10NL flopped two pair facing raise

UTG is 17/15/2 over 228 hands, no notes of anything out of the ordinary.

So I flat the BB with a nice implied odds hand. I flop two pair and so l lead multiway and utg raises. His pre-flop opening range is probably something like 22+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo. When he raises this flop, this narrows him down to sets, two pair, and maybe straight ± flush draws. I doubt he would do this with top pair, however it may be a possibility with tptk? I can be stubborn and don't like folding here. I will be lost if I call this oop, is 3-betting an option? I assume I can fold to any jams.



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Hero (BB) ($15.50)
UTG ($12.73)
MP ($4)
CO ($10.59)
Button ($13.61)
SB ($3.77)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, 4
UTG bets $0.30, 1 fold, CO calls $0.30, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) A, 4, J (3 players)
Hero bets $0.70, UTG raises to $1.80, 1 fold, Hero ?

He seems to be a taggish reg, most tag regs will raise donkbets.
I call and c/c the turn. Leading out the turn may come off as very strong imo and take out hands you may beat. You could 3bet the flop but that will probably take away the flush draw from your range in his mind. However, my record with 2 pair hands is terrible.

I will ask the question that many used to, and still ask me.....
Why did you donkbet? What did you want him to do (certainly not fold)?, so then dont place a bet without a plan.

Originally Posted by Vinland

Why did you donkbet? What did you want him to do (certainly not fold)?, so then dont place a bet without a plan.

Is it still considered a donkbet when multiway? I was leading to start building a pot with a strong hand rather than allowing it to potentially check through.

I'm still not convinced calling is the best option. I would just feel lost if villain continues his aggression for 2 maybe 3 streets. Would I be valuetowned by a set/better two pair? Should I worry about this? Also, there are heaps of scary turn cards including spades, A/K/Q/J/T...that's like half the deck!

It is true however that I will likely fold out most of the hands I beat by 3-betting. I don't know whether it's silly fish mentality like "I'll bet to find out where he's at" but surely with sets and maybe better two pair he would be shoving over my 3bet to which I can safely fold.

Then again he could be semibluffing his draws/pair+draws...

Idk. I'm pretty confused!

edit: Oops! Of course I'm loving A turn cards!

edit 2: Maybe not after all, cause if he's raising with sets/AJ, I'm behind anyway.

Chat transcript with Carrots, excuse the formatting:

[28/08/2011 18:18:56] Barb: Just c/r the flop
[28/08/2011 18:19:17] Barb: utg will be c betting pretty much any hand he puts money into the pot with when you lead here
[28/08/2011 18:19:37] Barb: youll get to put way more money into the pot faster vs him
[28/08/2011 18:20:08] Barb: the thing is here he doesnt have much air in his range
[28/08/2011 18:20:11] Barb: hes a tight utg opener
[28/08/2011 18:20:18] Barb: so either he has Ax which always bets
[28/08/2011 18:20:35] Barb: or he has a hand like TT KK etc which mgith check but then you're not getting 3 streets of value vs that anyways
[28/08/2011 18:20:47] Barb: if CO has a fd or an ace hel usually bet himself and you can c/r
[28/08/2011 18:20:54] Barb: your position here just works better for a c/r
[28/08/2011 18:21:13] Barb: like if ewither of them has a hand that can call 3 streets or a flush draw, theyll usually bet the flop
[28/08/2011 18:21:36] Barb: so if the flop does check through, likely you cant get 3 streets anyways and flush draws will be discounted so you dont need to owrry about giving them free cards
[28/08/2011 18:21:44] Barb: also
[28/08/2011 18:21:58] Barb: sometimes we get UTG to jus c bet like TT 99 or something that hel snapo fold to a lead
[28/08/2011 18:22:02] Barb: or even KQs
[28/08/2011 18:22:13] Barb: and we give CO the chance to stab air if it checks to him
[28/08/2011 18:22:17] Barb: which he folds to a lead
[28/08/2011 18:22:19] Barb: defo cehck raise
[28/08/2011 18:22:26] Barb: its like 900 times the best play
[28/08/2011 18:23:08] Barb: if the flop was like 976tt and we have 77 then leadings much better
[28/08/2011 18:23:14] Barb: but here someones gonna bet the flop a lot of the time
[28/08/2011 18:23:31] Barb: and when they dont its not a dsiasetr cos all the hands that check back dont have many outs vs us at all and wont pay 3 streets
[28/08/2011 18:23:39] Barb: disaster*
[28/08/2011 18:23:53] Barb: on 976tt youre giving free cards to hands with more outs
[28/08/2011 18:24:05] Barb: like gutters and oesds and shit

pre is marginal
i don't like leading this flop

Originally Posted by Petulie

Is it still considered a donkbet when multiway?

Donkbet = leading out without initiative.

Put yourself in aggressive villains shoes. Lets say me. I'm raging on donkbets. And i have flopped a toppest pair (AK, AQ, AJ), set, a flush draw (KQs, QTs, T9s). I also got some air and weak hands in range (mid PPs, gutshots). And if I don't know you I would be more then happy to make a nice fat raise with any of these.
Because you will probably continue with all of your weak Aces and flush draws, and obviously twopair and set. But since donkbet, to me at least, from unknown villain, usually represents TPGK (TPWK), I am more then happy to get the money in.

So if I were you, I would probably 3bet/jam that flop. I think we are ahead a lot of hands that we beat and we want villain to charge them blindly.

Originally Posted by daven

pre is marginal
i don't like leading this flop

^^+1

pre: I'd rather 3bet or fold than to call oop

I like a c/c or c/r on the flop.