JJ on the SB

Good day today. Ran into this hand and ran into a dilema on the flop with a Flush Draw and also a Ace showing vs. 3 others.
MP is brand new to the table.
CO is 43/16 and apparently aggressive over 30+ hands.
UTG is a 67/0 Calling Station with over 100 hands of history prior.
(My thinking at the time in bold between streets)

Comments welcomed. Would you had played it any differently?

Full Tilt 0.25/0.5 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls, MP checks, CO checks, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Get one of my top 5 hands. Position sucks though. PFR it as usual. BB Folds. Rest of opposition call it.

Flop: (9.40 SB) , , (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls.

UH OH.... Flush Draw and an Ace on the flop vs. 3 others. Time to test the waters.... I C-Bet it to see where I stand.

Turn: (6.20 BB) (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

1 Fold, 2 Callers. OK, someone may have the Ace... possibly the new guy at the table. No reads. 9 comes up. I'm good. So I check with the aggressive yet to act last hoping the newbie also checks and if the CO bets, I can possibly check-raise the new guy out of the hand if he has nothing or to gain more info on what he's holding. Thinking CO is on a flush draw himself as well with two possible on the board (diamonds and now clubs... but doubt the clubs likely). But wait... the new guy in town bets. CO calls. OK. better call here and not get too pushy.......


River: (9.20 BB) (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

OK, so her I am thinking what can he have that can beat be..... Ax, 33, 66, 99, KK, QQ, or 55. That's like 80+ combinations possible. Diamond draw failed but club draw hit. Hmmm.... no one PFRed me prior so I know CO has basically nothing in his hand. I can out weigh almost all the PPs, but tha Ax at these levels... hmmm? But this new guy... If I bet, he may try to raise me to scare me off with claiming he has maybe a Ace or missed his draw and trying to bluff. Ace looks scary so I best check-call to see what he has. But wait... CO folds after the new guy bets. Better just call here with pot being a good size.

Final Pot: 11.20 BB

You played this hand sooo bad.

You're thinking for the turn and river completely sucks.
Also, you didn't post any bet sizes, so it's hard to say exactly what you should have done. A minbet is different to a PSB.

On the flop I think you should check. An Ace flopped. It's 4 handed and you're OOP. Don't bet and make the pot bigger, just try and check the hand down or at least the flop. After the flop you'll have more information on what everybody has.
If someone makes a PSB on the flop, depending who it is, I would probably fold. Others might think this is a bit tight. But you don't have a hand. Someone with Ax beats you. Let a lone someone with 33 or 66.

Fold the turn! You think you're good to a bet and a call? You're mad. Both have players have hit the board in some way.

Fold the river. MP bets! He has a hand. He's not bluffing! FOLDDDDDDD. The only hand he could have that you beat is a busted flush draw. And is he really betting is busted flush draw on the river 3 handed trying to steal the pot? I highly doubt it at these stakes.


This hand was played so bad. You list some hands he could have on the river and you don't beat 1 of them. You call the river thinking you beat what exactly?

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

You played this hand sooo bad.

You're thinking for the turn and river completely sucks.
Also, you didn't post any bet sizes, so it's hard to say exactly what you should have done. A minbet is different to a PSB.

LOL - Read the forum topic... SHLHE 0.25/0.50 Level

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

On the flop I think you should check. An Ace flopped. It's 4 handed and you're OOP. Don't bet and make the pot bigger, just try and check the hand down or at least the flop. After the flop you'll have more information on what everybody has.
If someone makes a PSB on the flop, depending who it is, I would probably fold. Others might think this is a bit tight. But you don't have a hand. Someone with Ax beats you. Let a lone someone with 33 or 66.

Let's look at the Pre-Flop first.... no one raised. Everyone limped. If anyone would've raise pre-flop, it would've been the CO while in position. Maybe UTG could've had it with such a loose passive playing style, but he folded on the flop. That left the newbie guy with no reads. So I could not put the CO on a Ax becuase he has been raising a couple of these hands just prior. I was the one who PFRaised the pot.... so I C-Bet to see if someone is gonna get fancy/represent the Ace.

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

Fold the turn! You think you're good to a bet and a call? You're mad. Both have players have hit the board in some way.

First off, SH with 2 best pair is a flat out check call/raise when 3 way. Like I said, if MP had checked and the CO betted, I raise to put the pot odds against him drawing to a flush. But he betted where Pre-Flop he limped the called the PFR and on the flop he called the C-Bet (but didn't raise). I'd expect most would raise the flop bet if they did have the Ace, but he never did.

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

Fold the river. MP bets! He has a hand. He's not bluffing! FOLDDDDDDD. The only hand he could have that you beat is a busted flush draw. And is he really betting is busted flush draw on the river 3 handed trying to steal the pot? I highly doubt it at these stakes.

This hand was played so bad. You list some hands he could have on the river and you don't beat 1 of them. You call the river thinking you beat what exactly?

I listed the hands that beat me for the simple reason. If anyone had any of those hands, you would think some form of aggression... even with KK/QQ. That's 84 various ways of being dealt pre-flop. You're talking about the top 8% or so of hands. CO has been raising twice that and most at this level tend to raise at least around there or slightly higher. I evaluted each street from how it was played previously before calling each bet. I know people like to bet out FlDraws and try to bluff way too much. But I don't think I played this hand bad at all. If I was in position, yes, I'd be more aggressive... but usually 2nd pair in SHLHE is the better hand in a majority of cases. I do not play Weak Tight as you suggest here. I controlled the pot here in a way. Had I been in position, I may of inflated the pot to signs of weakness. I'll post the results later in the week.

disregard pokerroomace's comments, as he thought this was a NL game.

sorry, i didnt even read your response to him.

oop, i think you needed to check the flop and wait for the turn. i know its pure evil to give free cards, but if those in position check behind, they have no more than a weak flush draw, and the draw wont hit most times, anyway. checking off one sb is not much, but it opens you up to lead out when the bets double, and you can take away any drawing odds. if CO decides to bet the flop, i will raise to isolate him. and check/fold the turn to see if he still likes his hand enough to risk another c/r.

the weak A scares me a bit, but wouldnt the aggro have raised his A pf and in position?

if i checked the flop, i lead the turn and try to take it right here.

and since i dont get raised, i either check/call river (since there is an A and flush out) or i bet/call. this depends on your read of the players.

just a different line of thinking, and a different way to try and protect my hand.

i want you to prove to me you like your hand before i drop 2nd pair in the hole. and i do that by forcing YOU to use aggression against me. because i like my hand enough i will lead the turn and river until you prove to me that i shouldnt. if i lead the turn, and you raise, i am done, though. i dont like my hand enough to get into a raising war with that A up there.

c/c flop
c/f turn

I'm ok with how you played it, and I wouldnt fault you for c/f the turn. Wouldnt hate spendas fold on the river either. Shitty spot, but against two flop calls one of them has an A about 99% of the time. The worst part is its always like A4 and shit like that.

I'm not crazy about the preflop raise. I think it might only makes the rest of the hand more difficult to play.

Here is my thinking:

JJ sucks against 3-4 opponents (says Sklansky, and it's not hard to see why). Typically you want to get in cheap against 5+ players and play for set value. Or raise when you can narrow the field to 1-2 opponents. 3-4 opponents doesn't give you as favorable set value and you are likely to be drawn out on.

All your preflop raise is going to do is bloat the pot and entice weaker draws like overcards to draw out, and you will have 3-4 opponents. Sure you may chance out the BB, but what does that really buy you? I would rather just call at this point and play for set value. You are out of position to everyone and post flop is probably going to be hairy. Also, a raise from the blinds with that many opponents out or position represents a very, very strong hand. So, anyone that limped in with an ace probably has a weak ace and is not going to raise your flop bet.

I would probably rather just call preflop with all this limpers and hope to hit a set. If I don't hit the set, I'll probably bet out on this flop and someone with A9, A8 may be brave enough to raise me so I can get out of the way early.

I'm not sure the preflop raise is the best move.

Beyond that, I agree with euphor about the postflop play.

i like the thinking here newell...at smaller stakes. its not that the pf raise is bad, its the spot from which it was made.

say, you were in MP and you were limped to, or folded to, then by all means raise...you will likely thin the field a bit.

however, when you are late to act pf, and lots have limped in front of you, raising will not accomplish the goal of thinning. better to raise here with 78s than JJ, imo.

am i right?

what about AA, obviously still a raise and RR from anywhere, right?

if so, doesnt JJ still have most likely the most equity at this point? wouldnt we have seen a raiser if someone had something that has us beat...preflop? if so, arent we correct in raising?

again, i agree with not raising JJ from a blind in a multiway pot at smaller stakes. i am just trying to offer a dissenting opinion, for argument's sake.

Originally Posted by NWNewell

I'm not crazy about the preflop raise. I think it might only makes the rest of the hand more difficult to play.

Here is my thinking:

JJ sucks against 3-4 opponents (says Sklansky, and it's not hard to see why). Typically you want to get in cheap against 5+ players and play for set value. Or raise when you can narrow the field to 1-2 opponents. 3-4 opponents doesn't give you as favorable set value and you are likely to be drawn out on.

All your preflop raise is going to do is bloat the pot and entice weaker draws like overcards to draw out, and you will have 3-4 opponents. Sure you may chance out the BB, but what does that really buy you? I would rather just call at this point and play for set value. You are out of position to everyone and post flop is probably going to be hairy. Also, a raise from the blinds with that many opponents out or position represents a very, very strong hand. So, anyone that limped in with an ace probably has a weak ace and is not going to raise your flop bet.

I would probably rather just call preflop with all this limpers and hope to hit a set. If I don't hit the set, I'll probably bet out on this flop and someone with A9, A8 may be brave enough to raise me so I can get out of the way early.

I'm not sure the preflop raise is the best move.

Beyond that, I agree with euphor about the postflop play.

This is just terrible, terrible advice.

OOOOHHH, thanks for the wisdom bomb, Moe!

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by NWNewell

Beyond that, I agree with euphor

This is just terrible, terrible advice.

FYP

LOLZING

Chopper,
Well, I don't really think the stakes weigh into it all that much. But yeah, don't think this is a spot to make a pfr with JJ. In my opinion problem is that with JJ all the possible overcards push us over the top. We can't raise enough to properly protect our hand in limit at any point when the pot is this big. All pocket pairs go down in value in multiway pots, but AA has no overcards to worry about. Other draws are long enough to make it worth the raise. Obviously, KK and QQ begin to become susceptible to overcards. But still worth the raise. But by the time you get down to JJ or TT, there are just too many possible overcards to make it worth while. Being OOP to everyone makes things worse post flop.

Raising JJ will only make it correct for overs to draw out against you, and possibly freeze the guy that hit his over into only calling down his TPWeakKicker against you while you bet your second best hand.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by NWNewell

... a bunch of crap. See post above.

This is just terrible, terrible advice.

Really?

Well, if this is true. I really applicate you bring it to my attention as the main reason I'm here is to try to improve my game.

Could you please explain why and give me some alternate approaches with rational?

I will admit that this opinion was stolen from Sklansky in Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players (See Pg 25, 4th para). He could be wrong. Or I could be mis-applying it.

Thanks for the help!

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

FYP

acronym that Renton hates..... and I don't understand.

obv isnt an acronym. That bothers me.

PF thinking is fine but leading out into a multiway pot with JJ when an Ace flops is poor.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by NWNewell

blah, blah, blah

This is just terrible, terrible advice.

care to elaborate? i would like to see a dissenting post with some thought behind it instead of the "i'm worried about my words per post stats so i'll keep this short" crap.

hey newell, like i said, just offering a different viewpoint i'd read on betting equity edges.

of course, just because we have an edge doesnt mean we need to bet our asses off blindly.

Originally Posted by NWNewell

I'm not crazy about the preflop raise. I think it might only makes the rest of the hand more difficult to play.

Here is my thinking:

JJ sucks against 3-4 opponents (says Sklansky, and it's not hard to see why). Typically you want to get in cheap against 5+ players and play for set value. Or raise when you can narrow the field to 1-2 opponents. 3-4 opponents doesn't give you as favorable set value and you are likely to be drawn out on.

All your preflop raise is going to do is bloat the pot and entice weaker draws like overcards to draw out, and you will have 3-4 opponents. Sure you may chance out the BB, but what does that really buy you? I would rather just call at this point and play for set value. You are out of position to everyone and post flop is probably going to be hairy. Also, a raise from the blinds with that many opponents out or position represents a very, very strong hand. So, anyone that limped in with an ace probably has a weak ace and is not going to raise your flop bet.

I would probably rather just call preflop with all this limpers and hope to hit a set. If I don't hit the set, I'll probably bet out on this flop and someone with A9, A8 may be brave enough to raise me so I can get out of the way early.

I'm not sure the preflop raise is the best move.

I understand what you are saying, but I am not sure I agree that this applies to a low stakes short handed game. (however perhaps you can persuade me differently)

Preflop I am raising JJ in the SB everytime against 3 limpers. I have the best hand and I want them to know it. The A on the flop is not great but on many occasions it will also be scary for my opponents and the C-bet will take down the "bloated" pot.

Other reasons for raising.... It will prevent the BB from seeing the flop with a trash hand and specific to this hand history, MP & CO both posted donk blinds and checked. A raise may get rid of 1 or both.

Your argument is that by raising pre-flop you give your opponents the correct odds to call with any weak draw. This is only partly true. It was not you who gave them the correct odds, it was their own earlier mistakes and the dead money in the pot that gives them odds to chase. Do you really want the gutshot to fold every time ? Even if you limp the strong draws have at least 6/1 and are not folding. So for me, reducing drawing odds is not a strong argument for a limp. The real danger for JJ in an unraised multiway hand is overcards.

With JJ there is a 43% chance that there will be no overcards on the flop and a 24% chance there will be no overcards by the river. In a 4 way pot this is pretty good odds.

With TT the odds are 30% and 13 % respectively. This is a huge difference and playing for a set is probably best.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

PF thinking is fine but leading out into a multiway pot with JJ when an Ace flops is poor.

I'll admit I'm not excited about betting out at the Ace either. But what do you prefer? I'm definitely uncertain as to the best way to proceed post flop in this spot.

c/c? I don't like that because with 3 opponents, anyone who bets the Ace is going to have it. And even if you can assume that if the last to act bet to take a stab at the pot as a bluff when checked to sometimes, things are more likely to get worse for you than better on later streets. What do you do on the turn? If you are going to c/f the turn if you don't hit your Jack, then you might as well do it on the flop and save the bet. And as far as c/f'ing the flop? I hate to give it up so passively.

Being OOP in a multi-way pot with JJ usually sucks no matter what. This part of why I don't like investing with a preflop raise in this spot.


Chopper, I have no problem with different opinions for discussion. I'm hear to learn and I'm sure many of you can offer up different things for consideration. I didn't mean to shot down your thoughts or come across as defensive, just trying to explain my thoughts in response to yours.

finally a debate.

i would like to see you both, since you seem to be on opposite side of the fence (one raising and one not), post some of your profit numbers for TT-QQ, AQ, KQ, maybe KJ.

to me, those are some of the range that falls into this category. sure, theyre not ALL hands you would raise with in this situation, but nonetheless, i would like to see who tends to be more profitable.

i assume, sinky, you would tend to raise these cards more from the blinds and mp2+ (w/ limpers in front).

and newell, i would think, would tend to continue limping this range more often.

i just think this would be neat to see when backed up by numbers.

I''m raising and re-raising QQ every time, and probably AQs too. You can drop those from your range consideration. I'm not raising KQo or KJ in this pot (and I think most would agree it's not close).

Unfortunately, I don't have enough hands in my database for a good comparison. I just started playing again after a 4 month hiatus and since then I've reformatted my computer and re-downloaded/installed PT. I've only got 8400 total hands in my database. Thats only going to result in a few hands of JJ from the blinds. Absolutely nothing to base any statistical conclusions on.


And I agree with a lot of what sinky said (without running the numbers right now, I believe him):

Originally Posted by sinky

With JJ there is a 43% chance that there will be no overcards on the flop and a 24% chance there will be no overcards by the river. In a 4 way pot this is pretty good odds.

With TT the odds are 30% and 13 % respectively. This is a huge difference and playing for a set is probably best.

We have a little difference in opinion as to the cut off. He agrees that with TT, it is probably best to play for set value. True, there is a pretty big difference between JJ and TT. But being out of position to everyone and having problematic postflop decisions brings the relative value of JJ down, IMO. If I was in position with these 3 limpers and had the advantage of position postflop, then Imay be more inclined to raise (or at least not be bothered by with anyone's decision to do so).

I'll see if I can't work out some EV evaluations. Sorry my database sucks.

JJ+ is at the top of your range for checking or completing in the blinds IMO. Although, the odds of flopping an overcard to our jack should be less than 50% but I cannot remember the figures offhand.

I just realized this was 6max with 2 posters. That means I would open JJ from the SB everytime. There is a lot of dead money out there and poorer hands.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

JJ+ is at the top of your range for checking or completing in the blinds IMO. Although, the odds of flopping an overcard to our jack should be less than 50% but I cannot remember the figures offhand.

I just realized this was 6max with 2 posters. That means I would open JJ from the SB everytime. There is a lot of dead money out there and poorer hands.

LOL... I didn't realize this either. Yeah, you probably right.

But none the less, this is a pretty decent thread for blind play with multiple limpers.

Keep in mind, overcards aren't the only draws we are worried about with all these limpers. I just think the that is what pushes us over the top in our decision when compared to QQ+.

Yea, I almost didn't want to bring it up

bigsplenda (and anyone else for that matter), what do you think about my thoughts in response to your postflop play comments about betting out on the flop?

Originally Posted by Chopper

i assume, sinky, you would tend to raise these cards more from the blinds and mp2+ (w/ limpers in front).

This is shorthanded so when we talk about MP we have only UTG in front of us and CO and BU behind us. You should be raising a hell of a lot more hands in MP compared with the BB. Just how much depends on your opponents. If you have picked a good table then CO and BU should be tight and UTG should be Loose passive.

In MP I raise with the something like ...
77+, A8s+, AT+, KTs+, KJ+

BB is completely different. You have to consider how many opponents are already in. In this discussion I think we were talking about a 4 way pot, so I would raise....
JJ+, AJs+, AK

I'll wait a few more day till I post the final result to this hand to continue what I belive will be the second half of this debate.

Like I said, I was in a dellima. But looking back at this hand specifically, I probably should've just limped in pre-flop.

On the flop, the other part of the delima is if I did check.... would they....

check-check and I lose some value to where I'm then forced to bet the turn knowing no one was likely to have the ace?

MP checks - CO bets - I RAISE to put MP out of odds to draw and possibly be heads up against the CO if MP folds and the CO calls OR win there with both folding losing possible $$$ to a bad decision in part of the CO if he did call with nothing/draw not to complete OR face further aggression on the flop from either?

MP bets - CO calls - I fold OR call here to see the turn and maybe loose to the draw completing OR MP has the Ace OR folding possibly the best hand if it did complete?

MP bets - CO raises - I fold to the aggressive play of the CO?

Then there's raising from the blinds. You show you have a STRONG HAND and by C-Betting, you are only building the pot vs. yourself to give the odds to drawing out or donating money to someone who does have the Ace.

And as a side note - personally JJ is my 4th best hand overall.

MY OPINION AFTERWARDS: JJ in the blinds with 2 limpers.... just call/check pre-flop.
FLOP: C/R on a drawing board, C/F if a A/K/Q is on the board, OR BET if it's <J high on a uncoordinated board.

Originally Posted by Chopper

care to elaborate? i would like to see a dissenting post with some thought behind it instead of the "i'm worried about my words per post stats so i'll keep this short" crap.

Here are just a few random points of the top of my head:

• Two opponents (MP and CO) posted, so they have random hands, and since they checked they are more likely to be junk hands than not. That means only UTG has a hand worth playing. You have the best hand and the pot is big. Raise.
• The odds of anyone having an Ace is smaller given the action. By raising preflop, you are more likely to be given credit when an A hits postflop. Make Kx and Qx think they are drawing to runner runner and fold incorrectly.
• Sklansky's advice is for tough games, where your opponents are unlikely to be limping total junk. This is .25/.50 not 30/60.
• Because of all the junk hands, you have no way of knowing where a continuation bet will come from, so your chances of isolating aren't that great anyway. Just get the money in when you know you're ahead.
• Having your opponent draw with proper odds isn't the worst thing in the world. In fact, it probably doesn't even overcome the equity you lose by not raising preflop. Also, consider that your opponents will be more likely to stick around when you flop a set if the pot is bigger.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

OOOOHHH, thanks for the wisdom bomb, Moe!

My plate is pretty full, so I don't have a lot of time to post lengthy discussions on what should be obvious plays.

You've been playing long enough to know the right answer, you're a moderator, and you have a lot of time on your hands. Maybe you should have posted an explanation.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

• The odds of anyone having an Ace is smaller given the action. By raising preflop, you are more likely to be given credit when an A hits postflop. Make Kx and Qx think they are drawing to runner runner and fold incorrectly.
• Sklansky's advice is for tough games, where your opponents are unlikely to be limping total junk. This is .25/.50 not 30/60.

Do you not remember how much low limit players like to play any Ace and often play two many kings as well?

True, .25/.50 is not 30/60. But Sklansky's book was writen years ago for live games when they were weaker. Today, online games are much tougher than live games relatively speaking. So, the gap between many 0.25/0.50 and the games Sklansky's book was written for is not as big as you may think. Yes, these lower stakes change things a little... but not as much as some give credit for.

As far as the two posters.... most of us missed that with this particular hand and acknowledge that this makes a raise more suitable. But we continued to debate this as if they were limpers for arguments sake.

I image you are trying to improve your game as well. Would you like it if people give you one line insults without trying to help. Plays that are obvious to you now were not at one time. And if you think that there are no plays that obvious to others may not be obvious to you, than you are delusional. But I guess you got there on your own with no help form others. That is why you are member of this forum.

My plate is pretty full, so I don't have a lot of time to post lengthy discussions on what should be obvious plays.

We bow to your busy schedule, and will from now on simply accept your word as gospel.

You've been playing long enough to know the right answer

I do. And yours isnt it.

you're a moderator

Yes I am, and I got here through being civil, and giving detailed help to those who asked it. Both points you could learn plenty from.

and you have a lot of time on your hands.

Go fuck yourself? You havent a clue what my schedule is like. Why be a douche and assume you do?

Maybe you should have posted an explanation.

I thought Newell covered it damned well, and felt no need to post an explanation.

Maybe from now on you just shouldn't post unless you have time to actually contribute, rather than post useless one liners insulting our respected members advice.

eh yeah didnt see two posters either. I raise.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

you're a moderator

Yes I am, and I got here through being civil, and giving detailed help to those who asked it. Both points you could learn plenty from.

Nothing I posted in this thread was uncivil, just truthful. On the other hand, you have been nothing but disrespectful in your posts to me.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

and you have a lot of time on your hands.

Go fuck yourself? You havent a clue what my schedule is like. Why be a douche and assume you do?

I just noticed you post pretty often.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Maybe from now on you just shouldn't post

No problem.

Originally Posted by NWNewell

Do you not remember how much low limit players like to play any Ace and often play two many kings as well?

This is not a reason to limp. It's not too different from saying that you shouldn't raise AA because your opponents like to play small pairs and they might spike a set.

Originally Posted by NWNewell

True, .25/.50 is not 30/60. But Sklansky's book was writen years ago for live games when they were weaker.

If you are talking about HEPFAP, then you are incorrect. Read the bottom of page 1. Keep in mind that live play was much tougher then than it is today due to the popularity of tghe WSOP.

Originally Posted by NWNewell

As far as the two posters.... most of us missed that with this particular hand

That in itself is a problem, don't you think?

Originally Posted by NWNewell

I image you are trying to improve your game as well. Would you like it if people give you one line insults without trying to help. Plays that are obvious to you now were not at one time. And if you think that there are no plays that obvious to others may not be obvious to you, than you are delusional. But I guess you got there on your own with no help form others. That is why you are member of this forum.

Part of learning to play well is coming to the conclusion on your own.

Anyway, the main argument - that your opponents might draws correctly, is one that is often repeated and flat out wrong in this particular situation.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by euphoricism

OOOOHHH, thanks for the wisdom bomb, Moe!

My plate is pretty full, so I don't have a lot of time to post lengthy discussions on what should be obvious plays...

then why even open your mouth? if you are soooo busy, you should have better things to do, right?

thanks for elaborating a bit, though. i do appreciate the opinion, obvious or not. just dont see the need to call us stoopid while you do it.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by euphoricism

OOOOHHH, thanks for the wisdom bomb, Moe!

My plate is pretty full, so I don't have a lot of time to post lengthy discussions on what should be obvious plays...

then why even open your mouth? if you are soooo busy, you should have better things to do, right?

thanks for elaborating a bit, though. i do appreciate the opinion, obvious or not. just dont see the need to call us stoopid while you do it. you should be asking us to join your table...lol.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by euphoricism

OOOOHHH, thanks for the wisdom bomb, Moe!

My plate is pretty full, so I don't have a lot of time to post lengthy discussions on what should be obvious plays...

then why even open your mouth? if you are soooo busy, you should have better things to do, right?

thanks for elaborating a bit, though. i do appreciate the opinion, obvious or not. just dont see the need to call us stoopid while you do it. you should be asking us to join your table...lol.

WOW a triple post to prove that in spite of my 600+ posts here, i have NO Fing CLUE what i am doing.

so much for the back button in IE. damned thing...sorry.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by NWNewell

Do you not remember how much low limit players like to play any Ace and often play two many kings as well?

This is not a reason to limp. It's not too different from saying that you shouldn't raise AA because your opponents like to play small pairs and they might spike a set.

That was not way I made that comment. You stated that it is unlikely that they have an Ace and I disagree because of how often people love to play any ace. Because I disagree with you confidence in most players folding there Kx/Qx correctly.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by NWNewell

True, .25/.50 is not 30/60. But Sklansky's book was writen years ago for live games when they were weaker.

If you are talking about HEPFAP, then you are incorrect. Read the bottom of page 1. Keep in mind that live play was much tougher then than it is today due to the popularity of tghe WSOP.

I will argue that many lower limit online games play like 20/40 live games.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by NWNewell

As far as the two posters.... most of us missed that with this particular hand

That in itself is a problem, don't you think?

True enough, I made a mistake.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Originally Posted by NWNewell

I image you are trying to improve your game as well. Would you like it if people give you one line insults without trying to help. Plays that are obvious to you now were not at one time. And if you think that there are no plays that obvious to others may not be obvious to you, than you are delusional. But I guess you got there on your own with no help form others. That is why you are member of this forum.

Part of learning to play well is coming to the conclusion on your own.

Fair enough. But then why did you even bother posting? Where you just trying to demonstrate how much smarter you are than us? Hope you got your ego boost today.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Anyway, the main argument - that your opponents might draws correctly, is one that is often repeated and flat out wrong in this particular situation.

That was not my main argument for calling. It was because you can and will get drawn out on too often against 3-4 limpers to make it worth the raise. And if you raise it is more likely that more players will draw to the river, resulting in higher chances to be drawn out on.

You will agree that the more players that see more cards the more likely they are going to improve when you stand little chance to improve. I don't think the value gained with the preflop raise is worth encouraging this.

UTG range=30%

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

5,219,976 games 8.391 secs 622,092 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.051% 15.52% 00.62% 810251 32271.50 { random }
Hand 1: 16.091% 15.56% 00.62% 812334 32274.83 { random }
Hand 2: 44.075% 43.71% 00.61% 2281848 31657.17 { JJ }
Hand 3: 23.784% 23.10% 00.82% 1205730 42685.50 { 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A7o+, A5o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }

True enough. But most of this debate was with regards to 3-4 limps (I screwed up with the two posters in this specific hand. With that in mind, I'll raise).

The equity in that case would be more like 38% for JJ. Which in it's self is great for a 4-way pot. But I don't think this tells the whole story. I still think being out of position and the reverse implied odds make drop our equity significantly.

But maybe I'm way off base. At any rate I'm definitely motivated to re-evaluate this idea and try to "come to my own conclusion", as koolmoe says.

Originally Posted by NWNewell

That was not way I made that comment. You stated that it is unlikely that they have an Ace and I disagree because of how often people love to play any ace. Because I disagree with you confidence in most players folding there Kx/Qx correctly.

What I said was that it was less likely (odds are smaller). Also, you realize that I am talking about players folding Kx/Qx when you lead into them on a flop containing an A, right?

Originally Posted by NWNewell

I will argue that many lower limit online games play like 20/40 live games.

How would you know this unless you played 20/40 back in 1988, when HEPFAP was first published? I would venture a guess that you haven't played 20/40 live.

Originally Posted by NWNewell

Fair enough. But then why did you even bother posting? Where you just trying to demonstrate how much smarter you are than us? Hope you got your ego boost today.

I really had just a minute at the time I posted, but I had fully intended to come back later. Notice that I only addressed the advice, not the poster.

You guys take everything so personally. This is a bad habit for a poker player.

Originally Posted by NWNewell

That was not my main argument for calling. It was because you can and will get drawn out on too often against 3-4 limpers to make it worth the raise. And if you raise it is more likely that more players will draw to the river, resulting in higher chances to be drawn out on.

You will agree that the more players that see more cards the more likely they are going to improve when you stand little chance to improve. I don't think the value gained with the preflop raise is worth encouraging this.

The point of poker is winning money, not winning pots. Not raising might let you win the pot more often, but you'll win less money when you do win. Realize that basically you are saying that you don't want to get 4:1 on your money preflop because you might lose at showdown.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I'm ok with how you played it, and I wouldnt fault you for c/f the turn. Wouldnt hate spendas fold on the river either. Shitty spot, but against two flop calls one of them has an A about 99% of the time. The worst part is its always like A4 and shit like that.

3 guys who limp called? you actually think JJ is good here? i sure as hell don't i c/f that turn...

They post/called, not limp/called.

DANG, I MADE UP A HEATED DISCUSSION HERE..... you guys want to argue about this as much as you want, but I think I'll post the results here and now to settle the matter.

Obviously we don't know what CO had as he folded to the river bet.

MP had the Pot Odds to call the flp bet. On the trun, I of course check-called here knowing the Ace may be the winning hand, but to find out if any of the two did hold it, I kept the pot "controlled" in a way. There was no agggression form either player then a simple bet and call. The river came and I suspected no one made the club flush since it was runner-runner. Again I check-called seeing it was only heads up between MP and myself. An little behold, I won.

What didn MP have???
, .

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

c/c flop
c/f turn

QFT