10 nl small winrate

so i finally got up to 10nl. sample is 20k hands. my question is why is my winrate so low? am i playing to tight for 10nl? should i steal more? 3bet/4bet more? call more 3bets? should i be more agrresive? cbet more? is the fact that i am playing 10 tables affecting my win rate?

may be silly question, but i want to know if i can improve my game here somehow preflop or in diff position, or is just a small sample that my winrate is so small.


this are my stats and graph and hope you'll give me some advice to improve my winrate.

Originally Posted by Razvan729

is the fact that i am playing 10 tables affecting my win rate?

yes

The win rate isn't bad, since it's a win rate. But you can most definitely improve. Obviously you're too tight preflop and you could 3bet more - both for value and as a bluff. What hands are you calling an UTG raise with in the 4 and 5 seat? Also, steal 2x as much as you are now.

ok, stargrinder, explain a little pls. playing more tables gives me more hands and more oportunities, shouldnt that increase the winnings? i am asking cause i dont get it. ibelieve you, but i dont understand how. so , going lets say to 6tables instead of 10tables, should increase the winnings and winrate if i keep the same game play?


in 4/5 seat my general range for calling UTG is 66-JJ, AJso+, i 3bet QQ+. if UTG is a nit then i flat also QQ and i fold AJo. if UTG is loose i add to 3bet AK, and i call a litlle more like JTs+, KQo,ATs, suited broadways

You'll increase your hourly rate, but probably not your bb/100 win rate. More tables = more hands, more villains and more decisions = less time to make those decisions.

There's guys that do better playing 12 tables versus 2 but that's an attention deficit issue.

and i call a litlle more like JTs+, KQo,ATs, suited broadways

As nitty as you are, I'm surprised you're calling UTG raises with these hands, even more so one or two seats over. Not really a big fan of doing this unless I'm OTB (maybe the CO) vs a fit or folder.

dont take them out of context, said i am calling that if UTG is losser, somethink like 18/15 or something losser then that, and even if i am calling that i am very carefull on flop.

generally in 4/5 seat i call UTG like i said, 66-JJ, AJ+, 3 bet QQ+, but all this depends on villain, stats, reads on him and my history with him.

Originally Posted by Razvan729

dont take them out of context, said i am calling that if UTG is losser, somethink like 18/15 or something losser then that, and even if i am calling that i am very carefull on flop.

generally in 4/5 seat i call UTG like i said, 66-JJ, AJ+, 3 bet QQ+, but all this depends on villain, stats, reads on him and my history with him.

Forget the UTG raiser and start thinking about who's left to act mebbe? You can have as much history with him as you want but there's still 7 other players left to act, 5 that have position on you.

Originally Posted by StarGrinder

Forget the UTG raiser and start thinking about who's left to act mebbe? You can have as much history with him as you want but there's still 7 other players left to act, 5 that have position on you.

i am confused.... by seat 5 i understand the seat before CO, so i have just CO and BUT IP after me...

I'd be willing to bet if you dropped the number of tables down to like 4 you'd more than double you win rate. Put in a good volume at 4 tables and really get a handle on the stake. Then you can start adding tables and grinding out the volume if that is important to you. I'm trying to do this myself but it is my hopes that I'll not be concerned with volume at all until I have move up several levels and mastered them. For now I get much more enjoyment out of the game by playing smart even though that means playing SLOW as per volume!

Good luck

edit: One thing that did stand out to me was your steal rate which seems pretty low. Read up on blind stealing it really makes a big difference.

if you can play ten at that winrate, (and VPIP) you can probably play 16-20

just doubled your hourly

Originally Posted by Razvan729

dont take them out of context, said i am calling that if UTG is losser, somethink like 18/15 or something losser then that, and even if i am calling that i am very carefull on flop.

generally in 4/5 seat i call UTG like i said, 66-JJ, AJ+, 3 bet QQ+, but all this depends on villain, stats, reads on him and my history with him.

Of course what I'm about to say is villain & situation dependent, but I imagine this will help your win rate.

Remove AJ from thatlist, just fold AJ and AQ to an utg raise. The only calling should be done with 22-TT for set hunting purposes.

And did I hear you calling TJ somewhere up there? Why? TJ doesn't have the implied odds of small PPs because the straights & flushes you make are far more obvious than the sets. Just fold this junk to early position raises. Now on the other hand raising TJ from LP onwards is a different matter, but don't just call.

Also, steel a tonne more than you are, and don' be scared to 3b from the blinds if you have a laggy steeler to your left.

Just my 2c

Your WTSD and W$SD at pretty high considering your VPIP/PFR so I'd be willing to bet you're running pretty hot atm and your winrate will actually lower over time to something more along the lines of -1 to maybe 1bb/100.

You need to call less and raise more, especially IP. You play MP2 like you play UTG which is pretty meh and shows you aren't paying attention to who is left to act and you don't respect position. The assumption that you don't respect position is reinforced by the fact that your BTN VPIP/PFR is nitty as shit. You need to increase your ATS by at least 15-20% I'd guess. Right now its probably somewhere in the 15-25% range which is really tight and you can abuse people with position a lot more.

Your 3bet stat isn't on these screenshots so I couldn't tell you if you needed to 3bet more or not, but most likely, yes. 3bet more Axs/Kxs type hands OTB vs CO and HJ raises to people that fold a lot (80%+) to 3bets. Start out with these types of players and look for more spots to do it over time and gradually open up your game.

Your winrate is fine, since it is postive. Keep playing. Find ways to make more money. Steal a bit more. Don't change too many things at once. Keep playing.

@ Roid it says up there on general stats that i 3bet 2.12 and i fold to 3bet 80.74. Are you saying i should open more in MP2?

about stealing blind, all of you are right, i am relative tight in CO and BUT, i open there Axs, A7o+, 67s+, suited/unsuited broadways, 22+, this is general range. i adjust it to opps. if blinds are tight i add some more Axo hands and some gapped connectors, if they are loose on blinds i tend to get really tight.

from the blind i ussually 3bet on BUT/CO with QQ+, AQ+.

i will try to bet a little bit more in BUT vs late MP and LP openings and also try to steal some more and see how its going.

Raz,

If you have a decent sample on someone who has ATS of 25%+ and fold to 3 bet of 80% or more. Start 3 betting them with Axs. See how that works for you. Do this BU vs CO first. Then add more as you get comfortable.

Originally Posted by !Luck

Your winrate is fine, since it is postive. Keep playing. Find ways to make more money. Steal a bit more. Don't change too many things at once. Keep playing.

+1

2.5ptbb with the redic rake at 10nl is fine imo

Yea, ur winrate is pretty good. I'm about ready to slice my fuckin throat because I've been breaking even. The f'in coolers and suckouts are killin me. I know what ur thinkin...

heaterments itc

Praise Allah someone agrees with me, even if its just EP. :P

By my calculations, you are getting a 5bb/100. What else do you want?

He wants to learn to win without running like Jesus.

Roid,

I don't think he is running that hot, considering his strong range pre I would expect him to win more often than someone who has a wider range.

well i would like to learn to win constantly w/o running hot like roid says, but also Luck has a point cause i play very carefull postflop.

my postflop play is mostly hit or fold, unless strong draws which i ussually c/c until i hit, if i dont or i have a 0EV or slightly +EV i fold.

this kind of play may be ok for 10nl, maybe also for 25nl, but as i have seen on the forum and heard you guys speaking, it wount be enough for higher stakes, and i would like to get there. also the way i play gives me a constant small win w/o to much variance. i want to learn to play preflop/postflop against fishes ranges and learn to deal with variance that comes along to that.

i dont really know how to explain it, but i do play w/ fear, i play for the money and if i am unsure about my hand, even if opp has a wide range pre/post flop vs which i am 50% i fold my hand. maye this is not something that you can teach and is something that i have to deal with myself.

yesterday i tried playing like you said, 3bet more and get it AI pre against opp with wide ranges for calling a shove pre. i was shoving 99+, AQs in to people that i knew , over 400hands, that 3bet/call shove 22+, KQs,ATs+; steal more vs nits and that gave me hell of variance, i reviewed hands and w/o regret ,70% of cases were suck outs and the rest i hit the top of theyr range. may be ok to play like that and in the long run this will bring me a bigger profit then playing nitty like i do , but i still cant deal with this variance.

here is the graph for yesterdays damn sess.




and here some hands. you'd say it variance and i agree, but how to you deal ok, mentally speaking, w/ this kind of severe variance all in a day?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP3 ($9.27)
Hero (CO) ($17.95)
Button ($3.70)
SB ($9.86)
BB ($2.96)
UTG ($36.02)
UTG+1 ($4.98)
MP1 ($6.17)
MP2 ($11.18)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, K
UTG bets $0.30, 3 folds, MP3 calls $0.30, Hero raises to $1.20, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.90, MP3 calls $0.90

Flop: ($3.75) 5, 7, K (3 players)
UTG bets $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6.01, UTG raises to $34.82 (All-In), Hero calls $10.74 (All-In)

Turn: ($37.25) 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($37.25) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $37.25 | Rake: $1.85
Main pot: $37.25 between Hero and UTG, won by UTG

Results:
UTG had 8, 8 (three of a kind, eights).
Hero had A, K (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: UTG won $35.40


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP2 ($10.99)
CO ($9.51)
Button ($10.75)
SB ($10.05)
Hero (BB) ($10.48)
UTG ($17.79)
MP1 ($5.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, 10
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.35) J, 8, 9 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.23, UTG calls $0.23, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.81) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.69, UTG raises to $1.38, Hero raises to $4.55, UTG raises to $7.72, Hero raises to $10.15 (All-In), UTG calls $2.43

River: ($21.11) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $21.11 | Rake: $1.05
Main pot: $21.11 between Hero and UTG, won by UTG

Results:
Hero had 7, 10 (straight, Queen high).
UTG had K, 10 (straight, King high).
Outcome: UTG won $20.06

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

UTG ($10)
MP ($15.60)
CO ($3.85)
Button ($10.20)
SB ($14.92)
Hero (BB) ($10.42)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.40, 1 fold, CO raises to $3.85 (All-In), SB raises to $12.15, Hero calls $9.92 (All-In)

Flop: ($24.79) 5, 2, 7 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($24.79) 4 (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($24.79) 5 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $24.79 | Rake: $1.23
Main pot: $11.65 between CO, SB and Hero, won by SB
Side pot 1: $13.14 between SB and Hero, won by SB

Results:
SB had 7, 7 (full house, sevens over fives).
Hero had Q, Q (two pair, Queens and fives).
CO had 10, 10 (two pair, tens and fives).
Outcome: SB won $23.56

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

BB ($11.83)
UTG ($11.54)
UTG+1 ($10.86)
MP1 ($10)
MP2 ($10)
Hero (CO) ($10)
Button ($11.89)
SB ($9.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
UTG bets $0.30, UTG+1 raises to $1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3, 4 folds, UTG+1 raises to $10.86 (All-In), Hero calls $7 (All-In)

Flop: ($20.45) 6, 6, J (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($20.45) 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($20.45) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $20.45 | Rake: $1.02
Main pot: $20.45 between UTG+1 and Hero, won by UTG+1

Results:
UTG+1 had 4, 4 (full house, fours over sixes).
Hero had Q, Q (two pair, Queens and sixes).
Outcome: UTG+1 won $19.43

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

MP1 ($12.59)
MP2 ($10)
CO ($11.22)
Button ($16.96)
SB ($9.75)
BB ($10.15)
Hero (UTG) ($10.30)
UTG+1 ($10.38)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10, 10
Hero bets $0.35, 5 folds, SB raises to $1.20, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.85

Flop: ($2.50) 4, 6, 5 (2 players)
SB bets $1.60, Hero calls $1.60

Turn: ($5.70) 10 (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero raises to $6, SB raises to $6.95 (All-In), Hero calls $0.95

River: ($19.60) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $19.60 | Rake: $0.96
Main pot: $19.60 between SB and Hero, won by SB

Results:
SB had A, A (three of a kind, Aces).
Hero mucked 10, 10 (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: SB won $18.64


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

UTG ($3.65)
UTG+1 ($10.10)
MP1 ($4)
MP2 ($6.59)
CO ($5)
Button ($18.96)
SB ($3.90)
Hero (BB) ($10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, Q
6 folds, SB bets $0.60, Hero raises to $8.90, SB calls $3.30 (All-In)

Flop: ($7.80) 2, 9, K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($7.80) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($7.80) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $7.80 | Rake: $0.39
Main pot: $7.80 between SB and Hero, won by SB

Results:
SB had Q, 10 (straight, King high).
Hero had K, Q (two pair, Kings and twos).
Outcome: SB won $7.41

there are a few more, but you get the point.

so, i havent posted this to complain about bad beats, i posted them for you see what and how i played.

main question is: did i play ok? should i keep playing like this despite the fact that i will hit negative variance like this, ignore one days variance and be happy for the long term outcome of this play? are this bad runs ussual in the long run for a poker player? how do you deal with a sess like this?

Just forget about it. I didn't read through all the hands, maybe the first 4 or 5, but its just shitty when you have a day like that. Do your best to shrug it off.

As for mentally being able to handle the swings, get a larger BR. Move down to 5nl until you have 30-50 BIs for 10nl if you're not currently comfortable with losing a stack. BR management is a personal thing for everyone. Some people can handle 10-15 BIs, some need 20, others need 50+ before they are comfortable with losing a stack. Do what's right for you.

Also Luck, look at his WTSD%, its 30 fucking %, you don't get to showdown 30% and win almost 60% over 20k hands playing 11/8 poker without running like baby jesus on meth.

He's definitely running hot and his winrate will suffer in the longrun. His stats are the stats of a nitfish. Try to offer him some advice instead of patting his head over a small sample.

nitfish? care to explain how you see my game ? i mean... for me is kinda 2 diff things nit and fish and i cant get what nitfish means.

You're too tight/passive. Basically I'm saying you're a nit, but not a very good one.

That's not necessarily a bad thing since it means you have very obvious room to improve which is awesome since once you start sorting out the myriad of leaks you have you'll be able to actually see the results improving and you'll have a lot more confidence in yourself and your game.

Don't take what I'm saying to heart, don't let it bother you. Motivate yourself to figuring out what your leaks are (I won't, nor do I think anyone else will tell you what all of them are). You have to learn what is profitable and what isn't in some spots by yourself.

When, where, and who to cbet, on what boards. When to check back? What hands to open IP vs other players? Should you be 3betting this guy in this spot or would it be -EV given the situation? Are you folding too much in the blinds? Idk, read some posts, crunch some numbers, figure it out. If you exhaust all the resources at your disposal, come on back, post your thoughts on the matter and what you've figured out and any questions you have at that point.

I used to post 'Stat Check-ups' myself a lot back when I was grinding all the time, but I haven't done so in a while. I think when you're first getting a handle on things and still learning a lot of the basics it will really help your game out a lot, but there's so much more to be done than just getting your stats to the right numbers. After a certain point you'll get 'looks fine' 'move up' or some really arbitrary advice or questions on why you're running the numbers you run but at that point its basically up to you (or a coach if you so choose to get one) to find your leaks and plug them.

By all means, post hands, ask theoretical questions, etc and you'll start seeing the results in no time at all, especially at the micros.

GL

Not to derail but what is a more reasonable WTSD and W$SD?

Mine is 22% and 54%

Originally Posted by Roid_Rage

Praise Allah someone agrees with me, even if its just EP. :P

There's no "even" about it bro....

Its obviously really dependent on your style and whether or not you play 6m or FR.

For a point of reference, I played ~30k hands last month at 25nl and 50nl Rush and mine were:

WTSD: 24%
W$SD: 55%

Which I think 55 is probably near average? Not really sure, but I know that when you run 11/8 you're not going to be getting to SD 30% of the time, and even if you were, you're not going to be winning almost 60% of the time.

But yea, I think average for a FR playing is like 22-26 for WTSD (possibly as high as 28, but idk could be wrong here) and for W$SD anything over like 55-57% is definitely running good.) Yes, that means I was running good in March, and I would definitely agree with that.

Idk, it was just something that stood out to me in his stats that was definitely outside the norm, given how nitty his stats are. It's not like its a huge deal by itself, but given his winrate and other stats I'd say he's ~ breakeven at best atm, possibly a slight winner, but definitely not a 6bb/100 winner unless he seriously retools his game from LP and the blinds.

Take the above advice with a grain of salt since I'm not 100% on the numbers I gave and I'd be open to hear other's opinions but I'd say they are at least near enough to be called somewhat accurate and a decent baseline to judge stats from if you're unsure.

ur 3bet range is too low, you will never get a profit from your premiums hands, since it's easy to read ur 3bets. You should steal a lot more, maybe ATS about 50%. U fold too much to 3bet, I mean, PFR 8% and fold to 3bet 80%? you are frequently folding better hands preflop. And yes, you are playing too nit. VPIP 12,PFR11 would be the correct ones.

12/11 is not 'correct'

12/11 still seems nitfishy lol

12/11 is fine if you know what your doing

pick a style you think is most profitable for you and then learn as much as possible as you can about it and adjust and tune as necessary

i think i need to adjust preflop, cause i am very tight, especially first 3 positions and flop cbetting. i have been thinking about my pfr, but for now i am still unsure o how to widen my range.

UTG i open : AQ+,77+
UTG+1 add: AJs,KQs
MP1 add: AJ,KQ
MP2 add:AT, JTs+
MP3 add: ATo,suited broadways
CO add: Axs+,67s+, unsuited broadways,JTo+
BUT add: A7o+, 57s+

as for calling 3 bets OOP i do it just PP with implied odds and AKs . IP i sometimes call depending on villain with JTs+,AJs+,AQ
i 3bet QQ+,AKs, AKo not always. in blinds i 3bet vs CO, BUT AJs+,AQ+,TT+

as for flop cbetting ( depends a lot on villain tho) i choose J+xy rainbow types of flops to cbet OOP, but i do have a problem with turn cbetting if i get called and i dont improve.

also , except flop cbets, i never bluff and a good player can easily see this. in multyway spots i play mostly hit or fold.

i am a nit, and i dont think its that good cause as far as i played 10nl, my win rate is 1.5-2BB/100 and i think it will remain here or maybe even drop long run like Roid said, if i dont loosen up a little.

as far as cbetting goes, the best learning step imo is to:
A - put your opponents on a range for calling your raise and getting to the flop
B - count the amount of combinations of holdings in that range
C - determine what hands you think he continues to a Cbet on the flop
D -count the combinations in that range
E - figure out what % of his preflop range is continuing to a CB on the flop
F - gradually begin to recognise scenarios when your opponents ranges are particularly weak or strong and become a more adaptive and effective cbettor as a result
F - profit

this is in post-hand analysis btw. it's pretty hard for most of us mere fish to determine a range and all the combos in it accurately during the play of a hand. especially if it's a wide range, which is quite often the case when people flat your raises at the micros. doing this away from the tables sharpens your hand-reading skills etc at the tables is basically what i'm getting at.

12/11 is ok for a level like NL10. You don't need to be neither very loose nor very nit. Most of ppl don't know how to play poker so I believe 12/11 is ok , as someone said, if you know what u are doing of course.