10NL Problems.

I had sixteen buyins, so I decided to take a shot at 10nl. It seems to be much, much more difficult than 4nl, where people will pay me off whenever I hit. Then again, I play 4nl during peak hours when people are getting home from work and the tables reach 40%+ players seeing the flop on average.

For comparison, I played 10nl from around 11am-1pm and got destroyed, ending down two buyins. I would never get paid off when I hit, but every time I ended up on the end of a bet or a raise, they actually had what they were representing. That said, here are the hands I had most trouble with:

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP2 ($2.90)
MP3 ($5)
CO ($12.74)
Button ($5.85)
Hero (SB) ($10.60)
BB ($9.18)
UTG ($9.70)
UTG+1 ($5.56)
MP1 ($9.37)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 5 folds, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.90) 6, 9, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.45, UTG+1 calls $0.45

Turn: ($1.80) 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.90, UTG+1 raises to $4.71 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $3.60 | Rake: $0.15

I made a standard cbet, but he called. The turn completed a straight draw if he was holding 78 and I fired another barrel for value. He moved all-in in response and I had no idea where I was but figured I wasn't pot-committed and it's never wrong to fold if I have doubt as to whether my hand is the likely winner.

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($1)
SB ($7.09)
BB ($14.65)
HERO (UTG) ($10.85)
UTG+1 ($5.68)
MP1 ($13.60)
MP2 ($6.95)
CO ($7.18)

Preflop: HERO is UTG with A, Q
HERO bets $0.30, UTG+1 calls $0.30, 4 folds, SB calls $0.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($1) 10, 8, 3 (3 players)
SB checks, HERO bets $0.66, 1 fold, SB calls $0.66

Turn: ($2.32) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, HERO bets $1.33, SB raises to $3.16, HERO folds

Total pot: $4.98 | Rake: $0.20

I made a standard cbet hoping to take it down, but he called. I fired a turn barrel as that's standard too (is it not? this is what I'm really not sure about, how often I double-barrel when called. Almost every time, fyi), so he wouldn't be able to take advantage of my cbetting then c/f-ing the turn. When the SB committed himself to the pot, I figured he hit the flush and folded with nothing.

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (10 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($3.60)
SB ($9.80)
BB ($4.55)
UTG ($8.35)
UTG+1 ($3.72)
UTG+2 ($9.85)
MP1 ($11.66)
MP2 ($4)
HERO (MP3) ($10.22)
CO ($6.96)

Preflop: HERO is MP3 with K, A
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, HERO bets $0.50, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.40, UTG+1 calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.65) J, 7, 10 (3 players)
UTG bets $1.65, 1 fold, HERO folds

Total pot: $1.65 | Rake: $0.05

I was going to cbet, but he lead into me on a flop I hadn't hit, with a PSB. I only had a gutshot straight draw and two over cards and figured the only way I could be sure I was ahead was if I hit my straight, which meant a call or raise would have been EV-, especially since since a couple of my "outs" would have put a third spade on the board.

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP1 ($2.40)
HERO (MP2) ($9.71)
CO ($10)
Button ($13.57)
SB ($9.78)
BB ($9.75)
UTG ($6.70)
UTG+1 ($1.85)

Preflop: HERO is MP2 with Q, K
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, HERO bets $0.40, CO calls $0.40, 3 folds, MP1 calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.35) 9, 3, 6 (3 players)
MP1 checks, HERO checks, CO bets $0.68, 1 fold, HERO folds

Total pot: $1.35 | Rake: $0.05

I felt I was late enough to try to buy position with my marginal hand. I got two callers and didn't want to cbet the first only to be raised by the one behind me. Should I raise better hands from late position or did I likely induce a bluff?

I just felt completely lost in these hands. Actually, the relatively high tightness of all the tables I was playing at made me pretty fearful whenever I was facing a raise. I was also playing twelve tables, so getting specific reads was a bit difficult, but I could remember how my opponents play in pots with me, so I figured that was enough information to know how they play. None of these players stood out as being bad, like a couple others that would chase their draws with horrible odds (and hit them, leading to the losses of about one buyin). There were only a few of those and not even one on each table, though.

So I'd also like to know if there better sites than Cake for 10nl? I've heard that 10nl just isn't worth playing at Cake, since instead of getting better when people start getting home from work, it just gets worse. I've personally seen this pretty much every day just looking down the list. 4nl will have 30-40% players seeing flops, 20nl will have 20-30%, and 10nl will have the low 10%s. A lot of nits from China like to grind here, supposedly. Should I try another site even if I don't have any kind of extra software like PT or HEM?

none of those links work. stop being lazy and post the actual hand history here.

don't move up without the bankroll requirement. bankroll management isn't a suggestion, it's a rule.

You could try pokerstars if you want softer 10nl games.

You need to provide stats (if you use software) and put your opponents on ranges so you can get the proper help you're seeking.

Cake doesn't allow software and if I had ranges wouldn't that make the correct decision obvious? Does that mean I'm going about this completely wrong by not having more specific ranges than "usually bets when he thinks he has it, usually folds when he doesn't?"

I tend to go by table stats. If the table has say, 20% of players seeing the flop, then I treat everyone there as tight until I see exceptions where players get loose.

If the sizes of pots are small, I consider most players passive and back off when they try to build big pots. My reasoning with this one is that they'll be folding or keeping the pot small most of the time, so why are they building it now? That is, unless a player marks himself as an exception by continuing to be aggressive against me. I figure he can't have the hand he's representing all the time and begin to play back at him.

That is what I've been doing for NL4. Is NL10 really so different that my approach is way off here? I was under the impression it would basically be NL4 with bigger stacks.

Originally Posted by siltstrider

I was also playing twelve tables, so getting specific reads was a bit difficult

This is like a teenager deciding to try his luck with older girls for the first time and deciding that the first girl that he should try hitting on is Jessica Biel. It's a little out of your league.

Really, you should start out playing ONE table, not 12, at the higher limit. Not only will that allow you to make more specific reads (which might tell you, for instance, whether the guy in hand 1 was likely shoving with a made hand or a draw), but it will also give you a chance to get a feel for the action at the new stakes level so you won't feel so "lost".

So basically, I was doing everything wrong, from bankroll management, to playing too many tables, to not making specific reads, during my attempt?

Originally Posted by connectthesuitors

You need to provide stats (if you use software) and put your opponents on ranges so you can get the proper help you're seeking.

This.


Have you gone through all the articles in the beginners circle digest yet? Good stuff in there. I see some bet sizing issues, IMO. Raising sizes PF 4x, 3x, 5x, 4x --- what is the thinking behind the different opening sizes? How much are you C-betting the flops in ratio to the pot and why? (i.e. right under 1/2 pot on 1st hand) Are you putting opp on a RANGE of hands instead of just trying to put them on one single hand? I ask that last one because it seems, at least in hand 1, you are putting them on one of the few hands that has you beat here instead of looking at all the possible hands villian has. What else does the opp show up with here?

I don't even know where to start here. From the sounds of it, you're no where near ready for 10NL. However, those hands are fairly standard and without a read, folding is usually the best solution. Go study up, purchase PT and get the hell off Cake. I absolutely detest that site.

The PF bet sizing was 3xBB + 1/limper. I c-bet the flops with the "half pot" button every time when I first sit down and start mixing in whole pot bets as I think players are beginning to notice me. Half pot just because I thought I wasn't supposed to bet more than needed to get someone to fold most of the time.

I try to put them on a range of hands as we're playing and narrow it down. I figured that since this is a tight table, any pocket pair could be in his range if he was tight, or suited connectors if he was loose.

Since I hadn't gotten to see him in many hands, I was unsure of whether he was loose or tight but figured that since he was likely very passive he must have had something, and TT would have been in his range whether he was loose or tight. I also figured that since he hadn't seen me fold to a massive raise yet, he probably expected me to call him, as well. From there I thought that if he expects me to call him, then no matter he has, I'm probably way behind.

EDIT:
1 - And no, I haven't read all the Beginners articles, but I've read a lot of them. To be honest, I did think I had read them all, but I've been looking at articles from lots of sites and must have confused these for another.

2 - What's wrong with Cake and what would you recommend instead? I heard Pokerstars is really bad in terms of rakeback, since they don't offer any and you have to clear a ton of rake to get anything.

Originally Posted by siltstrider

I c-bet the flops with the "half pot" button every time when I first sit down and start mixing in whole pot bets as I think players are beginning to notice me. Half pot just because I thought I wasn't supposed to bet more than needed to get someone to fold most of the time.

Don't take lines just for the sake of doing it. Have a reason for doing it, plan it out. There may be some lagtards out there that disagree but playing tight when you sit down at a table full of unknowns is never a bad thing (unless you're playing over-rolled and want to portray the image of maniac).

Originally Posted by siltstrider

What's wrong with Cake?

Rakeback is slick and the guaranteed tourneys aren't bad but the traffic sucks, even with the addition of Doyle's Room. Yeah, I'm biased towards the big name rooms.

Originally Posted by Airles™

There may be some lagtards out there that disagree but playing tight when you sit down at a table full of unknowns is never a bad thing (unless you're playing over-rolled and want to portray the image of maniac).

This bears repetition.

Even though both playing overly tight and overly loose are leaks, not all leaks are created equal. The latter will cost you more money and it will cost you that money faster. It also increases your variance and can strain your bankroll.

There's nothing at all wrong with simply being very cautious until you have some reads. Obviously, if you get the nuts or the near nuts, or you get a hand that simply crushes anything that could possibly be in the villain's range, that's one thing, but the money you put in without reads will, by definition, have a lower expected value than money you put in later with reads.

I'm not the really qualified to giving advice as I have so much to learn myself, but I will give you my SB worth of advice. I would do the following immediately:
1.) Get off Cake and move BR to Poker Stars. You are playing at a site that is not condusive to you learning so do something different. Don't worry about rakeback at this point take advantage of there bonus and you will be fine. Grind your roll up and then move on to another site with RB if you really want to.

2.) Invest in either HEM or PT3. Either one will provide you with great info that really can make a difficult decision much easier. They also give you a way to go back and analyse what you are doing. Without the facts in front of you it's way to easy to bullshit yourself.

3.) Read everything in the Beginners Guide and then read Professional No-Limit Hold'em by Matt Flynn, Sunny Mehta and Ed Miller. I only recommend this as your first book because I think it will address your immediate needs. After that you should always have the next good poker book ready.

4.) Don't count on your BR to let you know when you are ready to move up. Let your skills be your guage. As many in here have pointed out it's not unusual to go on a heater for a like 5k hands and think you have it all figured out, only to have a giant shit storm land on you the nest session.

5.) Tight is right! Until you really have things figured out don't even think about being all kinds of fancy laggy etc. Cuz that shit don't work at the micro levels.

Like I said I am in no way trying to tell you I know much at all but I am learning.

Good luck!!

1st hand - you think he's calling your raise pf w/ 78? I think I'd call here. And if he has QQ+ or trips then so be it.

I stopped reading this thread after you said 'I have 16 buy ins'

LOL

I call in hand 1 because I'm committed against his stack size
his raise is raising 3.61 on top of your raise and the pot with his call is 3.60
you only need to win one third of the time to break even
but I think it's not unreasonable to expect to be winning half of the time in that spot against a decently aggressive opponent

I call in hand 1 too he will have worst hands
In hand 2 i am not sure about the turn bet, i would have
just checked behind
villain probably wont fold a Ten or 8 and flushes are in his
range after c/c the flop he probably tried to slowplay one.

Oh well. I went back to 4nl and ground for four hours, recovering $40. I still don't understand how the level of play can be so different from just one level, but I'll follow your guys' advice and see about moving to another site when I get rolled for 10nl and can afford to pay for a HUD with my winnings.

I guess I'm really not as good as I thought I was, either. I 10-table (12 when there are enough people playing) NL4 and usually end up $15+ at the end of a 3-4 hour session.

I just wait for big hands and then pretty much always get paid off, to the point where I only have to remember who the regulars are and change my game against them, except they enter as few pots as I do so I never really have to play against them without a monster. Everyone at 10nl plays like the 4nl regulars, though.

Is that normal and something I should expect as I move up through the stakes? That I'll mostly win by my opponents folding instead of getting called/raised down to the river when I hit my set? I can see where hand ranges would be very important, in that case. Am I correct in assuming that a HUD will help me assign ranges to villains as I get used to playing with it?

Is it just me or is 12 tabling standard for microstake grinders

I thought it was. Is something wrong?

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Is it just me or is 12 tabling standard for microstake grinders

you should first beat the stake playing like 4 tables before you can increase your amount of tables

Originally Posted by siltstrider

Oh well. I went back to 4nl and ground for four hours, recovering $40. I still don't understand how the level of play can be so different from just one level, but I'll follow your guys' advice and see about moving to another site when I get rolled for 10nl and can afford to pay for a HUD with my winnings.

Tonight, I played 3 hours of $8/$16 limit while waiting for my seat at a 15/30 table. The two levels were completely different. The 8/16 was a betting festival, and all I had to do was sit there and wait for good situations to play and if I hit, I could expect to be paid off, subject to a lot of variance.

Then I finally got my seat at $15/$30. It was like switching from gin rummy to blackjack, the contrast was so stark. At the 15/30 table, it was 3 players to most flop, with a pre-flop raise from a player in position and folds or re-raises from the blinds. I had to steal blinds, defend blinds, play middle pair, bluff, c-bet, play some marginal hands, and slowplay at this table, most of which was completely unnecessary (or even counterproductive) at the 8/16.

So yes, limits matter a lot. This is an extreme example of it but the level of play is different at different limits.

Originally Posted by LawDude

Then I finally got my seat at $15/$30. It was like switching from gin rummy to blackjack, the contrast was so stark. At the 15/30 table, it was 3 players to most flop, with a pre-flop raise from a player in position and folds or re-raises from the blinds. I had to steal blinds, defend blinds, play middle pair, bluff, c-bet, play some marginal hands, and slowplay at this table, most of which was completely unnecessary (or even counterproductive) at the 8/16.

So what you're saying is it was actually like playing real poker huh?

Originally Posted by LawDude

Originally Posted by siltstrider

Oh well. I went back to 4nl and ground for four hours, recovering $40. I still don't understand how the level of play can be so different from just one level, but I'll follow your guys' advice and see about moving to another site when I get rolled for 10nl and can afford to pay for a HUD with my winnings.

Tonight, I played 3 hours of $8/$16 limit while waiting for my seat at a 15/30 table. The two levels were completely different. The 8/16 was a betting festival, and all I had to do was sit there and wait for good situations to play and if I hit, I could expect to be paid off, subject to a lot of variance.

Then I finally got my seat at $15/$30. It was like switching from gin rummy to blackjack, the contrast was so stark. At the 15/30 table, it was 3 players to most flop, with a pre-flop raise from a player in position and folds or re-raises from the blinds. I had to steal blinds, defend blinds, play middle pair, bluff, c-bet, play some marginal hands, and slowplay at this table, most of which was completely unnecessary (or even counterproductive) at the 8/16.

So yes, limits matter a lot. This is an extreme example of it but the level of play is different at different limits.

So... $15/$30 played like NL50 online? good to know

Originally Posted by iopq

So... $15/$30 played like NL50 online? good to know

It's not that simple, which is why I said that my example is somewhat atypical. But, as a general rule, when you move up the limits live, the play is tighter and the aggression is more controlled and well-timed.

That's pretty interesting, LawDude. I've been told that live players are generally much worse than online ones, though this is only coming from someone who plays $1/$2 live.

Full Tilt Poker has rakeback and lots of traffic. Does anyone have experience with Full Tilt's and Cake's 10nl? Is there any real difference between the two? Or is the consensus that Pokerstars is the best site overall for 10nl?

Originally Posted by siltstrider

That's pretty interesting, LawDude. I've been told that live players are generally much worse than online ones, though this is only coming from someone who plays $1/$2 live.

Live players are generally much looser than online ones. My theory is that people find tight-aggressive poker to be boring, and that online players compensate for this by playing multiple tables or multitasking while they play poker.

As you move up the limits, the best way of putting it is that your chances of finding a fishy table decrease, but they don't reach zero. And your chances of there being more decent players at your table increase, but they don't reach 100 percent.

In any event, I recommend that just about any FTR regular try live poker if they can get a proper bankroll. With the knowledge that you guys have from statistics and reads and sophisticated analysis of hands and ranges, a good FTR regular should be able to crush a live game at least up to moderate stakes.

Ive played Cake and Full Tilt OP. And FT is waaaaaaaay better, and it also has rakeback. I switched to PS a while ago because rakeback(VPPs) is better there. If you dont wanna move to PS, then go to FT, theres like +6 times more traffic.

But pokerstars only gives you FPPs when a pot reaches $.40 in rake, don't they? That doesn't really happen very often at the micros, so it would be like playing without rakeback. If they awarded fractions of FPPs for fractions of $.40, I'd do it, but right now I'm not playing high enough stakes for it.

Would you say the level of play at either site (FT or PS) is much higher than Cake? I'm really loving my 10ptbb/100 hands and don't know if I could maintain them against players who know how to play. Would I need a HUD to keep up?

No, a HUD is not mandatory. I dont use one. And yes, you need to be playing at least 25NL at PS to get anything from the VPP program. All sites are full of fishes at 5NL, dont worry about that.

You will need a HUD though if you insist on playing a ridiculous amount of tables. I think you should start with no more than 4 and no HUD. Take notes and make good reads. Learn about ranges, flop texture, equity, EV and everything. The sooner the better.

GL