understand, though, that Pairing the 9 and winning is worth more than pairing the 2, and this amount won is worth more than the wheel straight.

Going through my PT stats, I've been dealt A2-A5s 222 times over the past 20000 hands, And I've won 12% of the total for a net of -$75. I've won with a Bicycle Straight only twice, out of 222 times, for a net of $22. Thats less than 1%. All A2-A5s categories are negative, with exception to A4s.

On the contrary, I've been dealt A6-A9s 267 times, and I've won almost 22% of the pots. Thats nearly 10% more pots won with these suited Aces than with the others, even with 20% more hands seen. I've won a net -$45, all due to the lower values of A6s and A7s. I'm up money in both A8s and A9s. I've won by holding a pair of nines 5 times in total out of 72, I've also won with a pair of eights 5 times out of 57.

The higher cards are worth more, whether its NL or Limit.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

...
On the contrary, I've been dealt A6-A9s 267 times, and I've won almost 22% of the pots. Thats nearly 10% more pots won with these suited Aces than with the others, even with 20% more hands seen. I've won a net -$45, all due to the lower values of A6s and A7s. I'm up money in both A8s and A9s. I've won by holding a pair of nines 5 times in total out of 72, I've also won with a pair of eights 5 times out of 57.

The higher cards are worth more, whether its NL or Limit.

hmm interesting. Question: if you hav A5-A9s and you only flop an ace will you play that quite strongly (if board isnt flush or boat possible) or fold it to aggression?

Because I tend to play it VERY carefully as lots I end up against a better kicker so I usually fold it to aggression. So do you think that having A5s-A9s and pairing your ace is a good hand? as the only thing that I want to see on the flop is the flush draw (and of course trips or quads etc), which might be why I dont tend to play it much.

So I think what im asking, do you think its profitable to play A5-A9s strongly with only aces if the board isnt scary?

Originally Posted by jokerindapack

AQ-A10 Limp in early position

NEVER!!!

Originally Posted by jokerindapack

-A5s-A2s Limp in any position

Again, No!! Limp only in Late position with many people in the hand.

Originally Posted by jokerindapack

-A9s-A6s These seem to be problem hands for me because there are no 3 card connectors for straights just 4 card possibilities so basically when you are playing these types of hands you are subconsciencely (or consciencely) ONLY playing for the flush. Since you should always be looking for as many outs has possible to make your best hand, and if you want to limp in w/these hands that's ok but not all the time.

You are also playing for the nine high flop, as well as the flush, as well as the Ace. With cards lower than these if you flop an Ace you can't outkick anyone. However, with A8s and A9s, you are very likely to have a good kicker, because usually people will raise with kickers higher than these.

Originally Posted by jokerindapack

On a side note I personally hate A6s or o/s and I feel it to be the devil.
"

Then don't play it.

I decided to look this suited aces thing up via google. Ive only come across one article so far that talks about A2-A5s vs. A6s-A9s

Now to answer the question of ATs and above and A5s and below versus A9s A8s A7s A6s, I like the first ones because you can also make a straight with them. I would take A5s over A8s because the A and the 5 can work together to make a straight, unlike the A8s. When you play weak Aces though like A5s, you have to be extra cautious if you catch an Ace on the flop. You won't be sure if your kicker is good or not so you'll have to use some more thinking. Playing these only in later positions can help you make better decisions because people will check most likely if they don't have the A or that hand beat.

BTW, I use to post on RGP and I NEVER got as much food for thought as I do here at FTR!

Originally Posted by steelwheel

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

...
On the contrary, I've been dealt A6-A9s 267 times, and I've won almost 22% of the pots. Thats nearly 10% more pots won with these suited Aces than with the others, even with 20% more hands seen. I've won a net -$45, all due to the lower values of A6s and A7s. I'm up money in both A8s and A9s. I've won by holding a pair of nines 5 times in total out of 72, I've also won with a pair of eights 5 times out of 57.

The higher cards are worth more, whether its NL or Limit.

hmm interesting. Question: if you hav A5-A9s and you only flop an ace will you play that quite strongly (if board isnt flush or boat possible) or fold it to aggression?

Because I tend to play it VERY carefully as lots I end up against a better kicker so I usually fold it to aggression. So do you think that having A5s-A9s and pairing your ace is a good hand? as the only thing that I want to see on the flop is the flush draw (and of course trips or quads etc), which might be why I dont tend to play it much.

So I think what im asking, do you think its profitable to play A5-A9s strongly with only aces if the board isnt scary?

I play my hand until I'm shown aggression against. I don't put my opponents on a hand until they give me reason to otherwise. I raise my Ace in middle position and take control of the hand. I don't play it passively and check-call it down to the river. If bet into, you either Raise the Ace or let it go.

With A9s, I've won by just an Ace 4 times, lost just once to a higher kicker. (Against ATo) With A8s, I've won with my Ace three times, I've never lost to a higher kicker. A7s I've won Three times with my lone Ace, lost twice to being outkicked, (Once against a passive AJo, another against A8o). With A6s, I've won once and lost once to a higher kicker.

With A5s, I've won twice with Ace High, no wheels, never lost to a Higher Ace. With A4s, won 4 times with Ace, won 2 wheels, lost once vs. higher kicker. With A3s, won once with Ace, no wheels, havent lost to a higher kicker. With A2s, 2 wins with my ace, outkicked twice, and again no wheels.

came across this little FTR thread

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...group-6-94.htm

Fnord says that if you hold As5s then you will get these flops, and lists them into categories of ; Once in a lifetime; Longshots; Strong but uncommon; and Common.
Not really relevant but its an interesting read, especially the flops he says are common....

Xs Xs X Draw to a nut flush (careful if the board pairs up.)
Ax X X Top pair, no kicker also trouble
5x X X If the ace comes on the turn or river you can sometimes beat up top pair strong kicker with your two pair. Somewhat safer flop than the pair of Aces because you have a better idea of where you stand.
2x 3x X Gutshot straight draw, several variations
2x 3x 5x Pair with a gutshot draw to the sucker straight. Even worse if single or two suited without spades.

and then says

Note: A6s - A9s can't flop bicycle straights nor gutshot straight draws, hence are weaker hands than A2s - A5s since the difference in kickers is trivial

Originally Posted by jokerindapack

AQ-A10 Limp in early position

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

NEVER!!!

I like to be sneaky in EP so when I do get raised I call, if I hit then boom that guy is done. You play your way I play my way we both get paid off in the end.

Originally Posted by jokerindapack

-A5s-A2s Limp in any position

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Again, No!! Limp only in Late position with many people in the hand.

If I can see it cheap I'm gonna do it...again difference in philosophy.

Originally Posted by jokerindapack

-A9s-A6s These seem to be problem hands for me because there are no 3 card connectors for straights just 4 card possibilities so basically when you are playing these types of hands you are subconsciencely (or consciencely) ONLY playing for the flush. Since you should always be looking for as many outs has possible to make your best hand, and if you want to limp in w/these hands that's ok but not all the time.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

You are also playing for the nine high flop, as well as the flush, as well as the Ace. With cards lower than these if you flop an Ace you can't outkick anyone. However, with A8s and A9s, you are very likely to have a good kicker, because usually people will raise with kickers higher than these.

I won't disagree with how to play it, but people raise w/ a lot these days pre-flop...not just A-x suited...I guess in the end it's all about post flop play and how well you are at it.

Originally Posted by jokerindapack

On a side note I personally hate A6s or o/s and I feel it to be the devil.
"

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Then don't play it.

I do play it I just don't hit has much has I'd like to hit w/ this hand...even a measly pair of 6's on the flop...a very weird hand for me...but we all have our weird hands.

And, just because I know I'm going to have to post this, These are my win/loss numbers. Again, this is through 21000 hands, 96 taken to showdown:

From A6s-A9s:

Ace High:
2,-1, -7, = Net -$6

Pair of Aces:
+5.5 +4.25, -12, +6, + 8.75,2.5, 2, 3,-2 = Net $18

Pair lower than Aces, equal to X of Axs:
+16, +3.75, +15, 6.75, 4.25, -1.5, -18, +13, -8 = Net $31.25

I'm not including Straights I've won using four cards from the board.

From A2s-A5s:

Ace High:
-4, -1.5, -1, -5, -16, -1, -3 Net = $-31

Pair of Aces:
3.25, 1.13, 19.5, 15, -14, -3.5, 7.25, 4.75, -5, -7 Net = $21.38

Pair lower than Aces, equal to X of Axs:
-1, -7, -3, -8, 17, 9.25 Net = $7.25

From Wheel:
7.25, 4.25 Net = $11.50

The numbers to look at here are the Amount won by the Pairs not Aces in the first group, compared with the amount won by the pair lower than the Aces in the second groupo PLUS the wheel.

So, in this case, $31.25 > (11.25+7.25) = 18.50

Net difference of $12.75, or 41%

Also,

Can you remember the last time you actually won a hand with a wheel? and then proceeded to take all his money because of the wheel?

Like I said, I've won twice with it, and they werent big paydays.

There are a couple things that haven't been posted here.

My thoughts:

A2-5: essentially worthless other than a limp in late position. Yes, you are looking for a flush, but that doesn't happen often enough to make a limp from any position profitable long term (from late you can often buy the pot on the flop depending how many see it). Furthermore, what happens when you get that magic 2-pair on a flop of A 2 8, you gotta fear someone limping with pocket 8's (not too likely), or someone limping with A8, and your probably gonna lose your stack, though this wont happen all the time, it will happen enough to make A-baby a reasonably unprofitable hand.

As elipses stated about winning with a wheel, assume you have A3, bunch of limpers, looking like good implied odds for you, flop comes 245, you gotta worry about guys like me that will limp 6-2 in late position dreaming of a situation like this, you must also worry about the guy with 67 who now has an open ended straight draw, you will most likely try to draw some value bets with the confidence you have in your "wheel", this will give him odds to hit his hand, assume an 8 comes on the river, your not gonna see his nut straight coming.

The situations I've detailed are entirely hypothetical, but they happen more often than you think. When they do, you will often lose your entire stack in NL, this is enough to make them unprofitable compared to the tiny pots you win with your A-shitkicker.

Food for thought.

Jeff has convinced me that A8 and A9 deserve better treatment. One thing in particular: TPTK with a 8- or 9-high flop is IMO much stronger than TPTK with jacks and queens and shit out there. Don't you think? I know I feel much better about it.

I still don't like 6 and 7. There, as Fnord said, the tiny kicker margin is trivial and probably accounted for by the tiny wheel possibility. So I'd call A6s and A7s pretty much garbage unless on the button or some non-card factor promotes them. And I'd call A5 and below Somewhat More Interesting Garbage (SMIG)