30k Stats Checkup at 10nl FR

So here are my stats. I really need to work on stopping the non-showdown spewege that is going on. Also maybe I should play more hands from the button? This 8k breakeven stretch is really getting to me. Any help would be appreciated.

You seem like you have a solid base upon which to build. My suggestions are:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...01-t66573.html
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...rs-t66631.html

nh sir!

Basic Stats
not much to criticise here, except I think you're completing/calling from the SB too often. When it comes to you in the sb, look at your cards and ask if you would be playing them from the button. If not, then fold. Aggression looks good on every street.

position looks very nice - apart from the small blind.
Maybe try being a little tighter UTG & UTG+1.
Also a little looser/more aggressive from CO and button - it's ok to raise after a limper or two! and the occasional 3-bet is good for the soul..

everything else looks good. Very nice. You're good to move up to 25nl when you feel happily rolled for it.

read those articles that spoon linked for ya. FWIW, I think that game you have going on can win up to 100nl - as long as you're 3-betting some (and maybe even if you're not). Keep winning, move up as bankroll and confidence dictate.

So I read both of those articles spoon. The second one was more helpful, because I do steal blinds (although probably not enough). I really feel most of my problem is post flop. Like when to cbet, when to fold and all that. I'll probably post some hands later because I am in the middle of something right now.

Originally Posted by daven

not much to criticise here, except I think you're completing/calling from the SB too often. When it comes to you in the sb, look at your cards and ask if you would be playing them from the button. If not, then fold.

This sounds like a really interesting approach. I'm not crazy about my own sb play, so this is something I'll consider for sure.

stop playing full ring and start playing poker. full ring is nitsville. i cant believe 10NL has become so rocky that 14/10/4 only generates a 3.5/100. just two years ago a crappy 20/10/2 could pull a 10+/100 w/ no stress.

i looked the other day and was hard-pressed to find a table running over 33% vpip. damned frist.

how do you guys not shoot yourselves from the boredom?

Originally Posted by animal_chin

So I read both of those articles spoon. The second one was more helpful, because I do steal blinds (although probably not enough). I really feel most of my problem is post flop. Like when to cbet, when to fold and all that. I'll probably post some hands later because I am in the middle of something right now.

Be very very careful of assuming you're doing something right just because you're doing it. Opening up your steal range a bit is really easy free money.

Also, the beginning of the answer to a lot of your post-flop concerns probably lie in the basics. Instead of asking when you should continuation bet, consider what reasons you would ever bet in the first place, for example. The same goes for folding, raising, and everything in all spots.

Originally Posted by Chopper

stop playing full ring and start playing poker. full ring is nitsville. i cant believe 10NL has become so rocky that 14/10/4 only generates a 3.5/100. just two years ago a crappy 20/10/2 could pull a 10+/100 w/ no stress.

i looked the other day and was hard-pressed to find a table running over 33% vpip. damned frist.

how do you guys not shoot yourselves from the boredom?

We don't get bored because we lay the responsibility of getting a higher win-rate on our own shoulders instead of those of our opponents. Table selection is one thing, but running away from a game because people don't hand you money is a bad excuse for running away.

Suggesting that one particular set of stats (here you cite 14/10/4) as generating a specific win-rate is rather silly. Not everyone with stats that come out as 14/10/4 play equally.

Also, a year ago nobody could pull over 10 ptbb/100 at 10nl without stress, especially a "crappy 20/10/2". Four years ago, sure, but not in 2007 on a main site.

I looked at the FTP tables and I see 44, 45, bunch of 36 or 37 tables. I make more than 3.5/100 for sure running 14/10/3.5 or something

it's not preflop skills that matter, it's post-flop

Originally Posted by Chopper

stop playing full ring and start playing poker.

God why does everyone say this? Sure you don't have to adjust as much at first but that just means you can be out of line for longer before people notice and then you have to adjust when they change their game... You know, like... playing poker, thinking etc.

You can robotically grind out lots of tables in FR without adjusting much to anybody. You may think that is a bad thing but for a beginner or someone playing micros I would say learning a solid ABC game is a good foundation, then you can start seeing how to exploit individuals to the max.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

We don't get bored because we lay the responsibility of getting a higher win-rate on our own shoulders instead of those of our opponents. Table selection is one thing, but running away from a game because people don't hand you money is a bad excuse for running away.

I'd say it's a great excuse to run away. If my opponents are not sufficiently bad, then there's no way I am going to beat it for a good rate.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

We don't get bored because we lay the responsibility of getting a higher win-rate on our own shoulders instead of those of our opponents. Table selection is one thing, but running away from a game because people don't hand you money is a bad excuse for running away.

I'd say it's a great excuse to run away. If I am not sufficiently good, then there's no way I am going to beat it for a good rate.

Originally Posted by iopq

I looked at the FTP tables and I see 44, 45, bunch of 36 or 37 tables. I make more than 3.5/100 for sure running 14/10/3.5 or something

it's not preflop skills that matter, it's post-flop

This is wrong, pre-flop skills are the most important by far, it's just that past a certain level everyone has them so you need to not suck post-flop to beat the games. Tables like the ones you mentioned can be crushed by just playing tight and not making huge pre-flop mistakes.

The idea that pre-flop skills "don't matter" is hysterical.

Originally Posted by Chopper

how do you guys not shoot yourselves from the boredom?

By playing more tables.

Edit: Nevermind.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by iopq

I looked at the FTP tables and I see 44, 45, bunch of 36 or 37 tables. I make more than 3.5/100 for sure running 14/10/3.5 or something

it's not preflop skills that matter, it's post-flop

This is wrong, pre-flop skills are the most important by far, it's just that past a certain level everyone has them so you need to not suck post-flop to beat the games. Tables like the ones you mentioned can be crushed by just playing tight and not making huge pre-flop mistakes.

The idea that pre-flop skills "don't matter" is hysterical.

I mean there is no difference between running 17/13 preflop stats or 12/7
Your winrate is fully dependent on your hand reading after that point

Sure, you can be a 2 ptBB winner by simply playing tight
But to be CRUSHING those stakes you need to be able to read your opponents like a book

I don't mean "you can play 80/3 and still be a winner" I mean the greatest contribution to your winrate is your post-flop ability

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

We don't get bored because we lay the responsibility of getting a higher win-rate on our own shoulders instead of those of our opponents. Table selection is one thing, but running away from a game because people don't hand you money is a bad excuse for running away.

I'd say it's a great excuse to run away. If I am not sufficiently good, then there's no way I am going to beat it for a good rate.

OK, so say there's a game that a professional can beat for 3.5ptBB/100.
but you can't beat it because you're not that good

but say there's another game that YOU can beat for 5ptBB/100

which one do you play?

Originally Posted by iopq

I mean there is no difference between running 17/13 preflop stats or 12/7

False

Originally Posted by iopq

Your winrate is fully dependent on your hand reading after that point

You sit at a table, decide how you want to play pre-flop, which dictates a style postflop, or visa versa. They're not mutually exclusive, in fact they're quite intertwined.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by iopq

I looked at the FTP tables and I see 44, 45, bunch of 36 or 37 tables. I make more than 3.5/100 for sure running 14/10/3.5 or something

it's not preflop skills that matter, it's post-flop

This is wrong, pre-flop skills are the most important by far, it's just that past a certain level everyone has them so you need to not suck post-flop to beat the games. Tables like the ones you mentioned can be crushed by just playing tight and not making huge pre-flop mistakes.

The idea that pre-flop skills "don't matter" is hysterical.

I mean there is no difference between running 17/13 preflop stats or 12/7
Your winrate is fully dependent on your hand reading after that point

Sure, you can be a 2 ptBB winner by simply playing tight
But to be CRUSHING those stakes you need to be able to read your opponents like a book

I don't mean "you can play 80/3 and still be a winner" I mean the greatest contribution to your winrate is your post-flop ability

I've put the parts I very much disagree with above in bold, while the parts that I only slightly disagree with are in italics. I don't think any of this is worth debate, so I won't debate it.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

We don't get bored because we lay the responsibility of getting a higher win-rate on our own shoulders instead of those of our opponents. Table selection is one thing, but running away from a game because people don't hand you money is a bad excuse for running away.

I'd say it's a great excuse to run away. If I am not sufficiently good, then there's no way I am going to beat it for a good rate.

OK, so say there's a game that a professional can beat for 3.5ptBB/100.
but you can't beat it because you're not that good

but say there's another game that YOU can beat for 5ptBB/100

which one do you play?

You're making the point that you should generally play in games you can beat and avoid games you cannot beat, which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I said to Chopper, "Running away from a game because people don't hand you money is a bad excuse for running away." I wasn't suggesting that running away because you aren't a winning player in the game was a bad thing to do.

Let's suppose in some hypothetical fantasy scenario that Chopper sucks at full ring no-limit hold'em and cannot make minimum wage at any game full ring no-limit hold'em game. Then he would benefit more from improving himself at full ring no-limit hold'em than he would from spending time seeking out people who suck slightly worse than he does.

In a more general sense, everyone complains about the NLHE games getting/being tougher. The current response tends to be people uninterested in the game. The proper response should be that people become concerned with getting better faster than the average player.

If you run 17/13 but you have post-flop skills to back it up, you might win more than a 12/7 because you'll be sacrificing a pre-flop edge to get heads-up with opponents who are bad post-flop.

Originally Posted by iopq

If you run 17/13 but you have post-flop skills to back it up, you might win more than a 12/7 because you'll be sacrificing a pre-flop edge to get heads-up with opponents who are bad post-flop.

wtf pre-flop edge are you sacrificing?!?

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

The proper response should be that people become concerned with getting better faster than the average player.

QFT

Originally Posted by iopq

If you run 17/13 but you have post-flop skills to back it up, you might win more than a 12/7 because you'll be sacrificing a pre-flop edge to get heads-up with opponents who are bad post-flop.

The 17/13 doesn't have to give up value pre-flop in order to gain it back later when opponents play bad post-flop because there are enough situations to mine for gold pre-flop where the 12/7 is afraid to look. For example, when I noted that OP should steal the blinds more, he replied defensively like he didn't want to expand that part of his game. The simple truth is that an attempt to steal of 35% does not have to encounter any -EV spots pre-flop when stealing, but OP is content with his 28% attempt to steal anyway.

There are tons of other spots where people seem to just be afraid of expanding their game when it is blatantly +EV. In the beginning, I believe the 12/7 avoids a lot of these so-called marginal situations in order to have a lower variance ABC game and to learn that basic ABC game well. The problem is that it's easy to get stuck and not want to advance your game beyond that. But this just goes back to what I said earlier about people not really wanting to improve.

Excellent post as per usual Spoon. My notepad'o'pokergold is rapidly filling up with some of ur recent contributions to the BC.

Originally Posted by kettleofish

Excellent post as per usual Spoon. My notepad'o'pokergold is rapidly filling up with some of ur recent contributions to the BC.

Thank you. I really like your signature, though I have no idea what it's from. I'm glad to be of service.

It's Steve Albini mocking the music format purists in a 2+2 thread he started a while ago. It's a good thread if u have any interest in the music industry (or the slightly more underground side of the music industy). Until he starts replying only in haiku form anyway.