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How to become a Sit'N'Go Grinder

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  1. #1
    Keilah's Avatar
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    Default How to become a Sit'N'Go Grinder

    Do you realize you could be earning $50k a year playing poker as a part-time job? It’s true. Prepare yourself.

    Turbo Sit’n’Go Texas Hold’Em is, in my opinion, the simplest and most straightforward version of the game today, but paradoxically one of the easiest to be terrible at – thus plenty of fish (them) for the sharks (us) to feed on. You play super-tight at the early levels, you steal and re-steal in the middle stages, and you push/fold in the later stages. The game requires a great understanding of the ICM (Independent Chip Model), the effects of stack sizes, blinds, and position, and a feel for the proper pushing and calling ranges for yourself and your opponents. (If you don’t know what ICM is, look it up. If you can’t be bothered, then you don’t have the initiative to take this on. Get a job.) All of these are quite learnable. From there on in, it’s all gravy.

    The first thing to do is get a brief education on the basics. Find out a thing or two about pot odds, bet sizes, and hand strength – this can be found anywhere, so go out and look. Remember – initiative. Read through FlopTurnRiver.com’s SitNGo Strategies section (http://poker-strategy.flopturnriver.com/) and SitAndGoPlanet.com’s (http://www.sitandgoplanet.com/index.html) excellent ‘A Comedy of Errors’. Start playing a few Turbo Sit’n’Go games (I believe Turbo SnG, 1 or 2 tables, is the best because the games go fast and there is rarely opportunity for post-flop play, thus greatly reducing the learning curve), one at a time if you must, but preferably two or three at once. You want to gain experience quickly and get used to multi-tabling; besides, I guarantee that proper play is tighter than you will want to play at first. Multi-tabling alleviates the boredom of waiting for the right hands. Once you start to get a feel for things (this shouldn’t take too long – think 5-20 hours), go back and re-read the articles, then move on.

    Take a look at FlopTurnRiver.com’s SitNGo Experiment (http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hs-t65721.html) as an example game to give you an idea of proper play. Read through the hand histories, figure out what’s going on, and learn from some truly great players. Notice the differences between their game and the retard-laden games you’ll be learning on. There’s a lot to grasp and you probably won’t get it all at first, so take your time and re-read it after playing a few more games.

    SitNGo Wizard is an absolutely essential software program. SNGWiz is available for a free 30-day trial and comes with an excellent tutorial (more required reading), a very helpful hand history analyzer, and an awesome quiz feature. When you use the quiz, adjust the settings to levels that are more representative of real play (IE, in a real game, you will have between 4-15 Big Binds in your stack when the decisions start to get tough, not 1-100 as it defaults to). I also recommend PokerTracker to keep, well, track of your poker games and help you spot leaks, as well as PokerAce HUD, an add-on program that gives real-time stats on your opponents (this does a decent job of reading opp’s betting habits for you – a must when multi-tabling).

    Keep playing while you read this stuff and buy the programs. You want to incorporate what you read into your play as quickly as possible so it transfers to your subconscious instead of being forgotten.

    So now you’ve been playing a few hours a day for a couple of weeks, you’re getting a feel for things, and you’re starting to really digest the reading you’ve been getting into. You feel like an ace because you whallop the competition at the play money tables, and possibly for real money at the micro limits as well. Good job – believe me, it took me a lot longer than a few weeks, but then I didn’t have a guide to take me through it. By now you’ll have noticed that you don’t always win - sometimes you lose. Sometimes you lose a lot. Get used to it. It may be that you have leaks in your game that you need to plug. It may be that you moved up a level and the competition has gotten tougher. Probably it’s just natural variance that everyone, pros included, experience on a regular basis. Take good care of your bankroll, focus on long-term results, and you’ll be fine. Remember, an individual game of poker isn’t just a game; it’s a tiny piece of one big lifelong game where the results are measured, not in pot sizes or number of hands won, but in hourly rates averaged out over hundreds and thousands of games.

    Now it’s time to start making money. What you NEED to do is learn to effectively multi-table. This is absolutely key to Sit’n’Go success. Because the decisions are relatively simple and can be made without much conscious effort (once you learn how – unconscious competence requires experience), you can run 4, 6, 12, or maybe even more games at a time. Some people stagger their games; others join new games continually without regard to start times. Personally, I prefer to get up to my max number of tables as quickly as possible, then join a new game as soon as one ends. Whichever way you decide, it’s going to get hectic. Have Mom hold all your calls. Now, playing 12 tables is going to be difficult on a single monitor, so get yourself a second computer or just another monitor and set it up as an extension – this can be done with most video cards, and if you ask a computer tech, I’m sure he’ll be thrilled to show off his ‘l33t skills’ by helping you out. N00b. You could use a single monitor and cascade your tables rather than tiling them, but I find that things get confusing fast and tables start getting lost, so I think you’re better off to spend a couple hundred bucks and do things right. And speaking of doing things right, get yourself a comfy chair and a decent desk, in a nice quiet room with a pleasant décor. You’ll thank me in a few weeks.

    The reason multi-tabling is so necessary is really quite simple – more games equals more profits. You will play marginally better with less tables, but the math is brutally clear. First, assume the average SnG takes 36 minutes - winning takes longer, but you won’t always win. So for each table you have open, you play 1.67 games per hour. Let’s give Simple Sam an unrealistically huge 40% ROI (Return On Investment) playing at one $16 table at a time. That’s $26.67 invested per hour times 0.4 for a net $10.67/hr. Not bad. Now we’ll give Quick Quincey a fairly weak 10% ROI at the same tables, playing 12 tables at a time. That’s $320 invested per hour times 0.1 for a net $32/hr. I know who I’d rather be. And you know what? Those ROIs were exaggerated for the sake of the example. In reality, at these stakes a winning player should be able to earn a 25% ROI if he gives each game total focus, and around 18% if he multi-tables like I’m suggesting. Think about what I’m telling you, and then think about what the difference in earnings means to you. Personally I prefer Earl’s to McDonald’s, but you’re entitled to an opinion.

    Make sure that when you play, you keep a record of your time at the tables, money invested, and money earned. This gives you feedback, keeps you accountable, and gives you solid proof you can show to your girlfriend the next time she yells at you to get a real job. She’ll change her tune when you show her the profits column. You have a real job, it’s called poker, and it kicks ass.

    Oh yeah, I almost forgot - at the start of this article I promised you an ambitious $50k a year working part time, and I intend to deliver. Are you ready? OK, here we go: I define part-time as 20hrs/week, and there are about 50 weeks in a year, which makes for one thousand working hours in a year. Eventually you should be able to make your way to the $27 level and earn a respectable 10% ROI there. 12-tabling at 36 minutes per game gives you 20 games an hour. That’s $540 invested per hour for a net gain of $54/hr. Multiply that by one thousand hours, and hey-presto, you got yourself $54,000, kid! Love it. Then realize that with practice you can probably earn a higher ROI and can definitely move up in stakes at some point – not to mention bonus-hunting (a subject for another article), which can increase your profit by a few thousand bucks a year. Now love me for showing you the way.

    So there you have it. Learn the basics, read the literature, get the software, start multi-tabling, set up a proper space, keep good records, and practice, practice, practice. You’ll notice that I haven’t given you any tips on how to play the game, nor promised you that this won’t take a lot of dedication, hard work, and practice – the tips are in the reading, and if you think ANYTHING can be achieved without effort, well, go smoke another one. What I have given you is a road map to follow. Let me know how you do. I’m on that road myself, and a few (a FEW – don’t go showing this to all your friends because the more winning players there are, the less profits I make) friends along the way never hurts.
  2. #2
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    If you read the FAQ above, its got links to all of the experiments run, I tend to think the earlier ones are better examples of actual SnG play, because the style has adapted to reflect the fact that we all tend to recognise how each other will play, so mix things up more than you would in a normal 'random' one.

    I think 36 mins to 12-table a set of turbos is a bit ambitious, but other than that the theories sounds.
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  3. #3
    Nice post, thanks for posting this! Just a few comments:

    - I think it is tough to maintain a 10% ROI at the $27 turbos over the long term if you are 12-tabling. As I said in another post, whilst I am a long long way from being amongst the best $27 players, I do think I am in the top 5-10%. I only play 2 tables at once (because I play more for the challenge than for the money) and my ROI fluctuates between 8-12%. From what I have heard, it is even more difficult to sustain a 10% ROI at the $60 turbos - if you read 2+2, there have been many players who have tried on marathon sessions 12-16 tabling and they haven't managed to do it.

    - I think it is important to emphasise the fact that there will be SICK variance in this game. Playing your A game throughout a downswing can be very tough. Everybody hoping to earn a regular income from the game should read Matthew Hilger's The Poker Mindset. Bit of a glib saying, but I've heard it said that mastering the skill of poker is the easy part, but mastering the luck is the hard part.

    - Bankroll management cannot be over-emphasised. If you are counting on poker for an income, you need to maintain a bankroll of at least 100 buyins in my opinion.

    - Sitting at a computer playing poker for 20 hours a week is not everybody's cup of tea. Playing poker can be a very lonely, isolating existence without the usual banter and camaraderie of a normal workplace. Sites like this and making friends over MSN/AIM can help but IMO it's no substitute for real life human contact.

    That said, I think it is definitely possible to earn a reasonable side income from playing SNGs, but it will be very tough at times with big up and downswings that can break some people.

    Mattiesmat and Detroit, you guys have done it, any comments?
  4. #4
    Hmm interesting post. Didn't read it all but some good points.
    This is actually my first month playing full time.
    My job wasn't much so making the hourly i was @ the job should not be hard.

    The way i look @ it , this and "the other" forum are pretty much my college.
    I hope to never work for "the man" again , but I'm not saying i don't wish i had went to college and had a profession/backup plan but i didn't and i don't.
    I've always been attracted to easy laid back ways of making money.
    From age 14-20 a majority of my income was made selling drugs w/out any long term employment , so once i learned poker it really drew me in.
    Good thing with poker is it's not illegal and your not risking you life. The downside is it's lots of grinding (@ least with low/med BI sng's) and studying to get good enough to eventually make a decent amount of money.

    I have a lot of dreams for myself in this poker world and i hope they eventually fall in place , but i understand it's going to take a ton of grinding and a whole lot of improving. I wasn't fortunate enough to go to college or get into one of the Big Three , and there really isn't any opportunities , at least here in michigan unless you have people connected in good jobs , or have a college/training school education , so for me i really don't have much to lose by deciding to quit and pursue my dream.
    By the end of 2008 i hope to be playing the 60's and want to do some crazy grinding @ them in 2009 and go for SNE which would = me having to play around 40k 60's for 2009. Not the most realistic goal but if i can be @ the 60's by say OCT this year and can actually beat them for something even as little as 3% I'm definitly gonna go for it. If i pulled it off i could make welll over 100k in 2009 @ 3% for 40k 60's + all the milestones/bonuses. If this all somehow magically comes to life than i would want to invest , and open a family business with my father so i would never have to grind out that many SNG's in a year again.

    I also agree 10% ROI @ the 27s long term playing 12+ tables is pretty ambitious.

    Hmmm my rant is done. lol
  5. #5
    I am just another learning player, so read my comments (very) open minded.
  6. #6
    Keilah's Avatar
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    Hey guys, thanks for the replies - especially Detroit and Mattie.

    Detroit, it's great to hear from someone who has a dream and is excited to chase it. Go for it man! And just FYI - I DID go to college and have a backup/safety net, and I consider it a TERRIBLE waste of time. Not because 'now I have poker and all my problems are solved' but because I was chasing a sub-par goal with my education. If you ever do go to school, go because you're chasing a dream. No other reason is worth years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars.

    Matitie, thanks for some words of warning from a person who's been there. I've thought about some of the same things quite a bit.
    The lack of socializing while playing poker is a HUGE factor in why I'm only suggesting poker as a part-time job. Sitting at a computer for 8 hours a day is NOT the road to happiness. (Maybe 4 hr/day is? Ha! Ha!)
    The bit about this job not being helpful to society is another big deal. What's the answer to this? Am I somehow providing a service by outcompeting the casual players? I don't really think so. But I can give a service by helping other players improve their game. In fact, I know this kid who dropped out of school, sold drugs for a while, and now works two semi-crappy p/t jobs as well as babysitting just to scrape by, and I explained to him how this grinding business works. If I can pull him out of poverty by teaching him this skill, well - that's worthwhile.
    Boring? Well, yeah, it is. That's a downside - but I think of my time at the SnG's as not just an income, but also an investment in myself - I'm perfecting shortstack poker. I imagine that'll come in handy when I win the WSOP in a few years ;] Besides, I DO like playing poker. It's still fun to play a flop in the midgame, bet the flop, get reraised all-in, and make a tough decision to call. Doesn't even matter if I win or lose, it's still a rush!
    Honestly, variance is not a huge deal to me. It'll happen, I can plan for it, I still know I'll be making a profit in the long run. It's all mental game.

    As for the numbers: 36 minutes per game is drawn from my own experience, so I'm sticking to my guns on that one.
    10% ROI at $27 was taken from a chart (http://www.sitandgoplanet.com/sitand...urly_Rate.html) someone else made (my BR doesn't support $27 yet), so I could be wrong there. But I already make about $40/hr, and that combined with rakebacks would come close to meeting my $50k/year goal - And I think I can do better than I currently am. So I'll stick to my $50k guns too.

    I think the biggest thing is making SURE you have other social outlets! You're basically dissapearing off the face of the planet for 20 hours a week, get out there for the rest of it!!!
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Keilah
    I'm perfecting shortstack poker. I imagine that'll come in handy when I win the WSOP in a few years ;]
    You know that the WSOP ME is famous for being one of the slowest, deepest stacked tourneys around. Starting stacks 10,000, first level 25/50 (so M = 133) and 2 hour levels.
  8. #8
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    Ahh, reread your post, you run new tables continuously, so 36 is an average. I run one full set before starting another, and theres no way a set would finish in 36 mins (at least you'd hope that, its probably a bad thing).
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  9. #9
    Keilah's Avatar
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    Ahh, cmon Taipan, why you gotsta rain on my parade like that? =p

    I imagine I'll be switching to MTTs/Cash at some point. But right now SnGs are the ticket for me. I'm actually not that amazing at poker, but SnGs are just so simple.
  10. #10
    but such a damn grind!!!!
    Beer is living proof that God loves and wants us to be happy- Benjamin Franklin
  11. #11
    The better you are the longer the average SNG takes Mine takes 1 hour at least at avg!!! no joke
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Keilah
    I'm actually not that amazing at poker, but SnGs are just so simple.
    Personally I think this is the wrong attitude. SNGs may not be as complex as deep stacked cash games or huge MTTs with a lot of tough players, but certainly as you move up buyins they do have their challenges. Each situation is different depending on stack sizes, reads, position etc. so to describe SNGs as "so simple" means you are probably running hot right now.
  13. #13
    Keilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taipan168
    Quote Originally Posted by Keilah
    I'm actually not that amazing at poker, but SnGs are just so simple.
    Personally I think this is the wrong attitude. SNGs may not be as complex as deep stacked cash games or huge MTTs with a lot of tough players, but certainly as you move up buyins they do have their challenges. Each situation is different depending on stack sizes, reads, position etc. so to describe SNGs as "so simple" means you are probably running hot right now.
    I do think that practically eliminating postflop play from the game makes things a lot simpler, but you certainly could be right. And I might even just be running hot - I've only got about 400 recorded SnGs under my belt. Hopefully it's my practice and skills that've been seeing me through!
  14. #14
    400 a pretty small sample size, but sounds like you are on a good track....

    I dont know about "practically eliminating postflop play".
    Postflop skills come in very handy in SnGs- I can think of two stages right off the bat:

    1. low blinds/early- definitely room for postflop maneuvering.

    2. on or right after the bubble when there are 3-4 equal stacks and everyones pretty deep- granted you dont see this in every SnG , but you will run into fairly often in my experience.

    In these situations, skill after the flop becomes another weapon in your arsenal that you can draw upon. Elements like analyzing the texture of the flop, position, stack sizes, whether to make a cbet or not, whether to fire a second barrell cbet, how to maximize value from monster hands, etc.
    Beer is living proof that God loves and wants us to be happy- Benjamin Franklin
  15. #15
    Keilah's Avatar
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    Pracitcally, not completely. In most SnGs, I play something like 5 hands postflop before we get down to heads-up, and rarely do any of those reach the turn.
    You are right though, we need to bring to bear every weapon we've got, every time.
  16. #16
    Thanks a lot for your advice. I consider myself slightly above average, but never really took a dip into the turbo sngs. After reading this post and your links, i can already see a huge increase in my hourly earnings. Using the SNG Wiz helped not only my SNG skills, but also short stack play in MTT(as someone pointed out). Traker and Pokerace work fine though. If you're looking to make a pretty consistent income, this may be your best, and least stressful, way of reaching that goal.
  17. #17
    Keilah's Avatar
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    Glad to be of service. Good luck!

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