5NL Vs 2NL

OK firstly....WHAT THE FUCK!!

I was doing really well at 2NL and I got myself rolled for 5NL and felt ready to move up....I have been crushed.

I had a couple of big bad beats but I am down 4BI over 2 days, is that bad or expected?

I am getting raised on the flop a lot which is something I am not used to. I am being 3bet much more and I am finding it much more difficult to steal blinds. I have also found out that TPTK barely ever wins at showdown anymore.

Can someone give me some general tips please for dealing with this? I was generally around 26/24 at 2NL, since I been at 5NL it's more around 12/10 and I am starting to become a nit and completely changing how I play.

How many hands have you played at 2nl? How many have you played since you started winning? These questions may not matter but you need to know if you were running hot or if you were really ready to move up.

How many tables are you playing at 5nl? Whatever that # is I suggest you cut it in half.

You're obviously playing scared so cut that shit out. Play your game. If 5nl has proved to be more aggressive you need to adjust by becoming more aggressive yourself. Remember that your still better than most 5nl regs so make better decisions than them.

Start tables if you aren't already. They will fill up with people sitting on waitlists, usually fish. (Protip, on a 6max table sit at the bottom left seat and fish will naturally sit on your right.)

If your getting murdered just move back down for a while. Don't let your confidence get crushed.

fwiw you're not being played back at too often at all at this stake. yeah, the pool's 'probably' a bit better than 2nl, but just a tiny bit.

Originally Posted by supa

How many hands have you played at 2nl? How many have you played since you started winning? These questions may not matter but you need to know if you were running hot or if you were really ready to move up.

How many tables are you playing at 5nl? Whatever that # is I suggest you cut it in half.

You're obviously playing scared so cut that shit out. Play your game. If 5nl has proved to be more aggressive you need to adjust by becoming more aggressive yourself. Remember that your still better than most 5nl regs so make better decisions than them.

Start tables if you aren't already. They will fill up with people sitting on waitlists, usually fish. (Protip, on a 6max table sit at the bottom left seat and fish will naturally sit on your right.)

If your getting murdered just move back down for a while. Don't let your confidence get crushed.

I have played around 50,000 hands at 2NL and I would say the last 14,500 of those hands was winning poker.

I only ever play 2 tables at a time so that I can concentrate on specific players etc so that really shouldn't be a problem should it?

@Bold - How do I start tables? Thanks for the tip, will try that out.

You can start tables by finding one with 0 players and joining, just like you would for a fuller table.

Also poker is poker, no matter the limit. Some players just make less mistakes than others, and it just so happens that these players become more plentiful as you move up.

You just gotta adapt. You've hit a wall where your current skill level isnt good enough, so learn/post/read/etc to get good enough to climb over that wall.

General questions about these topics arent good enough, (i think ftr DOES have articles on each though). You gotta post hands!

How many hands have you played?

I am getting raised on the flop a lot which is something I am not used to. I am being 3bet much more and I am finding it much more difficult to steal blinds. I have also found out that TPTK barely ever wins at showdown anymore.

Just beware that your perspective can be skewed by a few bad days, keep playing your winning 2NL game and don't try to change things too quickly.

Originally Posted by Hoopy

How many hands have you played?

Just beware that your perspective can be skewed by a few bad days, keep playing your winning 2NL game and don't try to change things too quickly.

I have only played 1,500 hands at 5NL I know that's not a lot but was just concerned with the amount of hands I was losing. I will stick at it but if I lose much more I will have to drop back to 2NL and rebuild my roll.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I am getting raised on the flop a lot

Expected

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I am being 3bet much more

Expected

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I am finding it much more difficult to steal blinds.

Expected

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

TPTK barely ever wins at showdown

Expected

Originally Posted by supa

You're obviously playing scared

Weird, but also expected

You prolly are also being hampered by a lack of data on your new opponents. Amirite?

Your experience sounds exactly like mine. I think that moving up from 2NL is quite likely the toughest jump you'll ever make. Sounds mental, right? But there are 2 reasons for this:

1. It's the first time you've EVER moved up in stakes, so everything is a bit odd, and
2. The 2NL player pool is unlike any other, consisting of either beginners or drunks who you can destroy by just PFR/cBetting

Main thing is:- don't worry. You haven't suddenly lost all your skillz. Keep playing your game, but be aware that you will need to make adjustments (see above), and that your win-rate won't be what is was. Do not deviate from solid BR Management, and move down if you have to - there's no shame in this; it's all part of learning.

The move from 2nl to 5nl can range from quite an eye-opener to pretty smooth. Multiple factors and combinations thereof can affect how it is for a particular individual.

As an admitted simplification, consider these two possibilities - you're a winner at 2nl because you win from the fish and lose back less to the stronger players vs. you win from almost everyone at 2nl.

Moving up is likely to be harder for the first type of player. There aren't as many fish, and they're not quite as bad, plus some of the stronger players are better than their 2nl counterparts. The second type of player is likely to handle these conditions better.

4 BI swings are NOTHING, man. I'm not saying it feels good to drop 4 BI in an session, but I do it on a weekly basis, if not more often. If I count sessions where I don't end the day down 4 BI, but at some point I did swing down 4 BI, then that's probably most sessions.

Anecdote:
Yesterday, I played a double session and lost 4 BI early, including 2 $24.00 pots that I flopped top 2 pair vs. 1) a flopped straight and then 2) a set. I was down 2.5 BI in the first hour, and I didn't make a mistake.

Conclusion:
Playing good and running bad can be a brutal way to start any session. When it happens right when you move up stakes, then it gets you thinking if the players are different or you forgot how to play the pokers.

Rest assured that a solid HH review will tell you that you've played fine, and just ran into the top of their ranges for a while. It happens.

our minds are conditioned to see things we expect or to try and create order and patterns that fit our expectations. Someone (d0zer? can't remember) wrote a great post on that in here quite a while ago, if i find it i;ll link it.

anyway, 2nl and 5nl are a lot less different than you seem to think. Sometimes you move up and simply run into people having aces a few times so, yep, you get 3bet.

here are some pointers for 5nl that also apply at 2nl and 50nl;

raised on flop without big reads - villain probably has an overpair+ or a big draw.
facing a 3bet - villain's range is biased towards QQ+/AK
stealing blinds is less of a free walk - start stealing 2.2x or 2x
tptk doesn't win at showdown much - there is a difference between bet-bet-bet to showdown and bet-check/call-bet/call to showdown. First case and tptk is pretty nutty, second case and you pretty much want to beat top two.

and re 4bi swings. I had two 4bi swings yesterday that only took one hand to happen. Big pot poker ftw etc.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I was down 2.5 BI in the first hour, and I didn't make a mistake.

nah bro, you made at least one mistake in that hour, probably hundreds... flawless poker doesn't exist.

5NL is srs bidness, you have to implement triple and quadruple range merging to beat it cuz of all the regs double and triple range merging. Stay ahead of the meta, stay cool, keep your head in the game, fresh pissjugs, massage girls, etc.

Originally Posted by daven

I had two 4bi swings yesterday that only took one hand to happen. Big pot poker ftw etc.

You lost 8 BI in a single hand!?!



Post that HH!!!!

Originally Posted by daven

nah bro, you made at least one mistake in that hour, probably hundreds... flawless poker doesn't exist.

OK, OK, I concede the point.

Not hundreds, though.

I only get dealt ~200 hands an hour (4 tables of FR @ ~50 hands/hour). I only play ~12% overall, so 24 hands... @ 4 streets per hand (max.)... Usually only a single choice per street... That's 96 opportunities to make a mistake, call it 100... Let's say +/- 50, for nitty pre-flop folds, multi-bet streets, c/f, etc.

That makes 100 +/- 50. Let's assume that my poker decisions run 60/40 to the good. So only ~40% of my decisions were "mistakes".

So roughly 40 +/- 20 mistakes per hour.

So probably not hundreds.

60/40 pretty optimistic methinks.

I know but can't you let a monkey dream of being slightly above average?

I'm taking the afternoon off the tables to study and try to think about 3-betting ranges IP against "common" regs @ 10NL, so for the afternoon, I am running 0 EV, which is better than some afternoons.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

You lost 8 BI in a single hand!?!
Post that HH!!!!

nah, just a couple where i lost 400bb stacks each time.
a flip and a 70-30 all good.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I only get dealt ~200 hands an hour (4 tables of FR @ ~50 hands/hour)

play 5

Feeling intimidated is fine and perfectly natural when you step up a level, but trust me, the difference in skill level is barely discernible. Take confidence from the fact that you've worked hard so far to develop the skills and knowledge to move out of 2nl and keep going at 5nl until good BRM won't allow you to continue. What you'll realise as you move through the levels too is just how important the mental game of poker is, particularly when you go on huge downswings (15BI is my worst).

Re 5nl in particular, I've played quite a bit of 5nl Zoom this month and it's true that ABC is still king, namely:

- pile money into the pot when you have a hand
- slow down/fold if given reason to, no matter if you have tptk (see reasons above)
- double barrel scare cards on the turn
- set mine (since you always have the implied odds)

Other than that, use bet sizing as a good barometer of hand strength.

Originally Posted by daven

play 5

Bovada has a limit of 4 tables.

I have found that 2nl and 5nl online play very similar but the quality of player goes up quite a bit. Live this is even, for me, more pronounced. But live I see a lot more players making the move BEFORE they are really ready. 5nl players are significantly more SOBER. I played 2nl a long time live before I went to the 5nl. Now I cannot or at least not psychologically go back. The play live at 2 nl is too lose and one gets chased a lot like it's limit. I do it when no 5nl tables are open but basically internally I hate it, so I play bad or find myself ul. But in any case ABC is the rule.

Originally Posted by FlowJoe

I have found that 2nl and 5nl online play very similar but the quality of player goes up quite a bit. Live this is even, for me, more pronounced. But live I see a lot more players making the move BEFORE they are really ready. 5nl players are significantly more SOBER. I played 2nl a long time live before I went to the 5nl. Now I cannot or at least not psychologically go back. The play live at 2 nl is too lose and one gets chased a lot like it's limit. I do it when no 5nl tables are open but basically internally I hate it, so I play bad or find myself ul. But in any case ABC is the rule.

I have the same issue on Bovada at 10NL on Friday nights. It seems like everyone's drunk and trying to out-bluff each other, which completely messes up my reads, and turns a normally TAG game against me. It's like playing in a room of maniac calling stations who just want to throw their money in the pot and see which way it goes.

I know that there's a HUGE amount of money to be had on these tables, but I haven't found the balance between whether I should just call down with middle pair, or completely nit up on Friday nights.

Which brings up another thought for the OP. You might want to watch for what day is more similar to your previous level, and get your feet wet there, before branching out. There's a huge difference between playing on a Wed at 9 AM, and playing on a Friday at 9 PM, at least where I play.