QQ on first hand of SnG...Did I play it right?

Buy-in? $6.50.

PokerStars Game #2045518139: Tournament #9756958, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/07/06 - 16:54:26 (ET)
Table '9756958 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: pocheshe (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: iriego (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: cookiels (1500 in chips)
Seat 4: slopeslayer (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: cannoni (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: seasidemimi (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: pischrist101 (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: jj_frap (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: asu79 (1500 in chips)
iriego: posts small blind 10
cookiels: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jj_frap [Qc Qd]
slopeslayer: raises 20 to 40
cannoni: folds
seasidemimi: calls 40
pischrist101: calls 40
jj_frap: raises 180 to 220
asu79: folds
pocheshe: raises 1280 to 1500 and is all-in
iriego: folds
cookiels: folds
slopeslayer: folds
seasidemimi: calls 1460 and is all-in
pischrist101: folds
jj_frap: calls 1280 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Td Ah 9h]
*** TURN *** [Td Ah 9h] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [Td Ah 9h Ks] [6s]
jj_frap said, "gg"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
seasidemimi: shows [Ad Js] (a pair of Aces)
jj_frap: shows [Qc Qd] (a pair of Queens)
pocheshe: shows [2c 2s] (a pair of Deuces)
seasidemimi collected 4610 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4610 | Rake 0
Board [Td Ah 9h Ks 6s]
Seat 1: pocheshe (button) showed [2c 2s] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 2: iriego (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: cookiels (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: slopeslayer folded before Flop
Seat 5: cannoni folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: seasidemimi showed [Ad Js] and won (4610) with a pair of Aces
Seat 7: pischrist101 folded before Flop
Seat 8: jj_frap showed [Qc Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 9: asu79 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

A few hands later, the fishtard in question wins again:

PokerStars Game #2045551299: Tournament #9756958, Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2005/07/06 - 16:59:48 (ET)
Table '9756958 1' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: iriego (490 in chips)
Seat 3: cookiels (1960 in chips)
Seat 4: slopeslayer (2080 in chips)
Seat 5: cannoni (2600 in chips)
Seat 6: seasidemimi (4580 in chips)
Seat 7: pischrist101 (1490 in chips)
Seat 8: scaredy kat (1160 in chips)
Seat 9: asu79 (620 in chips)
pischrist101: posts small blind 15
scaredy kat: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
asu79: folds
iriego: raises 460 to 490 and is all-in
cookiels: folds
slopeslayer: folds
cannoni: folds
seasidemimi: calls 490
pischrist101: folds
scaredy kat: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ks 9c 5s]
*** TURN *** [Ks 9c 5s] [5h]
iriego said, "gg"
*** RIVER *** [Ks 9c 5s 5h] [2h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
iriego: shows [Qc Ad] (a pair of Fives)
seasidemimi: shows [Kc Js] (two pair, Kings and Fives)
seasidemimi collected 1025 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1025 | Rake 0
Board [Ks 9c 5s 5h 2h]
Seat 2: iriego showed [Qc Ad] and lost with a pair of Fives
Seat 3: cookiels folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: slopeslayer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: cannoni folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: seasidemimi (button) showed [Kc Js] and won (1025) with two pair, Kings and Fives
Seat 7: pischrist101 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: scaredy kat (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: asu79 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

meh. personally this early in a tourny, I would have just called the bet and looked for a rag flop or a set of Qs. You have to consider that you have no reads and therefore no idea what kind of hands are going to get pushed by the 2 in front of u.

Frustrating to have the best hand and the prospect of tripling up first hand, but then it could really have been avoided until u had a better idea of the table texture.

Originally Posted by Staresy

meh. personally this early in a tourny, I would have just called the bet and looked for a rag flop or a set of Qs. You have to consider that you have no reads and therefore no idea what kind of hands are going to get pushed by the 2 in front of u.

Frustrating to have the best hand and the prospect of tripling up first hand, but then it could really have been avoided until u had a better idea of the table texture.

At this level, it's almost always small pocket-pairs or overvalued marginal broadways. (AJo min-raise UTG? I'd muck it. Deuces? Set it or forget it. It's only a good push hand in the red zone.)

Yeah, I know it's formulaic, but against these schumucks, there's really no other way to play.

STBY, lets move this to the bad beat section aye?

CALL THIS ALL-IN EVERYTIME WITH NO REGRETS!

It's the first hand, if you lose just join another SNG, if you win you triple up and should certainly cash!

Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qc Qd 795862 58.06 568922 41.50 5970 0.44 0.582
Js Ad 333431 24.32 1031353 75.24 5970 0.44 0.245
2s 2c 235491 17.18 1129293 82.38 5970 0.44 0.173

58.06*T4610=T2676 << Now that's nice EV

Originally Posted by Toasty

CALL THIS ALL-IN EVERYTIME WITH NO REGRETS!

It's the first hand, if you lose just join another SNG, if you win you triple up and should certainly cash!

Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qc Qd 795862 58.06 568922 41.50 5970 0.44 0.582
Js Ad 333431 24.32 1031353 75.24 5970 0.44 0.245
2s 2c 235491 17.18 1129293 82.38 5970 0.44 0.173

58.06*T4610=T2676 << Now that's nice EV

Where did you find this?

Toasty, Toasty, Toasty.. Your going to confused them with your stats and numbers. Well of course if he knew the guy had AJ and 22 he would call it every time. But in an unknown situation your likely in a coinflip possibly pwned by AA/KK.

I'm sorry but very first hand of a SnG this the place to look for coinflips.
With a read i might have called, but most likely not.

I would not have Overcalled preflop.

Originally Posted by mike4066

Toasty, Toasty, Toasty.. Your going to confused them with your stats and numbers. Well of course if he knew the guy had AJ and 22 he would call it every time. But in an unknown situation your likely in a coinflip possibly pwned by AA/KK.

I'm sorry but very first hand of a SnG this the place to look for coinflips.
I would have dumped it to the all-in. You have about over an hour of poker left. Are you trying to win this tournament first hand? (btw that is nearly impossible)

Here's a hand typical of the calibre of play I've witnessed at the $6 + $0.50 level at PokerStars.

PokerStars Game #2046198623: Tournament #9759990, Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2005/07/06 - 18:37:43 (ET)
Table '9759990 1' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: cookiels (1320 in chips)
Seat 2: eafraser (1330 in chips)
Seat 4: mcs9pilot (3195 in chips)
Seat 5: jj_frap (1900 in chips)
Seat 6: DRDHOYLE (1230 in chips)
Seat 7: Ifish2much (3235 in chips)
Seat 8: delts88 (1290 in chips)
cookiels: posts small blind 15
eafraser: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jj_frap [Qs 6s]
mcs9pilot: folds
jj_frap said, "Eastern Europe > USA. Proof? Rammstein is popular in Eastern Europe whereas Americans are stupid and prefer crap like Gwen Stefani."
jj_frap: folds
DRDHOYLE: folds
Ifish2much: folds
delts88: raises 30 to 60
cookiels: folds
eafraser: calls 30
*** FLOP *** [4s 3c 8d]
eafraser: checks
delts88: bets 1230 and is all-in
eafraser: calls 1230
*** TURN *** [4s 3c 8d] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [4s 3c 8d 2c] [Ts]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
eafraser: shows [3s 2s] (two pair, Threes and Deuces)
delts88: shows [Jc Js] (a pair of Jacks)
eafraser collected 2595 from pot
jj_frap said, "Bull****"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2595 | Rake 0
Board [4s 3c 8d 2c Ts]
Seat 1: cookiels (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: eafraser (big blind) showed [3s 2s] and won (2595) with two pair, Threes and Deuces
Seat 4: mcs9pilot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: jj_frap folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: DRDHOYLE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Ifish2much folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: delts88 (button) showed [Jc Js] and lost with a pair of Jacks

So ya, I had reason to believe that my queens were good.

i re-worded my post a bit about the same time you quoted it..

Just because they play like idiots doesn't mean you have to lower yourself ot their standards of play. Sure take the coinflip, you are likely ahead, but even the biggest "fish" gets aces now and then.


Or as our mothers would say,
"If tommy jumped off a bridge would you?!!!?!"


Toasty used PokerStove to get those #'s

Would you have called with AK in this situation?

And my tourney ends as my aces get cracked by J3s.

I'd call with AK too and I used http://www.twodimes.net/poker/ :P

With so many fish playing SNGs, this call has to be +EV in the long run. Coin-flips for 2:1 chips aren't a bad thing either

Tourneys are a sticky thing...a 2:1 coinflip is certainly very +EV on chips, but I'm not convinced it's +EV in money. Losing the coinflip guarantees you lose your money, while winning guarantees you nothing...you'd need a guaranteed 2nd place finish to make this +EV.

should have been a very easy fold.

On Pokerstars turbo tournaments I would call it everytime, There is a good chance you are ahead.
On the regular pokerstars tournament I would fold it

Yeah I dunno guys, with the shady AIs I've seen posted here lately at the 5-10 levels early, I'm not sure I could get away from JJ-AK-QQ here. I mean, this guy went over the top of a raise, call and re raise with two ducks. Ducks. Yesterday someone was calling AI with A7s. I think you just have to be OK with the variance playing down here, or plan on waiting and getting your luck later battling with the two-three surviving morons, two who have you out chipped 3 to 1. But I don't think you're bettter than a coin flip to win in that spot either.

It's getting worse...

The following are hands people have pushed/called with early on in my current tournament: None of them were desperate.

Q7o
A7s
ATo
AJs
Q9o

Another guy cold-called a 12 X BB raise wit 54o and lost to Jacks.

I play these $5 Sng tourneys at PS all the time. In there $5 Sng tourneys at PS, I just wait it out. I would have called the raise and tried to bust him on the flop. In not, I'll be waiting for them when I do get a chance to bust them.

First off, I agree with your preflop reraise, trying to knock out the drawing hands (Ax suited, K10, connectors, etc). Once you're reraised all in, against 1 player you have to like your odds BUT against a reraise all in and a call, you are very likely a dog. Even if you give the players no credit (and considering how it worked out, they dont deserve any) you have to think one has an ace (anything from Ax suited through AK) and the other has either a lower pair (best case), a K (KJ, Kx suited etc), or either KK/AA (worst case). In the middle case, you are in a coin flip situation for all of your chips. If you feel like you are a much better player than the table, folding and outplaying later in the tourney is a good option. 2-1 odds are a great incentive for calling, but understand a) your tourney is at risk, and b) you are probably in a coin flip situation. This decision has nothing to do with how bad they played, you know what your odds are and should accept the outcome. This is exactly why isolation with a hand like QQ or JJ is so important. Also, do not rule out the 2nd player having KK or AA, as these are likely (but certainly not absolute) reasons for the call. Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by Toasty

I'd call with AK too and I used http://www.twodimes.net/poker/ :P

With so many fish playing SNGs, this call has to be +EV in the long run. Coin-flips for 2:1 chips aren't a bad thing either

They are in the first couple of blind levels. Cant win a SnG if you get knocked out when the blinds have no significant effect on your stack.

You lose, you join another SNG...

Whatever floats your boat I guess.