4NL - Open Ended Straight Flush Draw

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (8 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($4.49)
SB ($6.11)
Hero (BB) ($4)
UTG ($4.88)
UTG+1 ($2) (14/10 over 1600 hands)
MP1 ($3.94) (13/2 over 55 hands)
MP2 ($6.28)
CO ($3.84)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9, 8
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.08, MP1 calls $0.08, 3 folds, SB calls $0.06, Hero calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.32) 7, 3, 10 (4 players)

SB checks, Hero??

Anything known about opponents?

I would probably lead/call the flop and check/evaluate the turn when raised. You've got a ton of equity here with 15 outs so you want to start building this pot, and leading 4 way looks hella strong so you'll be taking it down really often.

But I'm not a FR player, so may well be totally wrong.

UTG+1 is 14/10 over 1600 hands. MP1 is 13/2 over 55 hands. SB is unknown..

Three words that go through my mind on this flop... bet, raise, jam.

This is a great flop for you and you should be looking to get the money in on the flop. The best way imo is to bet here, about $0.24 and hope you get raised (I'd say there's a good chance of that here, or at least a good chance of getting called down when you hit).

If the turn is a brick, lead half pot and c/f brick rivers.

i'd definitely start by leading out

Flop: ($0.32) 7, 3, 10 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.22, UTG+1 calls $0.22, MP1 raises to $0.64, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.42, 1 fold

Turn: ($1.82) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $1.22, Hero raises to $3.28 (All-In), MP1 calls $2 (All-In)

River: ($8.26) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $8.26 | Rake: $0.55


Is it a mistake to check raise all in on the turn here? What is the correct line of play here after being raised on the flop? Jam it in on the flop?

personally i just shove over the flop raise even though his range is probably strong because we do reasonably well vs just about anything he can have and we lose 1/2 of that equity on 70% of turn cards.

Originally Posted by maverick007

Is it a mistake to check raise all in on the turn here?

Yeah, it's kind of gross - I did just the same thing myself recently, and I hate it. When the turn misses for you, you are in a horrid spot - your hand is almost to good to fold, but you hate to call with it, and shoving isn't much better at that point.

As RPM said, shove the flop.

I'm a maniac on the flop with these draws, but I slow down on the turn when I miss, for one simple reason... we have half the equity we had on the flop.

At the flop, when we get raised, there's $1.40 of dead money before we act. That dead money makes shoving profitable, we don't need 50% equity. And if we have any fold equity (he might bluff raise flop) this just increases our overall winrate. But we don't need him to have bluffs, because if we have 45% equity, and $1.40 dead money, well you do the maths. If we're called 100%, we still win money. If villain folds, we just won a decent pot with nine high.

Shoving flop is beautiful because we like villain calling or folding. Both make us money.

You have nearly the same equity on both streets (~0.7% more on the turn). It is mathematically incorrect to count your equity on both streets unless the betting is closed (i.e. all-in on the flop). Raising to get it all in on the flop is correct, since you are the favorite to win if you do.
Failing to get it in on the flop, you are now NOT all in with only 1 card to come... now you're ~33% to catch your draw (with 15 outs OESFD), and should bet accordingly (PSB).

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

You have nearly the same equity on both streets (~0.7% more on the turn). It is mathematically incorrect to count your equity on both streets unless the betting is closed

You're right, but I'm talking about getting stacks in. Getting stack in on flop compared to turn, this is where we have twice the equity.

I'm shoving over this flop raise. If he flat calls my initial bet, well I'm not very committed so I can reassess turn with half the equity I had compared to if he raised me on the flop.

If he raises me on the flop, my entire equity is realised by one simple shove.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Failing to get it in on the flop, you are now NOT all in with only 1 card to come... now you're ~33% to catch your draw (with 15 outs OESFD), and should bet accordingly (PSB).

I think betting the turn here might actually be bad - we're basically turning our hand into a bluff. We still have a fuckton of equity that we want to realise, and we are priced in unless villain makes a big overbet.

I wonder whether, when the action goes such that we don't manage to get it in on the flop, we're better off c/c turn on this kind of board planning to c/f river if we brick.

On a better board for bluffing, I prefer just firing all 3 streets regardless of whether we make a hand or not.

Thoughts?

I really really need to understand more about equity and assigning hand ranges to villains. This is a huge sticking point in my game at the moment. I've read about equity and hand ranges, but the concepts are just not clear in my head and also how do I use it in the game?

Could anyone please share some articles or pointers that were helpful to you to get a better understanding of equity and how to use it in the game??

Originally Posted by maverick007

I really really need to understand more about equity and assigning hand ranges to villains. This is a huge sticking point in my game at the moment. I've read about equity and hand ranges, but the concepts are just not clear in my head and also how do I use it in the game?

Could anyone please share some articles or pointers that were helpful to you to get a better understanding of equity and how to use it in the game??

Download PokerStrategy.com equilab and pokerstove (both are free) and play with them - both let you put in either two hands and (optionally) a board (either just the flop, or a flop+turn) then calculate what equity they both have. Alternatively, you can put in ranges for both players rather than a hand, or a mixture (your hand vs a range), and calculate equity that way. Pokerstove is simpler, equilab lets you look at how ranges hit different boards in more depth - you just have to start playing with them really and experiment, and do some googling about equity, g-bucks, sklansky dollars etc.

Thanks for the info. I've downloaded both of them now. Will play around and see how it works!