Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

I'm so fucking frustrated. I recently switched to ring from sngs, and am losing $$ at it. I feel like it's variance, but I'm really starting to doubt myself. If it's variance, that's fine, but I haven't been been a winner at ring for consistently long enough like a lot of you, to know for sure if it's just bad cards, or if I'm somehow playing wrong.

My PT stats over 3500 hands (yes, I realize it's not much) have me labeled TA--by way of a 6max criteria chart I imported from the PT forums. My VPIP is 24 and my PF raising is 15. Do these numbers matter? Is it possible to play a winning style, or at least a numerically winning style, and be losing money in some other way?

I would be happy to post more numbers for review, if anyone can critique them for me. Please help, I'm going nuts.

What stakes are you playing?

play more tables.

Originally Posted by Warpe

What stakes are you playing?

50NL I believe.

play more tables.

I've been 3 and 4 tabling trying to clear the Party reload bonuses and a gigantic Bodog RAF bonus I have. It has not seemed to help.

And, yes, 50NL. I had such high hopes to one day play 100--they seem like silly youthful dreams now...

You probably need to set/nutcamp more and get away from TPTK/GK and 2 pair more often (he can't POSSIBLY have a set...er...um...well, it didn't look like he did...). 3 and 4 tabling you might not be getting the reads you should either. Try 2 tabling for a while. And post some (losing) hands.

You probably need to set/nutcamp more

Quite possibly. Is 24/15 too aggro for low stakes? That's something I've been wondering.

and get away from TPTK/GK and 2 pair more often

Honestly, I really don't have a problem getting away from TP. Well, except for times like today when I had already eaten such a huge shit sandwich that I pushed my TPTK out of pure frustration. Ok, there's that, but normally, I really don't do it--I will almost always lay down TPTK I Iseven to a minraise.

3 and 4 tabling you might not be getting the reads you should either.

Without question, but I usually one table.

And post some (losing) hands.

I should and will do that more. Meanwhile, are there any huge leaks that can be identified by just looking at the numbers?

Let me check my db stats for 25-50NL.

Is it possible to play a winning style, or at least a numerically winning style, and be losing money in some other way?

playing poorly post-flop?

sam, I think you should be more worried about breaking down hands as opposed to numbers.

fwiw, I think you are playing too loose and raising too many hands preflop for a player of your experience.

17/11 @ 6 max ftw.

13 ptBB/100 over 13k hands, damn im sick.

playing poorly post-flop?

Ok, entirely possible. Are there any red flags you can check for in PT?

sam, I think you should be more worried about breaking down hands as opposed to numbers.

fwiw, I think you are playing too loose and raising too many hands preflop for a player of your experience.

You think 24/15 is too loose at 6max? Would I be better served by playing like 6max was full ring in terms of the hands I play PF?

17/11 @ 6 max ftw.
13 ptBB/100 over 13k hands, damn im sick.

You might even be better than Moneymaker. But anyway, are you saying that 17/11 would be a more desirable range to be aiming for?

It certainly simplifies post-flop play against simple opponents.

Originally Posted by Lukie

fwiw, I think you are playing too loose and raising too many hands preflop for a player of your experience.

Let's see where you're raising and with what. Post a session?

ok--next time I play I'll post a representative sesh.

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

17/11 @ 6 max ftw.

I have similar stats when I play 6-max.

Ok, entirely possible. Are there any red flags you can check for in PT?

I'm nowhere close to being a PT expert and I wouldn't be able to give you good advice here. But I think you need to analyze situations yourselves, and post hands instead of trying to rely on some statistical data. You are still new to NL ring, and post-flop skill comes with practice and experience.

You think 24/15 is too loose at 6max? Would I be better served by playing like 6max was full ring in terms of the hands I play PF?

I don't think this is too loose. There are very successful high stakes players that run at 30/20 or higher.

I think it's too loose for a player of your experience though, yes. Playing tighter preflop will help you avoid tougher and more marginal situations post-flop.

Let's see where you're raising and with what. Post a session?

Sure thing, after I change my screenname and all my online aliases.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Let's see where you're raising and with what. Post a session?

Sure thing, after I change my screenname and all my online aliases.

I meant sam... ...but one with you playing Fnord would be cool to see

here's a cool hand:

POKERSTARS GAME #4079308340: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/02/24 - 01:43:26 (ET)
Table 'Dziban III' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Cappy 33 ($15.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Sykoh ($24 in chips)
Seat 3: SEANSCRAN ($106.70 in chips)
Seat 5: planx314 ($19 in chips)
Seat 6: HenryFnord ($101.55 in chips)
Seat 7: Lukieplaya ($139.40 in chips)
Seat 8: Hustler12125 ($53.60 in chips)
Seat 9: scorpio70 ($44 in chips)
Hustler12125: posts small blind $0.50
scorpio70: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [3s 2s]
Cappy 33: folds
Sykoh: folds
SEANSCRAN: folds
planx314: folds
HenryFnord: raises $2 to $3
Lukieplaya: calls $3
Hustler12125: calls $2.50
scorpio70: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [Kh 3h 2c]
Hustler12125: checks
scorpio70: checks
HenryFnord: checks
Lukieplaya: bets $10
Hustler12125: folds
scorpio70: calls $10
HenryFnord: calls $10
*** TURN *** [Kh 3h 2c] [2d]
scorpio70: checks
HoboJaws joins the table at seat #4
Cappy 33 said, "well played"
HenryFnord: bets $20
Lukieplaya: raises $106.40 to $126.40 and is all-in
scorpio70: folds
HenryFnord: folds
Lukieplaya collected $79 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $82 | Rake $3
Board [Kh 3h 2c 2d]
Seat 1: Cappy 33 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Sykoh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: SEANSCRAN folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: planx314 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: HenryFnord folded on the Turn
Seat 7: Lukieplaya (button) collected ($79)
Seat 8: Hustler12125 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: scorpio70 (big blind) folded on the Turn

I recently switched to ring from sngs, and am losing $$ at it

Stop getting all in on top pair.
Give the passive fish respect when he raises you. Top pair no goot!

Do you only play 6-max? Have you considered playing full ring? It's much easier to multi-table than 6-max.

I don't know PT numbers and I hate six-max. But I was an SnG player switching to ring games too. The most important differences I noticed was, it takes more patience to wait for a starting hand. And post flop play is way more important.

With all the time in the world people are generally willing to wait until they hit the nuts until they go all-in. Meanwhile in SnGs people often will push all in with TPTK. Basically I had to learn to fold more. As people's hands aren't as easy to read in a tournament, you might be getting tricked quite often too. People will rarely raise with suited connectors in later stages of a tourney, but people are always changing things up in a ring game.

Looking back I dunno if any of that makes sense, but there's some advice in there somewhere...

I'm tired.

VPIP of 24 and PF of 15 is too loose IMO for SNG's considering that you want to play extremely tight at this beginning of the game. My advice is probably worth jack shit though considering that I am full ringer.

Originally Posted by Lodogg

VPIP of 24 and PF of 15 is too loose IMO for SNG's considering that you want to play extremely tight at this beginning of the game. My advice is probably worth jack shit though considering that I am full ringer.

I think those #'s apply to his ring game experience so far.

Stop getting all in on top pair.
Give the passive fish respect when he raises you. Top pair no goot!

I know, I know. I really don't do that. I never push w/ TPTK.

I think those #'s apply to his ring game experience so far.

Yes, I'm talking about 50NL 6max, primarily.

I think Lukie and Trip might be right about me being too aggro for the level I'm at and my experience level. I'll post some hands soon...

I have recently started to dabble more in NL ring coming from a SNG background. I went through similar problems. a few things i picked up: choose your table, and your seat carefully. If you sit down and find that you dont like the way its playing, get up and go. you will save a lot of frustration that way. try starting off a little lower, at 25NL until you get used to the changes in style, both yours and your opponents. start off with 1, or 2 at the most tables until you have had time to get acclimated. and just remember to trust your instincts and think through your plays and your opponents plays and it will all come together. these players are still just as bad as the ones from the SNG's, it just comes out in different ways.

Dudez--I have posted some HHs in the HH forum. Please go over there and tell me what a faggot I am. K, thx.

What are good stats for full ring?

I hope you're not asking me--I have no idea. If anyone else has any further insight into my original question, i.e. what are some general things to look for in PT, please share.

samsonite, variance is a bitch in 6 max games, just make sure you have the bankroll and keep playing and asking questions

Originally Posted by pgil

If you sit down and find that you dont like the way its playing, get up and go. you will save a lot of frustration that way.

Can you do that? I never can. Backing away from a challenge is too hard for me. Another thing is that getting in the habit of switching tables means you're at a risk to use the "bad table" as an excuse for your bad play.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Can you do that? I never can. Backing away from a challenge is too hard for me. Another thing is that getting in the habit of switching tables means you're at a risk to use the "bad table" as an excuse for your bad play.

actually, I find it removes that excuse entirely since I have taken the time to find a table that suits me and that I want to play at. Now there are no excuses for bad play other than bad play.

Well how do you select your tables? At unibet, the only parameters shown are average pot and % of people seeing the flop. I go with highest pot and amongst those select for highest % of seeing the flop - iow, I want tables with loose aggressives. But if the table turns out to be tough anyway, I can't make myself leave. It's in my head a learning experience but also prohibits me from getting in the habit of taking the easy way out;

Originally Posted by jackvance

. Backing away from a challenge is too hard for me.

thats probably not a bad thing if you have a good bankroll and are still learning alot about the game

Originally Posted by gabe

thats probably not a bad thing if you have a good bankroll and are still learning alot about the game

Problem is ofcourse to identify when you should "stop learning" :P. I think it's mostly a personality thing. I am not even close to having a good BR but I take a lot of losses for the learning experience..

by good BR i meant you can afford dropping a buyin or 2 and beable chalk it up to learning expenses

I respect where you're coming from, Jack, but I'm definitely of the "I'll play a retarded child for money" school of table selection

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

I respect where you're coming from, Jack, but I'm definitely of the "I'll play a retarded child for money" school of table selection

Ugh I honestly mean it when I say I wish I was like that. Like today there was a big stack at the table who I "knew" I could outplay (but he kept folding, waiting for the nuts) and taking money from the idiots around was kinda like "meh whatever" b/c I wanted *his* money. I fear that's a major problem (leak) in my game though.

Couple days ago I taught some friends about poker, and they were really enthousiastic about it and immediately wanted to play for money. It totally felt like taking candy from a baby so I simply said no.

I probably need a mentality overhaul on this though.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

I respect where you're coming from, Jack, but I'm definitely of the "I'll play a retarded child for money" school of table selection

Ugh I honestly mean it when I say I wish I was like that. Like today there was a big stack at the table who I "knew" I could outplay (but he kept folding, waiting for the nuts) and taking money from the idiots around was kinda like "meh whatever" b/c I wanted *his* money. I fear that's a major problem (leak) in my game though.

Couple days ago I taught some friends about poker, and they were really enthousiastic about it and immediately wanted to play for money. It totally felt like taking candy from a baby so I simply said no.

I probably need a mentality overhaul on this though.

Playing people better than you is good practice, but the money from this game comes from people who are worse than you. You have to get used to it.

I made the same switch in January, I went through the same thing. You don't see as many sick calls in ring games as you do in tournaments. I think that this is because the only part of the tournament when the stacks are 100 Bs is the first round. The Increasing blinds force players to open up their play and do things they would never do in a ring game. I thing the average ring game player plays alot better than the average SnG player. It took me a while to get the hang of it but I love it now, I play 2000 hands a day and I win on my good days, and break even on my bad days ( which are getting few and far between ). I find that the constant deep stack compared to the blinds takes alot of the luck out of the game. Give it some time, you'll never want to go back to SnGs. Good Luck!

Thanks, Ace.

There is no such thing as ideal statistics regarding pre flop raising %. The only ideal statistics I can think of would be 'wins at showdown 100%' and 'went to showdown 100%'.

You can be a very sucessful player by min raising preflop every single hand, raising 0% of hands, or playing like a calling station. The only stats you should be worried about are your profit stats, and the best way to maximize those are to analize hand by hand. Post some here and we'll tear it up like no tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Krieg1984

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

I respect where you're coming from, Jack, but I'm definitely of the "I'll play a retarded child for money" school of table selection

Ugh I honestly mean it when I say I wish I was like that. Like today there was a big stack at the table who I "knew" I could outplay (but he kept folding, waiting for the nuts) and taking money from the idiots around was kinda like "meh whatever" b/c I wanted *his* money. I fear that's a major problem (leak) in my game though.

Couple days ago I taught some friends about poker, and they were really enthousiastic about it and immediately wanted to play for money. It totally felt like taking candy from a baby so I simply said no.

I probably need a mentality overhaul on this though.

Playing people better than you is good practice, but the money from this game comes from people who are worse than you. You have to get used to it.

jack--- you taught your friends nothing, if you took their money then you would have taught them something
also plan on losing money if yu don't play people worse than you

sam --- where can i find some retared children to play against?
i also switched from SnG's to NL ring a short while ago and found that playing tight like i did in the first round of a SnG worked for my full ring game at both the $10NL and $25NL tables

good luck
flomo

Originally Posted by flomo

jack--- you taught your friends nothing, if you took their money then you would have taught them something

Quite the contrary. I taught them that there is such a thing as Texas Holdem where you get two pocket cards and then there's a community flop, turn and river. I also taught them a flush is higher than a straight, common odds for drawing, a "gutshot" (they loved that one, for some reason), etc.

The "losing money" or "your decisions weigh" lesson I felt was inappropriate here. Tomorrow I'll probably be playing again with them, and I plan to suggest playing for a tiny amount of money.

also plan on losing money if yu don't play people worse than you

I think you misunderstood. I don't seek out better players, I seek out worse players just like everyone. I however up to present cannot make myself back down from a challenge - ie if the table turns out to play hard despite my table selection, a good player is around, maybe with position on me even, etc.