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[Hand of the Week by donkbee] Week 1 - AJ in MP with 20 BBs (Part 3 Released!)

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  1. #1
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Default [Hand of the Week by donkbee] Week 1 - AJ in MP with 20 BBs (Part 3 Released!)

    Hey MTT/SNG grinders,

    We are starting a new video series called Hand of the Week. Fellow FTR member Courtney Gee (donkbee) will be releasing 2-3 short videos each week talking about how to play a specific MTT or SNG hand in a tough spot. We hope to generate some interesting discussion and help some players improve their game.

    Link to the video below:
    -----
    Part I - Week 1A - AJ in MP with 20 BBs in an MTT (Preflop)

    Description: This is the start of a new video series called Hand of the Week. In this video, Courtney Gee, known as donkbee, looks at a trouble spot some MTT grinders find themselves in - a decent hand (AJo) in MP with a 20 BB stack. Courtney looks at what Hero decided to do preflop and what better options they had. Part II and III of the series to come which go into postflop play.

    Question: Do you think we should be min-raising with our entire range in this spot? Or are there hands where we can raise more than the minimum amount, or even just open jam?
    -----
    Part II - Week 1B - AJ in MP with 20 BBs in an MTT (Postflop)

    Description: Courtney continues from part I (which discussed preflop action) and expands into what to do if you're called out of position with AJ in MP with a 20 BB stack. She dives into a few different scenarios and different lines you could take in each. In Part III, Courtney will continue her postflop discussion, and talk about what to do if you miss the flop entirely.
    -----
    Part III - Week 1C - AJ in MP with 20 BBs in an MTT (Postflop)

    Description: In the conclusion of the first Hand of the Week segment, Courtney looks at how to play AJ out of position with 20 BBs when you miss the flop entirely. There are a few lines you can take, depending on the board and how villain plays. What did you think of our new series? Did Courtney play this hand correctly?
    -----
    Please post any questions, comments or feedback in this thread.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by givememyleg; 02-20-2012 at 06:35 PM.
  2. #2
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    great vid-series idea.
    i'll watch it after i've finished my morning session
    cheers
  3. #3
    donkbee's Avatar
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    People that know how to play poker probably won't find this hand very interesting. It's very basic. Leave comments anyway
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/
  4. #4
    bikes's Avatar
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    i expected a tough spot and then we insta opened jammed =(

    ?wut
  5. #5
    donkbee's Avatar
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    I am confirmed not good enough at poker to make videos about actual tough spots
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/
  6. #6
    bikes's Avatar
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    lies and slander.

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  7. #7
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    tourney fish checking in
    2-2.5x pretty much our entire range in this spot
    don't open jam anything.
  8. #8
    Nakamura's Avatar
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    Cool, nice voice!

    I think you can open-jam some of the lower pocket pairs unexploitably, whereas playing them profitably OOP off a 20bb stack is hard.

    If you min-raise/fold 22-88, some strong Ax, Axs some broadways and SCs your calling to folding ratio becomes pretty unbalanced.
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    Interesting question. If your table image (or HUD stats) are reasonably tight I think that the minraise is a good idea since it's unlikely that anybody will try to steal shove over so I think depending on the buyin you should end up with the blinds + antes reasonably often.

    With the antes our effective stack is about 11-12x BB so the SNG player in me would just tend to open shove, but I can see how minraising is a better tactic.
  10. #10
    2.2x
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakamura View Post
    Cool, nice voice!

    I think you can open-jam some of the lower pocket pairs unexploitably, whereas playing them profitably OOP off a 20bb stack is hard.

    If you min-raise/fold 22-88, some strong Ax, Axs some broadways and SCs your calling to folding ratio becomes pretty unbalanced.
    The only problem with shoving some of your range and minraising some of your range is that shove stops being unexploitable. All those charts you see assume you are shoving 100% of those hands, so when you take some out (minraise some), your shove range isnt actually unexploitable.

    I'm 2.2x/folding pre antes, and shoving with antes in hand in OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sykedupp View Post
    The only problem with shoving some of your range and minraising some of your range is that shove stops being unexploitable. All those charts you see assume you are shoving 100% of those hands, so when you take some out (minraise some), your shove range isnt actually unexploitable.

    I'm 2.2x/folding pre antes, and shoving with antes in hand in OP.
    Why can't you just create two balanced ranges?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    Why can't you just create two balanced ranges?
    You can, but aside from flipping a coin (50% of the time ill just minraise AA/KK/AJo/etc and 50% of the time ill just cram), the maths involved seem too complex in a situation like this.
    The overall equity difference between shoving and minraising is very small, but its just so much more work when you have a bunch of tables up to squeeze out the extra .3 bbs in this particular spot IMO (what with postflop play, when to bluff-shove QTx flops, when to call off check/raises on QJ4 flops, how to play AKT when you get check/jammed, etc etc etc). The possible scenarios that arise make the hand infinitely more difficult to play, for basically no cEV gain.


    Put this tourney a little deeper and then all those things play a bigger factor.


    ib4imabuttonpusher ... sometimes early on thats the way to go :P
    Last edited by Sykedupp; 02-15-2012 at 04:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sykedupp View Post
    The overall equity difference between shoving and minraising is very small
    I have no idea how to quantify it, but I strongly disagree w this statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/
  15. #15
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    your decision here should play more into the people behind you rather than being perfectly balanced. the equity difference between shoving and 2.2xing can be gigantic if the right or wrong people are behind you. all of these little things you describe are so important in poker i don't see how you can dismiss them when people can 24 table cash successfully with far deeper stacks with far more complicated scenarios

    ?wut
  16. #16
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    All those charts you see
    Kill Everyone has charts that show spots where shoving is > folding based on your stack & expected calling ranges. You don't have to shove all those hands to make the other jams profitable, you just shouldn't fold them since for sure you win chips jamming. Obviously calling ranges may adjust if they figure out which ones you aren't jamming but they would need to have played more hands against you than seems possible in order to do this because there are so many other variables in play.
  17. #17
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    also, can you post the HH? meh videos
  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by courtiebee View Post
    I have no idea how to quantify it, but I strongly disagree w this statement.

    it'll be pretty easy to figure out exactly how +cEV open jamming is, assuming we can agree on a range to put on anyone who would call... But yeah, to find out how +cEV r/f is (I assume we're almost never r/c except vs retarded 60/50 type villians), we'd have to do a bunch of postflop stuff that is well beyond my maths knowledge.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikes View Post
    your decision here should play more into the people behind you rather than being perfectly balanced. the equity difference between shoving and 2.2xing can be gigantic if the right or wrong people are behind you. all of these little things you describe are so important in poker i don't see how you can dismiss them when people can 24 table cash successfully with far deeper stacks with far more complicated scenarios
    This is true in situations like having a 45/35/30%3bet kind of player behind when you can r/c easily enough... But I dont think any of those reads were given during the hand so it's hard to say if that kind of player is behind us.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post
    Kill Everyone has charts that show spots where shoving is > folding based on your stack & expected calling ranges. You don't have to shove all those hands to make the other jams profitable, you just shouldn't fold them since for sure you win chips jamming. Obviously calling ranges may adjust if they figure out which ones you aren't jamming but they would need to have played more hands against you than seems possible in order to do this because there are so many other variables in play.
    Cool... The only chart I've ever looked at is a shortstack chart (7m and below) that shows unexploitable shoving ranges from each position depending on your M.

    That Kill Everyone chart sounds like it'd be pretty nice
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  21. #21
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    I'm absolutely flabbergasted we are open jamming without considering who is behind us. If people are coldcalling/defending a lot(small 3b to 4bb IP etc.w/ a balanced range) then yes open jam because we are not going to flop very well when we are cold called and getting small 4b is kind of puke.

    If people are reshipping wide without coldcalling much then this is just lol raise/call

    If people are 3bing small or folding and not coldcalling we should be minopen/deciding.

    If people are coldcalling quite a bit we should be raising a little bigger so discourage people from flatting hands we don't want to see flops with and discourage people from flatting IP.

    Saying A is > B is > C is just silly without reads on the players behind us.

    People saying the "eV is only a little different" for each option are OBVIOUSLY right since stacks are so small and we have a hand we are going with a lot of the time. What these people should try to understand is that this is a spot that is going to come up OVER and OVER so if you are making a .2bb mistake pre-flop here. You are probably making the same .2bb mistake hundreds of times a year. This ofcourse is going to be a huge leak and should be addressed by looking at all the options and figuring out what is THE BEST option as opposed to "they are all pretty much the same lets just do random shit"

    Saying open jamming > minopening > 2.5xing is just silly.

    edit:cool series by the way, the simpler the hands the better imo. Most peoples leaks comes from these pre-flop spots anyway. Not from some ridiculous close river spot where you can literally flip a coin on call or fold and it's not going to make any difference to your long term eV
  22. #22
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    Nice post, can't argue with that. Definitly possible I'm misplaying these types of hands by having my 'default' play be shoving.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  23. #23
    Here's a thing I struggle with:

    If bet-sizing impacts BB's calling range...don't we want him to call wider?

    how does this change when we have AJo or AA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    Here's a thing I struggle with:

    If bet-sizing impacts BB's calling range...don't we want him to call wider?

    how does this change when we have AJo or AA?
    AJo is not a good hand postflop 20bb deep. It's so easy for someone to just flop anything and get us to fold basically. A hand like 97s is doing REALLY well v us pre-flop and they are getting amazing pot odds. If he is is going to be defending 20%(and most of this consists of 3bing) v a 2.5x but defending 30% v a 2x. We want to be 2.5xing. BB can basically defend a tonne and c/f a tonne if we are minraising.

    If you don't understand this I believe you probably are not defending your BB enough in shortstack situations(edit: In any situation probably). Folding like 97o is a pretty huge mistake v a super wide btn steal range(60%) if it's a minraise. People used to say oh you shouldn't defend if you are going to be just c/f a tonne cause it's lighting money on fire but this is just a retarded bullshit way to reduce variance in the short term as any edge we gain decreases it in the long term. Basically filter for hands you are flatting in the BB at the moment. Remember anything > -1bb is a huge huge success. If you are doing much better then this at the moment with your flatting range v steals then you should add in another teir of hands.
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    I have something to ask of the people opting to open jam as it's obviously not going to be super incorrect but probably almost never max eV.

    When do you start jam/folding HU?
  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet View Post
    AJo is not a good hand postflop 20bb deep. It's so easy for someone to just flop anything and get us to fold basically. A hand like 97s is doing REALLY well v us pre-flop and they are getting amazing pot odds. If he is is going to be defending 20%(and most of this consists of 3bing) v a 2.5x but defending 30% v a 2x. We want to be 2.5xing. BB can basically defend a tonne and c/f a tonne if we are minraising.

    If you don't understand this I believe you probably are not defending your BB enough in shortstack situations(edit: In any situation probably). Folding like 97o is a pretty huge mistake v a super wide btn steal range(60%) if it's a minraise. People used to say oh you shouldn't defend if you are going to be just c/f a tonne cause it's lighting money on fire but this is just a retarded bullshit way to reduce variance in the short term as any edge we gain decreases it in the long term. Basically filter for hands you are flatting in the BB at the moment. Remember anything > -1bb is a huge huge success. If you are doing much better then this at the moment with your flatting range v steals then you should add in another teir of hands.
    I understand that we're not flopping anything most of the time but surely vs. a wide defending range we're doing fine.

    Is the extra fold equity gained offset by the fact that we're playing against a stronger range when they call? Surely we'd rather have them call with A7o and JTo than fold those hands?
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    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    I understand that we're not flopping anything most of the time but surely vs. a wide defending range we're doing fine.

    Is the extra fold equity gained offset by the fact that we're playing against a stronger range when they call? Surely we'd rather have them call with A7o and JTo than fold those hands?
    Who do you think is playing more incorrectly. The guy shove/folding v a 2.5x with 20% of his range when we have AJo or the guy flatting 10% and shoving 20% v a 2x when we have AJo. Also in this situation I think flatting A7o is quite terrible based on positions and how atrocious A7o flops v the opening range we have here. However if they are flatting crappy Ax when we minraise then yes ofcourse we should be minraising because they will have a difficult time offsetting the disadvantage of having crappy Ax OOP pre-flop. They should really be 3b or folding a hand like this v our opening range. Hands that should be flatting are hands we will NOT besides some combos of Jx.

    Answer that and you should your answer.

    I'm not saying this 100% black and white but this is the closest to correct I can come up with. If someone can come up with a really good argument for playing it differently then I would love to hear it.

    edit: About this being 100% black and white. I mean in HU poker 9bb-15bb situations are SO unsolved that is going to be impossible to know what is 100% right. Now if you take this statement and apply it to a situation like this where everyone has say an M of 10 in a donkament the situations are going to be impossible to solve. The big problem with how most people learn short stack poker(M < 10) is everyone learns how to shove/fold and stops right there. There is SO many possiblities when stacks get to this depth.

    Once again I will state you should look at decisions based on what is most +eV, not what is +eV as I think this is the most important thing for everyone to come out of this thread with.
    Last edited by Icanhastreebet; 02-17-2012 at 11:05 AM.
  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet View Post
    I'm absolutely flabbergasted we are open jamming without considering who is behind us.
    I agree that this is a leak many online players have. But it usually doesn't end up being that big of a leak because it is a rare situation when you will have enough hands to actually have a good read on your remaining players.

    How often are we really going to know if the players behind us are reshipping wide?

    How often are we really going to know if the players behind us are coldcalling fiends?

    In most tournaments, these reads are going to be based on maybe one or two previous hands that we have seen. I am not saying that these reads should be totally discounted, but as a fallback knowing that shoving is better than folding here is what is most important. Should we always be thinking about what play is optimal? Of course. Are we usually going to have enough information in a tourney so that we can be pretty certain that the play we are making is optimal? Almost never.

    This is just one of those situations that I don't think matters that much. Shoving as a fallback seems fine to me. Minraising as a fallback seems fine too.
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  29. #29
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    The next segment of this hand has been released:

    Part II - Week 1B - AJ in MP with 20 BBs in an MTT (Postflop)

    Description: Courtney continues from part I (which discussed preflop action) and expands into what to do if you're called out of position with AJ in MP with a 20 BB stack. She dives into a few different scenarios and different lines you could take in each. In Part III, Courtney will continue her postflop discussion, and talk about what to do if you miss the flop entirely.

    The discussion so far has been interesting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chardrian View Post
    I agree that this is a leak many online players have. But it usually doesn't end up being that big of a leak because it is a rare situation when you will have enough hands to actually have a good read on your remaining players.

    How often are we really going to know if the players behind us are reshipping wide?

    How often are we really going to know if the players behind us are coldcalling fiends?

    In most tournaments, these reads are going to be based on maybe one or two previous hands that we have seen. I am not saying that these reads should be totally discounted, but as a fallback knowing that shoving is better than folding here is what is most important. Should we always be thinking about what play is optimal? Of course. Are we usually going to have enough information in a tourney so that we can be pretty certain that the play we are making is optimal? Almost never.

    This is just one of those situations that I don't think matters that much. Shoving as a fallback seems fine to me. Minraising as a fallback seems fine too.
    Not going to disagree with any of this.
  31. #31
    good thread
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  32. #32
    Re: QJ5hh flop, if we are bet/folding all streets how do you feel about smaller sizing?
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  33. #33
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    Depending on the opponent, I am probably not bet/folding the flop. Reads help and sizing matters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/
  34. #34
    I always found that betsizing postflop with these stacks to be really tough. Despite a perfect flop and turn for AJ on the J75s board, if your not careful you can make the strength of your hand really clear. I think you do that when you bet 800 of your 1800 on a blank turn (you look super strong). Most of the time I think you should either be checking or shoving the turn.

    On a really dry flop you could decide to bet flop and turn for ~1/3rd pot and shove river. On most other boards I'd rather just set up for a turn shove, especially out of position.

    I think bikes nailed it about preflop:
    your decision here should play more into the people behind you rather than being perfectly balanced.
    Char is also right about almost never having enough info, but if you always think that, your play can easily become too robotic. A lot of people open really tightly with 20bbs no matter what, even if there's a really poor player in the blinds who you can take advantage of
  35. #35
    Can we discuss overbet jamming in spots where we have TPTK on a reasonably drawy flop?

    I know this is frowned upon by some; I used to do this when I first started playing but I read somewhere that it was bad so I stopped. But why?

    If we have 12 BBs to start the hand I'm pretty sure no one would object to open-shipping it pre into a pot of 3 BBs; if there's a raise and a call and we have AK in the BB, we can shove all day, so why can't we ship TPTK OOP for ~17.5 BBs into a pot of 6.5 BBs or so? Jx calls, flush draws call, and a lot of people can level themselves into calling with a small pocket pair thinking you missed or have a draw and we lose action on a lot of turn/rivers.
    Last edited by baudib; 02-19-2012 at 07:26 AM.
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  36. #36
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    The final segment, Part III, has been released:

    Part III - Week 1C - AJ in MP with 20 BBs in an MTT (Postflop)

    Description: In the conclusion of the first Hand of the Week segment, Courtney looks at how to play AJ out of position with 20 BBs when you miss the flop entirely. There are a few lines you can take, depending on the board and how villain plays. What did you think of our new series? Did Courtney play this hand correctly?
  37. #37
    on KTxdd flop, I'd assume most competent villains are shoving over when we bet larger, are we comfortable getting it in here?
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  38. #38
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    I had to watch my own videos again because when I read some of the questions, I had no idea what they were talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by fjuanl View Post
    Despite a perfect flop and turn for AJ on the J75s board, if your not careful you can make the strength of your hand really clear. I think you do that when you bet 800 of your 1800 on a blank turn (you look super strong).
    I'm not sure which hand you are talking about... video two shows a turn bet of 800 into a 1595 pot.

    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    Can we discuss overbet jamming in spots where we have TPTK on a reasonably drawy flop?

    I know this is frowned upon by some; I used to do this when I first started playing but I read somewhere that it was bad so I stopped. But why?

    If we have 12 BBs to start the hand I'm pretty sure no one would object to open-shipping it pre into a pot of 3 BBs; if there's a raise and a call and we have AK in the BB, we can shove all day, so why can't we ship TPTK OOP for ~17.5 BBs into a pot of 6.5 BBs or so? Jx calls, flush draws call, and a lot of people can level themselves into calling with a small pocket pair thinking you missed or have a draw and we lose action on a lot of turn/rivers.
    Pushing that flop is +EV but it's not gonna be optimal. People are more likely to call with flush draws when the bets are smaller. We also want 2nd or 3rd pair to call us, but they are much less likely to do so when the bet is huge. People often call standard sized cbets with 2nd and 3rd pair.


    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    on KTxdd flop, I'd assume most competent villains are shoving over when we bet larger, are we comfortable getting it in here?
    It really depends on the villain. In the games I play, a competent villain isn't usually shoving here. I can't think of much I would shove here myself (if I'm the villain). If I have Kx, I probably wanna call. I probably min raise or something if I wanna raise. I dunno though, someone else can chime in if they want.

    Also, a bet of 500 into 800 isn't so big that someone is automatically gonna become suspicious. It's a pretty standard sized bet for some people on a flop texture like that.
    Last edited by donkbee; 02-21-2012 at 01:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/
  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    I'm not sure which hand you are talking about... video two shows a turn bet of 800 into a 1595 pot.
    Yep that's the right hand. You had 1800 chips left on the turn and bet almost half your stack
  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjuanl View Post
    Yep that's the right hand. You had 1800 chips left on the turn and bet almost half your stack
    Oh okay sorry, I see what you mean now.

    I can understand what you are saying. I think that betting bigger on the flop and jamming the turn can be fine. I don't like it as much, though. If you bet the flop bigger and then jam the turn, I think we overall get less value from stuff like flush draws and smaller pairs. I also think that you overestimate how strong our range looks. To many MTT players, I feel like it looks like it's small enough for them to call another street and see what happens on the river.

    I say all of the above assuming the villain isn't a solid player. If we know he is competent, I think that betting the flop bigger and jamming the turn is probably better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/
  41. #41
    givememyleg's Avatar
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    Glad to see all of the discussion here. Week 2 will be released on Monday, 2/27.

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