6max/lagg.. strategy

so i just moved up to 6max .25/.50 last week, and for the first week went fine.. now 2 days into week 2, and i've hit a shit run. But the question is am i actually screwing up.. I'm trying to move over to lagg rather than tagg.. in games that suit it.. but i dont quite know exactly what i should be doing. So before i go on and play much more i thought i'd check on whether i'm on a streak or playing like an idiot.
So can anyone just post describing their strategy for low stakes 6 max games?

Sure, Ill share my low stakes NL short handed strategy. If anyone else has comments or suggestions on it, I'd be happy to listen.

I've been a ring game player for a few months, and only recently with my move up 100NL have I switched to short handed. I beleive there is more money to be made short handed, as the hands go faster, allowing you to see more cards, as well as the fact that players seem to be much worse at 6 max (has anyone else observed this?).

When I first sit down at a 6 max table, I try to pretend that I'm at a ring table where the first 4 players folded. This means I'm in "camping mode" just like I would be at any regular NL ring game. Only on the button and cutoff am I more liberal with my hand selection, sometimes playing suited connectors and marjinal broadway hands like AJ, AT, KJ, KTs, etc. While I am playing tight, fit or fold poker, I try to get a good handle on the table's style, i.e. are they loose and agressive, tight, passive calling stations, do they seem sharky, etc?

Then, if the table environment permits, after establishing myself as a tight, conservative player to my opponents, I switch to into lagg. This switch is mostly dependent on if I feel like Ill be able to push the table off hands. I start raising suited and unsuited connectors, 1-gappers, mid pocket pairs, some more marginal broadway hands, and occasionally suited or unsuited 2-gappers and randomly complete garbage from any position if I think I can buy the button for the round, and following up with continuation bets and raises if I feel my opponents holdings are weak.

I've found that playing sucessful NL 6 max is all about paying attention to table texture. If I find that my lagg play is causing other people to make big mistakes like drawing without odds or calling river bets with underpockets or mid pair, then I will continue in this fashion. If people start coming over the top of my bets or going all in randomly out of frustration, then I go back into semi-camping mode and wait for them to try to aggro me out of a hand at the rong time.

And If I dont feel I can beat the competition at a table (usually if there is another good, agressive player has position on me for more than half the hands) then I leave immediately.

It's a wonder what kind of mistakes good lagg play can induce from weak players. They will start coming over the top of you with mid pair, flush draws, and all sorts of garbage. Thats when you know you have them.

Ya it all depends on the average table aggression. On a tight aggressive table I spoil my image and then tighten up. I sit down, bluff their pants off (while showing them my bad cards), and then destack them with a monster.

It's tricky because you need good reads. Basically you set a trend of big bets. It's like introducing a pet to something new. You stick their nose in it, and then they want to get involved. If you can go over the top of a couple people for 10 bucks and make them fold the winning hand (even though their winning hand isn't strong... that's key), then you might as well be sitting with ATM machines.

At first you get slaughtered trying this. I did, because I was bluffing into hands that wouldn't fold. It takes practice. The thing about being the new guy at the table, is that you get folds easier based on uncertainty about you.

This is what I do a lot because 6max 25NL isn't as fishy on the site I play. You have to instigate good action.

When it comes to your concept Undermindsk of playing tight first and then loose, I don't like giving players that much credit who are likely only playing the cards. In other words, when you bluff them and then camp, you appeal to their emotions (They are fed up wth being bluffed). That's a universal concept that works on every level player. If you do the opposite it's a different animal. If you camp and then bluff them, you're appealing to their intelligence, or assuming they will peg you as tight. Most won't pay attention. You have to be at a real smart table to make that work.

Whatever works for you is ok Undermindsk, but it just appears to me you're giving some people too much credit flipping their reads (possibly non existent) instead of their emotions (a constant).

I think I'd rather set up big pots for myself than small ones.

Acutally, its more of a defense mechanisim for me personally. I hate getting into a big hand with a complete calling station knowing I have a solid read on his weak holdings and trying to push him out, only to have him show down third pair and take a large portion of my chips. The tight -> loose thing is mostly to study them and make sure that they acutally might concider folding a better hand to my agression. Perhaps as I become more expirenced at 6 max, I will be able to tell this earlier.

thanks, thats some great info guys.. particular to expand on what you sent me before rondavu..

"At first you get slaughtered trying this. I did, because I was bluffing into hands that wouldn't fold. It takes practice."

I think this is exactly what happened to me, though i've made a number of good moves, there has been more ocassions than i would like where i just get owned.

Though i think i am already getting better at it.. even after only a short time at 6 max.

would it be true you think that when learning lagg one should have a larger bankroll than normal to allow for these errors?

incidently, my downswing appears to have subsided for the moment

Sometimes I'm in no mood to be manipulative. If the tables are tight I just log off in that case, but mostly you can just camp at 25NL and get payed if you're a patient multi tabler.

If you want to know whether someone will fold to your aggression, then sometimes it's just a matter of paying attention to what they call down with against the other players at the table. If you see them call down with third pair against CharlieHustle to your left, then maybe it's not a good idea to bluff that guy.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

If you see them call down with third pair against CharlieHustle to your left, then maybe it's not a good idea to bluff that guy.

haha yeh i only made that mistake once.. he called with a gutshot and won the showdown with high card

BigandRich, make no mistake about it. LAGG can be very dangerous. I've sat at a table and tried to set up eventual tight with some opening loose image molding, and I forgot I was sitting with someone who still thinks I'm loose from last night. "Oh look, I already molded you damn it!" Of course having someone think you're always loose when you're in a loose molding mode can bite your ass, and it did instantly. He remembered me, camped me and took a big chunk off me when I tried to bluff his weakness in a hand.

It's tough. When I first started spreading my LAGG wings I came real close to busting out a couple times. The only thing that saved me was the rakeback on Friday. The thing is you can camp and make good money, but if you're into improving yourself, then you need to experiment. You're at 25NL right now BIG, but wait until you play at the 200NL table. It's real Laggy. You have to roll with it to survive. Might as well figure it out now.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

It's tough. When I first started spreading my LAGG wings I came real close to busting out a couple times. The only thing that saved me was the rakeback on Friday. The thing is you can camp and make good money, but if you're into improving yourself, then you need to experiment. You're at 25NL right now BIG, but wait until you play at the 200NL table. It's real Laggy. You have to roll with it to survive. Might as well figure it out now.

Yeh, i'm think i'm gonna do that with the 6max tables, and also hang around camping at the full rings, and hopefully i should maintain/increase my roll... if i drop back to a pathetic little bankroll then i'll move down and try again in a months time. I'm keeping 500 as my mark to play the 25 tables, and so i moved up from there 9 days ago.. and even though i had a swing and made some errors i'm up 170 in that time.

Yes, good lagg is extremely difficult to play. I have had some nasty swings at 100NL. As you can see in my sig, I'm playing way overBRed for 100NL so I can take these swings in stride and not lose confidence and continue to improve my 6max game without worrying about the money too much (my eventual goal is to take my LAGG play to NL100 full ring). I can confidently say that by far my biggest chip leak is misreading people for weakness and trying to push them off a hand when they have a monster. You have to be careful that you dont go on tilt because a tilting lagger can lose ALOT of money real fast. But Rondavu is totally right. Being interested in learning lagg is really what will make you a better poker player who is ready to take on higher limits. I believe that good lagg play will yeild a much higher bb/100 payout than tagg will. After all, you cannot hang out at 25NL and prey on the fish forever =).

so if you have a swing, how much would you normally to lose? 1 table stake, 2? 3? my tagg swings were minimal.. and i would be pretty stressed if i lost more than 1 buy in... losing sessions were quite rare. So as laggs, how many winning sessions do you guys have for 1 losing session, on average? and how much would you lose in that session?

as well as the fact that players seem to be much worse at 6 max (has anyone else observed this?).

1. Yes. i play there!
2. this is how i made most of my br.

By the way I stole that pot from you the other night BIG. You raised my big blind, I called. Flop came out A99. You bet, and I raised you. You said "Not against you" and folded. I only mention it so you can understand why I played the hand that way...

The first thing I noticed is that your continuation was tentatively small compared to the pot. Right then I knew I had enough leverage to move you off the pot because additional elements were present...

When you have position on someone, and the board is beating them (paired nines), then you take advantage of reverse implied odds. That is to say it becomes undesirable for you to imagine how much I'll make you pay to show down through two more streets if I do have the 9, and you just want to find out. Of course I would do the same if I held a 9. In that case I hope the ace good kicker pays me off. Either way you showed weakness and I had position with a paired board. It was an obvious move.

I'm the type of player that is going to push you around until you force me to respect you. If I feel I can take you off hands, then I'm going to slowly drain your stack over time by playing position and the board against you. Especially if you show weakness. I say this because I'm not the only one who will do this to you.

You're going to get tested by people. They are going to ask you questions with good sized raises to your flop bets and continuations. Sometimes you have to reraise a fair amount with an answer if you are out of position holding a hand that might be ahead.

This is how I tilt people. I force them to play back at me and then tighten up on them.

Please remember that you need to mix up your betting. Don't allow people to know that a less than pot bet equals postflop weakness. Set traps. Bet like your drawing when you're made if there's only one draw out there and 3 or less people in. bet like you're made when you're drawing when you have position to take it down or get payed off when you complete a draw.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

This is how I tilt people. I force them to play back at me and then tighten up on them.

AKA Loose Aggressive them until they have to become Loose Passive and then switch over to Tight Passive once you notice them switch.

This is a good post by SmackinYaUp & DaleCooper, on their starting hand selection for 6-max ring games.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...728&highlight=

Originally Posted by Rondavu

By the way I stole that pot from you the other night BIG. You raised my big blind, I called. Flop came out A99. You bet, and I raised you. You said "Not against you" and folded. I only mention it so you can understand why I played the hand that way...

yeh i was pretty sure you were stealing.. but i knew with flop bet how i'd fucked up.. and i'd given you that info, where as i had no read on you at all.. and i didnt want to get involved.. the flop didnt have an A though, unless my memory has gone worse than before.. i had overcards AQ i think..

I think thats a leak for me at the moment.. my continuations arent strong enough and i'm getting called too often

Originally Posted by BIGandRICH

Originally Posted by Rondavu

By the way I stole that pot from you the other night BIG. You raised my big blind, I called. Flop came out A99. You bet, and I raised you. You said "Not against you" and folded. I only mention it so you can understand why I played the hand that way...

yeh i was pretty sure you were stealing.. but i knew with flop bet how i'd fucked up.. and i'd given you that info, where as i had no read on you at all.. and i didnt want to get involved.. the flop didnt have an A though, unless my memory has gone worse than before.. i had overcards AQ i think..

I think thats a leak for me at the moment.. my continuations arent strong enough and i'm getting called too often

If you thought he was stealing reraise him and see if he has the nine! Especially good if he paired the other card since he would be afraid of YOU having the third nine.

If you thought he was stealing reraise him and see if he has the nine! Especially good if he paired the other card since he would be afraid of YOU having the third nine.

yes, i did consider that.. it was really a weak play from me.. i was at the end of the session and i just didnt want to get into a biggish pot against someone like rondavu.. I'm not expierienced enough yet to really know when i should/shouldnt push back over, I could just see him pushing straight back over the top of me again and it ruining my session.. so i just left it at that.

Poker is a life-long session.

I don't mind winning a lot of money, continue playing and lose some of that money. Because I know that I might win more or lose some. It doesn't matter what time I do this, whether I continue doing this tomorrow or today...

Originally Posted by iopq

Poker is a life-long session.

I don't mind winning a lot of money, continue playing and lose some of that money. Because I know that I might win more or lose some. It doesn't matter what time I do this, whether I continue doing this tomorrow or today...

Yes this is true.. it is just a personnel preference of mine.. its because of the emotional backlash. I'm not a pro, i dont want to go out into the rest of the day/night in a shitty mood because of a bad beat. If i was living off poker and playing for a regular amount of time every day it would be different.