Discussion: Why you suck at LHE (for newbs)

If you havent had a chance to look at it, its:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=6613

And, since you locked it and we have no further way to discuss it, I decided to make a discussion thread on it.

First off, I'm going to come out and say I dislike you locking your thread, thereby leaving no open room for discussion, among other things.


If you were to number them, they would look something like this:

Originally Posted by fnord

1. You play too many hands
2. You chase with bad pot odds
3. You call 2+ small bets cold pre-flop with offsuit hands (AQo, AJo, QJo, KTo, etc.)
4. You don't raise AKo
5. You don't 3-bet/cap AA,KK,QQ,AK
6. You fold pretty good hands for 1 bet in big pots
7. You open the pot for a limp outside of UTG/UTG+1 at a full table.
8. You ignore the size of the pot
9. You think you can "punish" a flush draw
10. You play unsuited cards with one big card and a little one
11. You play suited crap out of position and for more than one bet outside of your blinds
12. You play your blinds too much when facing a raise (particularly heads-up)
13. You think playing over-cards is your biggest leak
14. You don't bet the river often enough
15. You under-estimate how much of your profit comes from AA,KK,AK
16. You under-estimage how much of your profit comes from players that suck worse than you and fail to seek them out.
17. You go all-in
18. You under-estimate the impact and diverse forms of luck over the short term.
19. You under-estimate what long term is. 10,000 hands isn't long-term.

Okay, lets get started.

1-6, 8, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16 I AGREE with you, enough to at least not to get an argument over. Capping with AKo opposed to AKs I 'might' disagree with you, it depends on the game.

7. This depends on the table you are at and with what hand you have. An open limp with low PP or Axs is usually a good play on a loose table, probably good up to 2/4, and even some 3/6 tables. I only like to see raising at this point in more Tight-aggressive tables.

9 and 17, What the heck are you talking about?

12. It really is dependant on the table, your hands, and the position of the player. A tag bet from UTG that folds around is probably a good fold. However, a raise from a more later position might justify a call. As long as your outs aren't tainted, you have a 40/60 chance to win, not bad for calling 1 small bet to win 3.5.

13. You are a big vague here, I wish you would define your idea as overcards and then leak. A huge leak IS going to far with your overcards, especially when the opposition wont fold.

18. I will not comment.

19. 10000 hands to the average player is a sizeable amount of hands. Someone who clears 2000 hands a day such as yourself thinks 10k hands as nothing. Someone who hasnt cleared 10000 hands over the course of 3-4 months will disagree with you. No way a hot streak of cards can go over 3-4 months (i say that generally speaking)


And finally, I disagree with your comment (albeit sarcastic) about the Poker Books. The 19 points above are just the small things that one needs to worry about, Poker Books HARDLY deals with the little things, and focus on the Big leaks.

i got a chuckle out of the going all in remark
that just means you ran outta money!

Let the games begin.
I think in number 12 he is talking about the people that will call any raise in the blinds.........there are plenty of them out there.

17.You go all in. I am going to guess this is refering to losing all your money putting you all in. A good player always has enough money to cap every street if needed.

19. All I have to say is sample size

What about raising the turn heads up with a weak draw. I get that ALL the time. That should be on the list also.

Oh yeah, i forgot to mention, add some of your own

Originally Posted by trikflow77

What about raising the turn heads up with a weak draw. I get that ALL the time. That should be on the list also.

Yeah, or A-high -.O

10k hands is 10k hands, it doesn't matter over what duration you play them so talking about streaks and months is silly.


I'm mostly directing the post at the newbies I see comming from the micro tables and the lemmings I see at live games. It pretty much covers the HUGE chip spewing leaks I see over and over again.

Originally Posted by trikflow77

What about raising the turn heads up with a weak draw. I get that ALL the time. That should be on the list also.

It's a good play if there is a chance you can get your opponent to fold. Or if you have showdown value and plan to check behind on the river.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

9. You think you can "punish" a flush draw
13. You think playing over-cards is your biggest leak

9 and 17, What the heck are you talking about?

13. You are a big vague here, I wish you would define your idea as overcards and then leak. A huge leak IS going to far with your overcards, especially when the opposition wont fold.

I see players focus so much on how to play over-cards and deal with flush draws when their games have massive gapping leaks, just just about any point on that list. I see lots of funny plays justified by "punishing the flush draw". They just don't get that in limit a flush draw is a REALLY good hand, particularly in a loose game. The flush draw ain't chasing shit, he's probably got a shitload of equity.

Going allin is horrible because it's money that you can't double up on. You should always have enough chips at the table to play your normal game.

Originally Posted by Fnord

The flush draw ain't chasing shit, he's probably got a shitload of equity.

But if your ahead, you're ahead. No one should misinterpret this point (which should be obvious is you do the pot equity calcs for a typical small stakes table) to mean that you shouldn't raise the flop if you think your hand is best. You just have to realize that the best hand and the second best hand (often a strong draw) should both be trying to get as much money as possible in to the pot on the flop.

you mean AKs not AKo right?

The difference between AKs and AKo isnt that great.

And the you're a bad player because "you don't" is a double negative as in "you should do X", which is what you're saying.


Of course it isnt always true blah blah but that's a bit too complex for someone these tips would help.

Depending on the game, I may not cap AKo. If its HU and a Rock raises i'll call the three bet. At lower limits though I'd almost always cap it.

5. You don't 3-bet/cap AA,KK,QQ,AK


why not?

i tought your suppose to 3bet/cap AA,KK,QQ,AK

Originally Posted by jbmagic

5. You don't 3-bet/cap AA,KK,QQ,AK


why not?

i tought your suppose to 3bet/cap AA,KK,QQ,AK

read the title of the list

I love the way fnord is so blunt.

It is almost like ok boys, you suck, here's why, you still suck, I can smell the suckage from over here, please come play at my table.

At low limits with gamblers and rec players, those rules are absolutely on point. At higher limits, you break all of them. Knowing when to break them determines whether you win or lose at say 10/20 and up.

Great post Fnord.

Soupie

Originally Posted by soupie

At low limits with gamblers and rec players, those rules are absolutely on point. At higher limits, you break all of them. Knowing when to break them determines whether you win or lose at say 10/20 and up.

I definately agree with you here, I'm glad someone said it.

Fnord, I have a suggestion for # 20 of why people suck at LIM

20. Even though you have a sufficent bankroll(presumably), you only bring $200 to 300 into a 10/20 game. I don't know how may times I have seen the following two scenerios.

1. Guy has KK with $43 dollars left and misses out on a big portion of the pot. He then "whines" a about bad-timing while he is rebuying.

2. Guy had $40 to $50 left and I think he is trying to rep the flop. Everyone else folds and I go after him with 2nd best pair and good kicker. His short stack has effectivley limited my potential loss. I may be behind, but I'll have free cards coming. Also, players get real frustated and (and their starting requiremenst can go out the window) when they are down to $40 from $400 -seems like they just want to get out or get set for a rebuy.

Ayway, I think this is one the weakest things I see in LIM. Short stacks.

Any thoughts, Fnord or others??

I'll agree with you, but i think this is a variation of the 'Going All-in.'

You should always have at least 12 BB so you are to cap every street. A lot of people sit with 25, I like to sit with around 50.

If you get down to 40 from 400 you are probably hoping for some mere luck, when you should have left the table a long time ago.

I've seen it happen too, Players with under $100 at a 5/10 table are my favorite!!

Can we add to this:

Playing at the wrong table with not enough chips.

I think table selection is often under rated and see many people sit down at thw rong table and under stacked. I love it when everyone at the table has 30-40 and someoen sits down with 10.

Just wanted to say, "Nice post Fnord".

I am a No Limit player who occasionly plays Limit in B&M casinos. I'm going to read and re-read these and really think about them, because I'm sure some on them apply to me.

Thanks also to Jeff for getting the ball rolling on the discussion.

Fnord, I have two more for the why I suck list

21. You "always" check when you miss the flop (you never rep the flop)
22. You 'always' bet when you hit the flop (never check-raise or slow play)

There is not better "fish" to play against than the ones that do the two things above. Short of seeing their cards, you can't ask for much more.

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

21. You "always" check when you miss the flop (you never rep the flop)
22. You 'always' bet when you hit the flop (never check-raise or slow play)

There is not better "fish" to play against than the ones that do the two things above. Short of seeing their cards, you can't ask for much more.

I see your point, but it's not a strong one. In most live games the calls are so loose that only betting with the goods can't be that far from an optimal strategy. When they're drawing to middle pair, regularly buying pots isn't the path to riches playing LHE. Knowing when and how hard to push is one of the most difficult parts of LHE, however most players have far bigger problems.

From a limit newbie perspective , I think Fnord's post has been incredibly helpful. It's taken me some time to identify some major leaks (and there are still more to find, I assure you) in my limit game after switching over from S&G's and small stakes NL. If you haven't done so, I will attest first hand that you will have some MAJOR ingrained leaks, if you don't make some critical adjustments. Here are the ones that struck a chord with me:

#9 - The "punish a flush draw" item fits me here, as in NL you obviously can take it away from them, or at least force a bad call. I used to get all bent out of shape when low suited take away my pot in limit. But, since I had pumped my TPTK hand, they were more often correct in calling. I've plugged this one pretty well of late.
#18 - Variance - This is SO true for me, as well. The limit swings drove me nuts at first. This also showed me that every little mistake you make worsens this variance and kills you like 1000 papercuts. I didn't realize how dependent I was on the implied odds avail in NL to recover from these little mistakes...

One more for consideration:
#23 - You never study your past play.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

21. You "always" check when you miss the flop (you never rep the flop)
22. You 'always' bet when you hit the flop (never check-raise or slow play)

There is not better "fish" to play against than the ones that do the two things above. Short of seeing their cards, you can't ask for much more.

I see your point, but it's not a strong one. In most live games the calls are so loose that only betting with the goods can't be that far from an optimal strategy. When they're drawing to middle pair, regularly buying pots isn't the path to riches playing LHE. Knowing when and how hard to push is one of the most difficult parts of LHE, however most players have far bigger problems.

Table image helps here...

I believe the Variance to actually be higher in No Limit, but more frequent in LHE.

After going through some NL players PT database, we found the Standard Deviation to be much higher for NL players.

An average LHE SD is around 15 BB/100.

I 'believe' if I remember correctly, Boondock had a SD around 40 BB/100.

Are there any NL players out there reading this thread that can help that have PokerTracker?

I checked my 25k hands from my $25NL experience, and my SD was around 25 BB/100. My limit SD over 15k hands is about 15/100 BB.

Obviously, these sample sizes are small...other people have stats from larger hand histories?

To clarify my previous point, the 'variance' I was referring to was the frustrating feeling in limit that getting way down meant a LONG time to fight back to profit. It can be just as frustrating as losing a huge pot in NL...just more painfully slow.

Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid

#9 - The "punish a flush draw" item fits me here, as in NL you obviously can take it away from them, or at least force a bad call. I used to get all bent out of shape when low suited take away my pot in limit. But, since I had pumped my TPTK hand, they were more often correct in calling. I've plugged this one pretty well of late.

I hope you're not suggesting that you shouldn't bet-out on the flop when you have TPTK just because there is a possible 4-flush out there???

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

I hope you're not suggesting that you shouldn't bet-out on the flop when you have TPTK just because there is a possible 4-flush out there???

If depends on the size of the pot. A small pot when you can take away odds for callers behind you by 2-betting the flop, it is correct to raise with TPTK. But in a large pot you cannot protect your hand by 2 betting and may actually give them odds to call your turn raise because of your juicing of the pot on the flop...

EDIT: not quite related but close, so anyway

- sed

Originally Posted by sed

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

I hope you're not suggesting that you shouldn't bet-out on the flop when you have TPTK just because there is a possible 4-flush out there???

If depends on the size of the pot. A small pot when you can take away odds for callers behind you by 2-betting the flop, it is correct to raise with TPTK. But in a large pot you cannot protect your hand by 2 betting and may actually give them odds to call your turn raise because of your juicing of the pot on the flop...

EDIT: not quite related but close, so anyway

- sed

I would also say it also depends on the number of players who are still in. such as when 6-7 call my raise from mid-early position, and the flop comes two suited and hits me pretty well, I will probably check and try to C/R a late position bet. Or else I'd just call and not invest too much, and see what happens on the turn.

I barely deserve to comment on this stuff because I only rarely play limit hold 'em, (I only play limit when I go to B&M casinos), but two of Fnord's points are so true that I just had to chime in..

Originally Posted by fnord

14. You don't bet the river often enough

So, so, so true. It is so easy to check the river, especially in a live game if you are last to act. You are always somewhat unsure of your hand, and how embarrasing would it be if you bet and it turns out he was just setting you up for a check/raise? In reality, hardy anybody tries a check/raise on the river. If you have a solid hand you MUST bet the river becuase chances are the other guy has a lousy hand but will call anyways. You MUST resist the tempation to just turn your cards over.

Originally Posted by fnord

17. You go all-in

UNBELIEVABLE how many people do this!!! Its as if people get a thrill out of saying the words "all-in" and intentionally put themselves in a situation where they have to do it. Just last night I was playing 3/6 and I guy sat there for an entire orbit with like $10 left. He was just waiting for that one hand to go "all-in" with.. Ridiculous. It is just plain stupid to not have enough chips to bet and raise on every street.

Thats all for now..

I used to play NL only, but now i play $1-2 and $2-4 limit (when the game is good).

I see horrible play at ALL limit games even up to $20-40 on my site.

The real trick isn't knowing when to raise AK and shit , its AVOIDING the fish who play A,7 to the river and beat your AK because he caught a runner-runner set.

Originally Posted by jmontis

I see horrible play at ALL limit games even up to $20-40 on my site.

What site?

Originally Posted by jmontis

The real trick isn't knowing when to raise AK and shit , its AVOIDING the fish who play A,7 to the river and beat your AK because he caught a runner-runner set.

Where's an open seat? I'll play AK vs A7 in a raised pot any day.

I don't really play limit holdem, but do mess around at the limit tables some times. But one of your points was:

You go all-in

How can you go allin at limit holdem? If you go allin it's because you are very short stacked. Isn't it?

The blinds must be very big or you must be very short stacked if you manage to go allin.

Obviously, I misunderstood. What did you mean?


PS - Who wouldn't play AK vs A7?

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

I don't really play limit holdem, but do mess around at the limit tables some times. But one of your points was:

You go all-in

How can you go allin at limit holdem? If you go allin it's because you are very short stacked. Isn't it?

The blinds must be very big or you must be very short stacked if you manage to go allin.

Obviously, I misunderstood. What did you mean?


PS - Who wouldn't play AK vs A7?

His point about going allin was that you should never be shortstacked enough that you even can go allin, because it means you will be missing out on value if you hit a big hand.

Hi,
This is great advice. I was playing for about 2 hours before reading your article and, luckily it was .02/.04, I was losing like crazy. what I realized is that over time I start playing like everyone else. Since I'm still so new, it's easy too play like opponents without even realizing it. I have a few books on the way, and I've learned to get up often and assess my situation. This really helps me from tilting. Keep up the good work.

uh, thanks? lol, i'll let fnord know right after i lock this thread.

{unlocked}

Its for discussion, let it be discussed.

"6. You fold pretty good hands for 1 bet in big pots"

Horrible! I see this ALL the time. Newb flops two pair and bets out, 2 callers. Turn comes, making a flush draw on the board, newb bets, 1 caller. River comes the third flush card. Newb checks, other guy bets. Newb folds. Ugh!

"8. You ignore the size of the pot"

Most newbs don't even know what pot odds are. I think, after learning some basic starting hand requirements, this should be the next compulsory stage of devlopment.

"1. You play too many hands"

I've left this til last, because I think it's by far the biggest leak most newbs have. In limit holdem, tight is right. I see so many players going with any Ace, any 2 suited cards, 3-gapper connectors like K9 etc. Horrible. Stop it.



May I make a suggestion to replace the current number 2(or at least bump it down the list a little), as this to me is the second biggest leak in most newbie's games:

2. You pay absolutely no attention to the importance of position.

i have a pair to add, being:

23?. You are a worse player than you think.
24?. You are a better player than you think.

one of these applies to me but i'm ironing.

This thread has been extremely helpful. I'm playing some limit freerolls and am finding that playing tight is getting me in deeper positions than some of my NL freerolls. It's gotten to the point where I am actually thinking of playing some cash limit games once I build up the bankroll.

A.

fold

I completely disagree. I buy in for what everyone else bought in for, as long as its greater than 12bb. I dont want to stand out, I stand out enough as it is being that i'm 22 and most of the casino i visit is 50+

fold

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I completely disagree. I buy in for what everyone else bought in for, as long as its greater than 12bb. I dont want to stand out,

Umm...don't you mean 16 BB? There are four rounds, not three.

I agree about not standing out to begin with, though I'll tend to buy in near the high end of the stacks. Now in my limited experience those who buy in for a large amount are loose players trying to intimidate, so maybe if you buy in big you may be underestimated.

Oh, and regarding the long term...I've read that it takes 100,000 hands for win rate to converge, so 10,000 hands is a small sample size (whether it takes four months or four days to play the hands). I know that Matthew Hilger wrote about this saying that simply due to variance a good player may not be in the black for 40,000 hands.

One of the worst habits a LHE player can have :

- You call too often, and don't bet/raise enough.

Aggression wins.

Another common reason why you suck...

- You concentrate too much on results, and not enough on making correct decisions.

- Corollary : You let your "lucky" results influence future decisions.

I don't care how well you got paid off when calling 2-bets cold out of the BB with 96. The correct decision is to lay it down and not get involved.

LHE is a game of small edges. Making bad decisions takes away any edge you might have.

Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I completely disagree. I buy in for what everyone else bought in for, as long as its greater than 12bb. I dont want to stand out,

Umm...don't you mean 16 BB? There are four rounds, not three.

Two of those rounds are small bet rounds. 8SB=4BB

I usually just buy in for an amount that will encompass normal variance and let me get away with not buying in again if I get some bad beats. But I don't play live games, so it might be different there.

Those times when you flop the nuts you definitely want to be able to get the maximum into the centre. There isn't always a table full of people willing to cap and chase with you, but when they do I sure don't want to be running out of chips.

I can't believe no-one's mentioned lack of emotional control?

Or how about: you berate/mock/discourage bad play on the part of your opponents

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

I can't believe no-one's mentioned lack of emotional control?

Or how about: you berate/mock/discourage bad play on the part of your opponents

Too true. I hate when someone blows a gasket and starts berating a weak player - it makes it an unpleasant place for the weak player, and I want him as happy as possible.

Originally Posted by arborman

Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard

Umm...don't you mean 16 BB? There are four rounds, not three.

Two of those rounds are small bet rounds. 8SB=4BB

- You don't realize the value of position.

crazy bump....

these are very good tips i have just started the game and it really is just a list of things i do wrong

you have saved me a lot of time and effort thank you for the check list

You jam your draws without enough pot equity (callers) and/or with very little fold equity destroying your implied odds in the process.

Could you expand on this?

If you had a 9 out nut flush draw, how many callers would you want in order to have the pot equity to raise your draw on the flop?

If you had a 15 out draw (flush + open ended straight), your equity would be higher and you would need fewer callers to raise on the flop, right?

Then what happens if you don't get your card on the turn. Continue to bet and raise or just check/ call with the 1 card to come?

Originally Posted by CoreyC

You jam your draws without enough pot equity (callers) and/or with very little fold equity destroying your implied odds in the process.

Could you expand on this?

If you had a 9 out nut flush draw, how many callers would you want in order to have the pot equity to raise your draw on the flop?

If you had a 15 out draw (flush + open ended straight), your equity would be higher and you would need fewer callers to raise on the flop, right?

Then what happens if you don't get your card on the turn. Continue to bet and raise or just check/ call with the 1 card to come?

Essentially, the math works like this. When you call a bet, the odds you are getting on the bet are simple.

PO = (P / B) - 1
IO = (EPS / B) -1

PO - pot odds
P - pot size after your bet
B - bet size
IO - implied odds
EPS - expected pot size

When you bet or raise, however, it's a different calculation. The amount already in the pot is dead money with respect to your bet or raise; as long as everyone else checks, you remain eligible to win that money even if you don't bet.

So the odds on your bet or raise are dependent on how many callers you are getting.

Here's the math:

AO = EnC
IO = ((B + (EnC * B) + EBFS) / B) - 1

AO - absolute odds
EnC - expected number of callers
EBFS - expected bets on future streets

The point is, for your bet or raise to be worthwhile, you either need: (1) 50 percent of the equity of the pot, in which case any called bet or raise is +EV, (2) sufficient fold equity from better hands to justify a bet even without 50 percent of the equity of the pot, or (3) sufficient absolute or implied odds based on the number of expected callers to justify a bet on a draw. Or some combination of (2) and (3).

The plain English translation of all this is that if you have a lot of expected callers, you can bet and raise draws with far less than 50 percent of the equity in the pot. With 4 callers, you are getting 4 to 1 on your money, so if you even have a 20 percent chance of either winning the hand or getting the other players to fold, your bet is +EV. But if you only have 1 caller who is going to call you down to the river unless it is obvious that you hit your draw (i.e., no fold equity), then you are only getting even money on your bet and better have more than a 50 percent chance of winning the hand for the bet to be +EV.

So the process is as follows: (1) estimate the number of callers you expect to get, (2) estimate your fold equity, and (3) estimate your chances of winning the hand. Those three factors should direct you to whether it is more profitable to bet/raise your draw or just check/call it.