10NL: Sweat session w/KeithMM - hands for review!

Had a 800~ hand sweat session with Keith watching me yesterday. It was good having him there to get a second point of view. I also was getting tons of cards and got into a several iffy spots, so here's a few of them. Hopefully there's some good discussion for these.

1. First off! This guy is a good reg, or as close as it gets to that in 10NL. He can soulread me. I usually stay away from him as much as I can. He is very aggressive on all three streets (5/8/6). His stats are 22/20 over a 1k sample with a 27% steal. The turn bet seemed weak so I called it, but I was not expecting that big of a bet on the river and can't see what I can beat anymore. Any sort of two pair, T9, diamonds sort of thing.

Absolute/UB Cereus No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Absolute/UB Cereus Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($31.47)
SB ($14.99)
Hero (BB) ($10.02)
UTG ($11.89)
MP ($4.42)
CO ($11.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, K
2 folds, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB bets $0.55, Hero calls $0.45, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.20) J, 8, Q (2 players)
SB bets $0.85, Hero calls $0.85

Turn: ($2.90) 3 (2 players)
SB bets $1.65, Hero calls $1.65

River: ($6.20) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $6.20, Hero folds

Total pot: $6.20 | Rake: $0.31

2. I don't have history with this guy but he has fairly solid taggish stats of 16/15/5 over about 100 hands. No reads, unfortunately, haven't seen him showdown much and haven't seen him go too out of line. We discussed calling this but I would have no idea what to do on the river, except maybe b/f. I can't see him having KJ from UTG with his semi-nitty stats, but we decided TT, 99, QQ, KK, AA were too likely to call with only TPTK. Is this too nitty?

Absolute/UB Cereus No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Absolute/UB Cereus Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($7.12)
SB ($9.38)
Hero (BB) ($16.35)
UTG ($9.95)
MP ($7.23)
CO ($13.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, Q
UTG bets $0.35, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.75) 9, Q, 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.55, Hero calls $0.55

Turn: ($1.85) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, UTG raises to $3.80, Hero folds

Total pot: $4.05 | Rake: $0.20

3. This one was fun. Villain is 57/3/2 with 5% 3bet (small sample). Didn't have too many hands with him when this hand went down but he was obviously playing and calling a wide range pre. After the flop call we're putting him on, Ax, Kx, 77, K7, A7, KA, possibly some flush draws or QT, QJ sort of range with some PPs in there. We're thinking it's valuecity from here on. Turn card is a blank, but he calls again, now we're thinking his range is something like AK-A7,K7,K8,77. We're good versus most of that range so we value bet. The river completes some straight possibilities but I can't see him calling two streets with a gutshot, so I talk myself into calling since his range includes so many two pairs: AK,AJ,A8,A7,K7,K8,77 and we're doing good vs that range.

Absolute/UB Cereus No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Absolute/UB Cereus Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($9.10)
SB ($9.82)
BB ($6.16)
UTG ($20.43)
Hero (MP) ($10.56)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A
1 fold, Hero bets $0.30, 2 folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) K, 7, A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.45) 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1, BB calls $1

River: ($3.45) J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, BB raises to $4.46 (All-In), Hero calls $2.96

Total pot: $12.37 | Rake: $0.61

4. Villain is 40/16/1.6. Fold to c-bet is 50%. He was usually quite passive, I can't see my hand ever being good here. I checked the flop for pot control and because if he has a Jx hand he's not going anywhere, anyway. He can't have QT, but he almost always has Jx here. Standard fold?

Absolute/UB Cereus No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Absolute/UB Cereus Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($10.29)
SB ($10.96)
Hero (BB) ($9.62)
UTG ($16.58)
MP ($9.35)
CO ($5.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, Q
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO bets $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.20, UTG calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) J, A, 8 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.60, 1 fold, CO calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.15) J (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($5.15) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO raises to $2.85 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $5.15 | Rake: $0.25

5. Yay aces! Villain is 22/10/3 over 100 hands. The minraise is suspicious, but is this always an insta-shove, assuming JJ-KK is his range?

Absolute/UB Cereus No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Absolute/UB Cereus Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (Button) ($19.29)
SB ($9.69)
BB ($4)
UTG ($15.75)
MP ($8.72)
CO ($12.01)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A
1 fold, MP bets $0.40, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.30, 2 folds, MP calls $0.90

Flop: ($2.75) 3, 4, 9 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $2, MP raises to $4, Hero raises to $14.75, MP calls $3.42 (All-In)

Turn: ($17.59) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($17.59) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $17.59 | Rake: $0.87

6. And last one. Villain is 43/12/3.5. Not much history at all, only about 20 hands with him on the table but he bluffed once with whiffed AK by calling flop, check check, overbet river and got called down. He had a habit of making maaaaaaassive overbets (like $5 into $0,90 pots). Keith wanted a fold, I called.

Absolute/UB Cereus No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Absolute/UB Cereus Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($8.29)
SB ($2.43)
BB ($7.49)
UTG ($11.46)
MP ($11.59)
Hero (CO) ($14.80)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
UTG bets $0.20, MP calls $0.20, Hero raises to $0.90, Button raises to $2.90, 4 folds, Hero calls $2

Flop: ($6.35) 5, 8, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button raises to $5.39 (All-In), Hero calls $5.39

Turn: ($17.13) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($17.13) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $17.13 | Rake: $0.85

Anyways, those are all my "marked for review hands". Any commentary is, as always, appreciated. Thanks!

im a 5nl noob but..
hand 1: what was your plan? hes always (?) going to bet out regardless of his holding - his AF is so high. As played id be tempted to call river, but id reraise the turn like a mofo given the draws out there

shitty line
shitty line
shitty bet sizing
shitty line
fine
fine

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

shitty line
shitty line
shitty bet sizing
shitty line
fine
fine

lol <3 spenda

Not that I'm disagreeing, but if you care to elaborate on what would have been less shitty lines it would be cool. Like, I know these aren't examples of stellar play, hence why they're here.

Then again, I'm sure you have better things to do with your time. :P

1. i don't have much experience having to try and exploit thinking 3-barrelers (hooray for 10NL), but calling turn and folding river seems awful given reads. he's barrelling this card with like his whole range, and like AdJd, KdJd, JdTd and AdKd are like the only hands that sucked out on us. so i don't know if the turn is a call or a fold (saying that it was a small bet is pretty bad justification for calling turn w/o a plan), but as played, you have to call river.

i'd consider folding Pre, unless CO is a super bad fish that the reg is likely isoing with a wide range. otherwise, a 22/20's raise from the blinds here is pretty strong.

2. why donk the turn? as played, consider ranges and consider how often a 16/15 is raising the 2s as a bluff and the answer's super easy. i guess he's raising with draws here every once in a while, but your hand isn't much better than KQ in this spot.

3. i think you did a really good job with ranges on the river here, especially because he's got an AF of 2. i think you got careless with utilizing his crappy stats to your advantage when it came to bet sizing though. well, the flop is careless, given the board and the villain; turn bet sizing is actually borderline terrible given the board and the villain

that's as far as i got for now

Shameless bump. Looking for better lines any of you would recommend, especially on the first four hands.

1. don't like PF, when people blow it up out of the SB they're typically quite strong, KQ doesn't fare well against a strong range from a TAGG here

2. flop is fine, turn is just silly, just c/c and play a river

3. .50 flop, 1.45 turn, shove river

4. Check flop and go from there, as played bet turn, jam river

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

4. Check flop and go from there, as played bet turn, jam river

Others make sense to me. So let me try to figure this one out. The flop isn't the driest ever, that was probably my reasoning at the time for donking into the PF bettor. Admittedly, it's not that wet either, only real draws are 97,T9,QT,Q9,KQ,KT and my Q takes some of his outs and blocks some of those draws (I really never think of blockers, this one is going on a post it note on the monitor). Ok, so check makes more sense now. If it goes check check check on the flop, I would then bet turn, ofc, right? That's the simpler scenario I guess. If he bets I just call. Check raise would be too strong for my hand/the board, no? If I call flop c-bet am I leading this turn? If I check to him again and he checks behind I have an easy value bet on river. If he bets the turn after my check then here I'm a bit lost again. If I call his bet what are my plans for the river? I guess check raise turn is out of the question since nothing I beat will call me. Meh, I feel like such a noob but I'm really kinda lost here.

Thanks for answering everyone, I appreciate your help tons.

the simplest response is that you need to find better reasons for making donk bets. the fact that villain might have T9s and might suck out on us isn't really justification enough.

i think your long post is a big step for a poker player; that is you're starting to see why being OOP (esp. without the initiative) sincerely sucks ass. the more passive villain is, the less trouble we're going to get into, but against players that bet with any sort of balanced ranges, it's tough for us to play ideal poker.

sooo all that being said, i think that renton's ABCD theorem can help you thinking through donk bets here. on a board like we have in hand 4, we don't need to worry about giving villain a free card. anyway, i'd consider this in our B range.

usually our B range is mainly hands that have SD value that we'd like to see a cheap showdown with, but that changes when we're OOP without the initiative. we have to open our B range up really wide because villain is going to be with such a wide range that it's profitable to c/c with like split pair+ against a lot of opponents, and our betting for value range is thin because we're going to fold out a lot of hands that woulda bet if we'd just checked. our C range, blah blah blah it doesn't matter because we have a good hand and this isn't a C range hand ever, regardless of the scenario.

i'm not really an ABCD expert but i think this might give you an idea

Ok, this is really good.

I've read Renton's ABCD theorem several times, and read through HHs posted in some ABCD examples thread somewhere, but I'm fully aware that the significance of it hasn't sunk it and perhaps this hand is helping a little bit.

I'm going to try to create ABCD ranges on the flop. Please bear with me as I may be so badly off as for it to be lol.

On Renton's ABCD Theorem post, he happens to have a hand as an example with exactly the same board, AJ8 rainbow, and his A range actually includes AK/AQ. However, he was the pre-flop bettor. I understand that my actions on previous streets manipulate my range. Is this why I can't include AK/AQ in my A range? Obviously being OOP changes the specific actions on a hand but does it change my ranges?

A: nut hands that we bet aggressively for value:
{AA,JJ,88,AJ,A8}

B: hands with good showdown value that we check call for pot control and deception:
{KK,QQ,Ax,Jx}

C: hands we check fold:
{TT-77,8x}

D: air we might sometimes bet as a bluff and continue if we improve
{gutshots,air,etc}

I was planning on doing this again for the turn, but this took about half an hour already (lol) so I'll wait until someone can correct/validate these and I'll take a shot at the turn ranges after.

edit: Just one question in order to formulate the turn sub ranges properly. Since currently we are on range B, we are check calling flop. Will the strong Ax in our range, say AK-AQ move down to range C on turn? If not, do they on the river? Isn't check calling all three streets just being a station?

Thanks again guys.

*cough*bump*cough*

Also I think I figured out why AK,AQ aren't in our A range on the flop. Every villain action influences our ranges, villain's PF raise indicates more strength than a cold call in Renton's example. Is this why?

At the risk of being annoying I'll do one last attempt at a bump here.