Shortstacking 20bb's - discuss

I know there are a lot of arguments against it, but ignoring those for the time being what changes would you make to your strategy if you were trying to apply shortstacking.

(For myself I am currently raising my regular 6 max hands incl. more pp's (+-5 bb), I almost always c bet(90% of the time 40-80% of the pot) & am often pot commited at that point.)



I am having a lot of success with it at the moment, just looking for ways to improve it.

I love shortstacking. Its incredibly easy to get half-stacks repeatedly with TPTK. But, you do need to count on hitting top pair top kicker pretty often CBetting anything youre willing to put your stack on is a good way to go.

Draws are worthless, your implied odds are almost never there. This killed me. I almost never got my 5:1 implied odds and I went for my flushdraws and straightdraws anyway. Gotta be careful there. Repeat

I started limping pocketpairs, because especially 20bb deep you just dont the odds otherwise. PPs really lose value shortstacked, and really gain value fullstacked.

Oh, and dont buyin for even amounts. Like at 50NL dont buy in for $20 or $25. I like $23.72 myself.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Oh, and dont buyin for even amounts. Like at 50NL dont buy in for $20 or $25. I like $23.72 myself.

Makes it look like you are on tilt and this is the last of your BR?

Exactly.


*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to euphoricism [Ah Qc]
Munterpipe: folds
JackJack22: raises $0.75 to $1
ipoplls: folds
A010A: raises $2.50 to $3.50
euphoricism: raises $7.75 to $11.25 and is all-in
capt.janni: folds
JackJack22: folds
A010A: calls $7.75
*** FLOP *** [4c 6h 6c]
*** TURN *** [4c 6h 6c] [5h]
*** RIVER *** [4c 6h 6c 5h] [2c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
euphoricism: shows [Ah Qc] (a pair of Sixes)
A010A: mucks hand


clark52: posts small blind $0.10
pegs13: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to euphoricism [Js As]
KyleBiggs84: folds
KyleBiggs84 said, "gl ev1"
KyleBiggs84 leaves the table
Saf Dude: calls $0.25
withnosoul: folds
euphoricism: raises $1 to $1.25
clark52: folds
pegs13: folds
Saf Dude: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Jh 2c 3c]
Saf Dude: checks
euphoricism: bets $10.05 and is all-in
Saf Dude: calls $9.15 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jh 2c 3c] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 2c 3c 5c] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Saf Dude: shows [4s 3h] (a straight, Ace to Five)

(yeah badbeat, but look at what theyll call with!)

Your moves should almost always be all-in or fold postflop. When a shortstack reraises a fullstack, it should send warning bells ringing. They want to be called. Easy read, and makes for easy decisions for the fullstack.

As a shortstack, you need to be always putting your opponents in tough spots that dont appear particularly tough and tricking them into thinking "eh whatever he's PROBABLY got nothing" or "Eh its only half a stack"

At the least, if the person does fold to your oversized all-in bet, it sets up that you "always" do that, youre probably just gambling, wanting to double or bust, and encourages other people call oversized bets in the future. "This guy pushes every hand, he could have second pair, third pair, nothing, i'll call"

I like to steal blinds a lot, thats probably just my personality, I'm still kinda "eh" about it as shortstack strategy.

Note: this was a BAD push. This was a BAD limp. But villain was a 88/10 that ive pushed on OVER and OVER and theyve folded every time so I went for it and it worked out.

PokerStars Game #7572613974: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/12/23 - 15:19:49 (ET)
Table 'Galilea' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: dennisa ($23.75 in chips)
Seat 2: TioRicoEdy1 ($57.70 in chips)
Seat 3: pseiko ($22.10 in chips)
Seat 4: gemini1978 ($48.10 in chips)
Seat 5: euphoricism ($14.05 in chips)
TioRicoEdy1: posts small blind $0.10
pseiko: posts big blind $0.25
mEoAnSeY1: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to euphoricism [5h Ah]
gemini1978: calls $0.25
euphoricism: calls $0.25
dennisa: folds
TioRicoEdy1: calls $0.15
pseiko: checks
*** FLOP *** [2h Ac Jc]
TioRicoEdy1: checks
pseiko: checks
gemini1978: bets $0.50
euphoricism: raises $13.30 to $13.80 and is all-in
TioRicoEdy1: folds
pseiko: folds
gemini1978: calls $13.30
*** TURN *** [2h Ac Jc] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [2h Ac Jc Kd] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
gemini1978: shows [Js 7c] (a pair of Jacks)
euphoricism: shows [5h Ah] (a pair of Aces)

Alright last post for proof of awesome:

I had a little tablechat going on before this (dont underestimate the power of pissing people off).

I picked up like AJ on the button and open pushed. He folded and said, "Nice job, got my $0.25" and I said, "That'll buy me what, an hour with your wife?" (which is a good one) and this hand followed maybe 5 hands later.


Kemper00: posts small blind $0.10
euphoricism: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to euphoricism [Jh Qs]
SkoopAloop: raises $0.75 to $1
Buzz_Czar: folds
KirekZ: folds
Kemper00: folds
euphoricism: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [7d Js Jc]
euphoricism: checks
SkoopAloop: bets $2
euphoricism: raises $9.10 to $11.10 and is all-in
SkoopAloop: calls $9.10
*** TURN *** [7d Js Jc] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [7d Js Jc 6h] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
euphoricism: shows [Jh Qs] (three of a kind, Jacks)
SkoopAloop: mucks hand
euphoricism collected $23.10 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $24.30 | Rake $1.20
Board [7d Js Jc 6h Ad]

Seat 3: SkoopAloop mucked [Ac Kd]

Woa woa woa, i just saw that OP wrote Shortstacking 20 BBs. Which I think is TOO SMALL. Buy in for 50bbs.

Is 7 posts in the same thread within nearly an hour a record?

there are so many bad players out there (applies to fish and most if not all regulars at these games) that I just don't understand why you don't want as much money on the table as possible. To each their own, I guess.

My dad used to play nothing but SNGs, but now he's starting to play cash games. He thinks shortstacking is the best way to go because he won't lose that much. He plays scared and probably isn't a winner because his thinking is all wrong.

If you're a good player you want the most money in front of you so when you actually win a big pot............you win a big pot.

You won't improve your poker game by shortstacking.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

My dad used to play nothing but SNGs, but now he's starting to play cash games. He thinks shortstacking is the best way to go because he won't lose that much. He plays scared and probably isn't a winner because his thinking is all wrong.

If you're a good player you want the most money in front of you so when you actually win a big pot............you win a big pot.

Its more than about just playing scared. Properly done its essentially its trading a few big doubleups for many half-sized ones. I'm hestitant to say which is "better", but in the era of the easy rathole, I can certainly say neither is "worse". Theyre entirely different styles with entirely different methods. Which one pays better is fairly impossible to determine, because there is no real statistically viable to test them against each other.

But really, how many times have you seen on this forum someone saying, "He's a shorty. so its an easy call." Next time you do that, just remember how much that mindset makes me.

Actually, plz dont.


Saying shortstacking wont improve your fullstack poker is a fairly stupid statement. Its not supposed to. Theyre very different approaches to the game.

Originally Posted by Lukie

there are so many good players out there (applies to nearly all regulars at these games) that dont have a fucking clue about how to play against good short stack i dont know why we dont all try it a few times a week/month.

fyp.
seriously, i found 200nl and 400nl players actually didnt have a clue what i was doing for a long enough time for me to run disgustingly good against their dumb calling ranges.
This was on stars too, and the time it took to adapt was laughable, for players who think they play goot.

Also, ir provides a small winner at certain stakes with a larger edge in most circumstances. I wouldalso suggest tht actually watching the games players sit in will perhaps provide them with info too. It shouldnt be about 'not losing more money' its a tactic to confuse opponents.

Originally Posted by Harry

You won't improve your poker game by shortstacking.

no but youll improve your bankroll. Same old arguement about do you play on stars or party.

Originally Posted by noble007

I know there are a lot of arguments against it, but ignoring those for the time being what changes would you make to your strategy if you were trying to apply shortstacking.

(For myself I am currently raising my regular 6 max hands incl. more pp's (+-5 bb), I almost always c bet(90% of the time 40-80% of the pot) & am often pot commited at that point.)



I am having a lot of success with it at the moment, just looking for ways to improve it.

you're playing too many hands (im not kidding either, if you only have 20bbs. It all about tp, not pps)

Doesn't Greenstein always buy in shortstacked?

Thanks for all those responses guys esp. euphoricism
loved that line about the guys wife.

I have been running at 21 bb/100 for the last 9000 hands or so at microstakes(since I tried this 20bb. approach.) so even though it may not be optimal I will probably continue using that amount until I start losing.

I would start with a non-even amount as suggested but my approach is to always reload to 20bb's, so that I always have that amount pretty much before each hand and as soon as I have gone up to 40bb's I leave the table.

Miffed you said I'm playing too many hands, what would you suggest I do with PP's (66 & lower) in mid to late position in unraised pots with maybe 1 caller, limp, raise or fold?

K10 off-suit is the weakest hand I raise with & only then in mid to late position, should I add anymore?
My stats at the moment are about 25/10.

If I am re-raised pre-flop by somebody with a lower than 12 pfr %, I generally fold AJ & below & pocket pairs JJ & below is that ok?
I feel they know I've only got 15 bb's left so they expect me to call so even the microstakes players generally don't do it unless they have a top 10 hand.

I know that 4 a better player it is more profitable to buy in for a higher amount,
but for a weaker player I think this may be a decent approach.
I will keep you posted as to my results. Thanks.

LoLoBumpadoodles. Shortstacking is the NUTS

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...standards.html


might help.

I've been playing 200nl with 20bbs for i guess 3 or 4 days, and the profit has been unbelievable.

My biggest concern now is some of the regs are starting to recognize my screenname. Thankfully, i get to change it every week.

Now i need a good one.

ROFL. I raise UTG with AK, some moron shoves over me with A9. Free Money baby!

Originally Posted by euphoricism

My biggest concern now is some of the regs are starting to recognize my screenname. Thankfully, i get to change it every week.

doesn't matter. notes carry over between name changes.

really? damn.

Originally Posted by noble007

Thanks for all those responses guys esp. euphoricism
loved that line about the guys wife.

I have been running at 21 bb/100 for the last 9000 hands or so at microstakes(since I tried this 20bb. approach.) so even though it may not be optimal I will probably continue using that amount until I start losing.

I would start with a non-even amount as suggested but my approach is to always reload to 20bb's, so that I always have that amount pretty much before each hand and as soon as I have gone up to 40bb's I leave the table.

Miffed you said I'm playing too many hands, what would you suggest I do with PP's (66 & lower) in mid to late position in unraised pots with maybe 1 caller, limp, raise or fold?

K10 off-suit is the weakest hand I raise with & only then in mid to late position, should I add anymore?
My stats at the moment are about 25/10.

If I am re-raised pre-flop by somebody with a lower than 12 pfr %, I generally fold AJ & below & pocket pairs JJ & below is that ok?
I feel they know I've only got 15 bb's left so they expect me to call so even the microstakes players generally don't do it unless they have a top 10 hand.

I know that 4 a better player it is more profitable to buy in for a higher amount,
but for a weaker player I think this may be a decent approach.
I will keep you posted as to my results. Thanks.

Wow this is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

Yeah this thread sucks, we should lock it and start a new one.

But there isnt a whole lot to talk about, so no real need to. Shortstacking is easy. If I were to write a bot, which im completely incapable of doing, nor would I try, it would shortstack.

Oh shit noble's FTR? Fuck me. Sorry for no content but he does not shortstack anymore. Anyone shortstack regularly?

For what it's worth, I prefer to play in the 40-60 range over the 20 range. 20 doesn't give you enough room to manipulate the pot or bluff past the flop, won't cap out the rake and it puts too much pressure on you to have showdown value. 50ish says "I might have something and if I do all of my money is going into this pot. So ask yourself, do you feel lucky punk?" I dislike 100 because it's really hard to get a good pot size for top pair sorts of hands unless you have an action pre-flop game. You don't need to be deep to out-chicken people playing way too many tables. I find that when I play these days I leave a lot of tables after winning a few small/medium pots.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Doesn't Greenstein always buy in shortstacked?

He does sometimes. He's also playing in games where has has enough sense to know that he's not gettting the way best of it when the deep money goes into the pot. He said something like "one of these days you'll play in games where you don't get excessive action on your best hands" on 2+2.

Originally Posted by Lukie

there are so many bad players out there (applies to fish and most if not all regulars at these games) that I just don't understand why you don't want as much money on the table as possible.

Tourney donks.

Originally Posted by kmind

Oh shit noble's FTR? Fuck me. Sorry for no content but he does not shortstack anymore. Anyone shortstack regularly?

I am, 20bbs at 200NL for the last 3 or 4 days. Making a f'n killing too.

I used to half-stack a lot, as I subscribe to fnords position of atleast giving me some room for postflop play, and TBH deep stack play is not particularly appealing to me. I like to get it in good and let the math take over the rest rather than as fnord put it, play a game of chicken. Wonder if thats the LHE in us coming through.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Yeah this thread sucks, we should lock it and not start a new one.

As long as I can do the following, I'll keep shortstacking...


Buck21: posts small blind $1
noMNYnoHNY: posts big blind $2
Dealt to IHeartUrMom [ Ks Kh ]
Weazy: raises to $4
IHeartUrMom: is all in
AllInVinR: folds
Buck21: folds
noMNYnoHNY: folds
Weazy: calls
*** FLOP *** [ Ad, 3s, 7s. ]
*** TURN *** [ 6s. ]
*** RIVER *** [ 3c. ]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IHeartUrMom wins $81 with Two Pairs, Kings and Threes

Villain shows QJo.

Originally Posted by Fnord

You don't need to be deep to out-chicken people playing way too many tables.

Evil thought of the day I shouldn't have posted:
When you buy-in for less than the max (but more than the min), the multi-Taggy-sorts will figure you for a fish and be less inclined to bluff you or call light and more inclined to wait for a hand.

BTW: If you're playing a lot of 20bb poker, you should buy a copy of Curtain's chart.

Originally Posted by Fnord

BTW: If you're playing a lot of 20bb poker, you should buy a copy of Curtain's chart.

Never heard of it. Explain?

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Originally Posted by Fnord

BTW: If you're playing a lot of 20bb poker, you should buy a copy of Curtain's chart.

Never heard of it. Explain?

Google it. He did all the math.

ummmm Fnord why are you encouraging short stacking? frjkewfhrewfh good short stacks ruin the games.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

ummmm Fnord why are you encouraging short stacking? frjkewfhrewfh good short stacks ruin the games.

Cry more, your tears quench my thirst...

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

ummmm Fnord why are you encouraging short stacking? frjkewfhrewfh good short stacks ruin the games.

Cry more, your tears quench my thirst...

lol pwned

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...page=7&fpart=1

Side benefit of shortstacking:

Since you can shortstack higher stakes than you'd usually play, your RB earnings shoot up. I'm earning 1ptbb/100 in RB shorting 200NL. This is equivalent to a 4ptbb/100 winrate at my usual stakes (50NL), which is not to far from what I was earning at 50NL when I was playing 100bb deep.

Holla!

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=FR&Number=12157664&page=7 &fpart=1

This thread seems misguided. He makes some good points and then fails to draw them to their conclusion.

. The worst thing you can do to a short stacker is raise his limps, raise his blinds and 3bet his raises.

Does he mean the BEST thing you can do for a shortstacker is to raise his limps, blinds, and 3bet him light?

Shorties limp for very specific reasons, and it ain't set camping. I've limp-shoved considerably more times than i've limped to see a flop.

Raising from the button against my blinds will get a lot of folds, but it'll get a lot of shoves too.

And 3betting a shorties raises light is absolutely silly. We WANT you to 3bet us light. That would be AWESOME. This guy seems to think we're raising preflop with junk. That couldn't be further from the truth. When a shorty raises pre, you should be seeing warning bells because the fundamental truth of shortstacks is that their small stack belies just how tight they really are.

Granted, he's talking full ring and I'm playing 6m. I'm not entirely sure that changes things, but it might.

i need to pay fnord to teach me how to make money

dear shorstackers,

plz kill yourself

Originally Posted by sauce123

dear shorstackers,

plz kill yourself

Cry more, your tears quench my thirst...

in all seriousness if you regularly read and post in an online poker forum and are unable to beat drunk mongoloids cashing in 50 dollars to soothe their latest scratch ticket debacle with a full stack plz quit poker.

if u understand the fundamentals of poker then optimal shortstack strategy is veeerrry easy to figure out but i wont post it here, u can figure it out if u understand how to use poker stove...

I lol'd. That has to be among your worst posts evar, sauce.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i need to pay fnord to teach me how to make money

Invest 70k. Wait 30 years.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I lol'd. That has to be among your worst posts evar, sauce.

I'm thinking it's time to spin off a half-stack post. I almost feel sick doing it.

Lately I've been buying in just enough to cover the fish. Ideal situation is fish with 100+BBs on my right, but if the fish only has 40BBs then I might as well have 40BBs myself. Cuts down on difficult decisions vs equally skilled/better opponents sitting behind me.

Usually I end up auto-clicking rebuy to 100BB's because I forget, though :P.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I lol'd. That has to be among your worst posts evar, sauce.

I'm thinking it's time to spin off a half-stack post. I almost feel sick doing it.

You can just PM me everything you know if you want.

I had halfstacked for a few weeks a while back with good success, but I always seemed to let someone talk me out of doing it. Frankly I am not particularly good once the 50th blind goes in, I feel my edge significantly drops.

Then in the case of an expert I can see how he doesnt particularly *need* the bets to get big to extract his edge, he makes up that small loss in EV for an exchange of exploitation. Not sure I'm wording that right.

In any case, screw a thread, I want a forum.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

And 3betting a shorties raises light is absolutely silly. We WANT you to 3bet us light. That would be AWESOME. This guy seems to think we're raising preflop with junk. That couldn't be further from the truth. When a shorty raises pre, you should be seeing warning bells because the fundamental truth of shortstacks is that their small stack belies just how tight they really are.

did you even read his post? the point is it doesn't matter how tight you are. maybe if your PFR was 2% then 3betting lite would be stupid. he made it ridiculously clear what a loose calling range you need to break even. when a shortstacker loses fold equity, he loses a lot of his edge.

i LOVE playing against short stackers. like...it's 20bb, OMG THAT IS SO MUCH MONEY!!! WHY AM I FOLDING???? it makes calling down lite so easy, and you're never that far behind.

The main crux of the expert's (not that I am one... yet) shortstack strategy is not exploiting fold equity. That idea is ridiculous. You can't force someone to fold for 20bb. Fold Equity is not even remotely "a lot of his edge"

The crux of the strategy is play better cards than the full stacks and let the math sort itself out. We recognize that people stack off lightly against shortstacks, and in that aspect the concept of a shortstack who thinks he can make you fold is laughable at best.

3betting me light preflop is stupid because I'm not raising bad hands preflop. If you're 3betting me preflop, you really should have a premium hand because I'm going loloshoveadoodles a lot, and you can't fold. If you do this with a weaker hand, you're going to be all in with the worst of it, and this makes me money. I think most people realize this, but its the complete opposite of what he states in that thread.

In fact he states (talking about the good shortstack player's range) "As you can see you're going to be getting it in behind the short stack's range quite a bit." Which is essentially the same as saying "ITS ONLY 20BB GAMBOOOOL!" Clearly any time you're putting money in the pot with the worst hand hand against a shortstack's better hand, he's going to win more often than you are. And therefore he's going to take your money. I dont even understand how anyone can suggest that you should 3bet a shortstack lightly.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

If you do this with a weaker hand, you're going to be all in with the worst of it, and this makes me money.

how much?

Who cares?

Originally Posted by sauce123

dear shorstackers,

plz kill yourself

I'm 100% with you m8
I didn't want to write it myself, it wouldn't have sound so polite

if ur shorstacking, ok....

if u read an online poker forum in the hope of improving ur poker play, wtf???

and euph, for the record ur post about "fold equity not being the crux of shortstacking" or w/e is almost completely false, as a shortie when someone opens to more than 2 BB ur only options r shove/fold and unless u have JJ-AA AKs its better for u when they fold. oh shit, thats FE.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Originally Posted by euphoricism

If you do this with a weaker hand, you're going to be all in with the worst of it, and this makes me money.

how much?

Ding, ding, ding. Linchpin to the argument, right there.

Euph, you're not Jetdryver on Pstars are you? j/k

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Side benefit of shortstacking:

Since you can shortstack higher stakes than you'd usually play

This is very far from the truth and i recommend you'd stop playing above your BR because when variance hits the fan you'll be broke.

Originally Posted by Silly String

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Originally Posted by euphoricism

If you do this with a weaker hand, you're going to be all in with the worst of it, and this makes me money.

how much?

Ding, ding, ding. Linchpin to the argument, right there.

How so? This is nonsensical. If I'm misunderstanding, someone please explain it to me. 20bb is 20bb, and it doesnt matter if its 2NL or 2k NL. Arguing that shortstacking doesnt make much money is just... silly... I guess I just don't understand the argument. I'm a 50NL player. I get my ass handed to me at full stacked 100NL. But I'm making steady profit of 1-2 buyins a day at 200NL. How is that not making much money, particularly to a guy who only possesses 50NL skill?

Then you add 1ptbb/100 of RB to it. That 1ptbb/100 at 200NL is 4ptbb/100 at 50NL. I have almost the same winrate I did at 50nl in
rakeback alone!

and euph, for the record ur post about "fold equity not being the crux of shortstacking" or w/e is almost completely false, as a shortie when someone opens to more than 2 BB ur only options r shove/fold and unless u have JJ-AA AKs its better for u when they fold. oh shit, thats FE.

You're basically saying, "If someone raises preflop and you reraise with [insert shitty hand here] you would prefer they fold." Well. Yeah. I guess thats true. But we don't actually *do* that.

There are of course some places that FE is nice. Theres often a limped pot, 4 or 5 handed, I shove my Axs from the SB and take the pot down. Thats nice. Free money is nice. But thats not the crux of the strategy and you know it.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Side benefit of shortstacking:

Since you can shortstack higher stakes than you'd usually play

This is very far from the truth and i recommend you'd stop playing above your BR because when variance hits the fan you'll be broke.

Do explain, because I've run the math and I'll wager you havent

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I lol'd. That has to be among your worst posts evar, sauce.

I'm thinking it's time to spin off a half-stack post. I almost feel sick doing it.

I am looking forward to reading this post.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Side benefit of shortstacking:

Since you can shortstack higher stakes than you'd usually play

This is very far from the truth and i recommend you'd stop playing above your BR because when variance hits the fan you'll be broke.

Do explain, because I've run the math and I'll wager you havent

This came off harsher than I wanted it to, apologies. In any case, I'll explain.

Lets say you have $2,000, just at the bottom edge of rolled for 100NL, and some would argue not even enough for that. In any case for 200NL we're only buying in for 20bb or $40. This gives you 50 buyins. I dont think anyone could successfully argue that 50 buyins isn't enough. And therefore you indeed can play higher stakes than you would be able to otherwise.

ISF- yes, u can shortstack higher stakes than u would normally play

euph- shorstacking has very high variance relative to potsize, so if u think u can "make 1-2 bi a day" shorting then u dont have a solid understanding of poker variance. you may be able to run as high as 5 bb/100 (this is pretty generous) playing a fundamentally near-perfect shorstacking strategy over a decent sample. however, if u have the skills to do this u would 100% be better off full-stacking which leads to the point that shorties r usually mediocre poker players. what you have done most likely is run significantly above avg at the time u began to shorstack, and also play better as shortstacking is much easier. you talk like u found the "magic" way to make yourself a much more winning player, but in reality u r running well and will eventually have to combat the same issues to beat 100, 200nl as u did when fullstacking... there is also the inescapable fact that playing short yields a smaller bb/100 than a competent full stacker, AND garners the near universal hate of your peers who you r learning to play poker with...

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Originally Posted by Silly String

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Originally Posted by euphoricism

If you do this with a weaker hand, you're going to be all in with the worst of it, and this makes me money.

how much?

Ding, ding, ding. Linchpin to the argument, right there.

How so? This is nonsensical. If I'm misunderstanding, someone please explain it to me. 20bb is 20bb, and it doesnt matter if its 2NL or 2k NL. Arguing that shortstacking doesnt make much money is just... silly... I guess I just don't understand the argument.

You win fewer BB with your premiums and race or break-even with the rest of your raising range. You also piss away the extremely profitable set hunting hands (22-99).
I guess if you can continue to get called by people willing to dump 20-50BB with AJ pre-flop or goad people into calling then you are good here. I think the regs will adjust. I guess we are all exploiting the fish anyway. I just don't call guys like you without TPTK. I will call other short stackers in that situation with less, and I don't mean the ones who do it with a strategy in mind. I think it is easy to distinguish the two very quickly at a table.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

The main crux of the expert's (not that I am one... yet) shortstack strategy is not exploiting fold equity. That idea is ridiculous. You can't force someone to fold for 20bb. Fold Equity is not even remotely "a lot of his edge"

The crux of the strategy is play better cards than the full stacks and let the math sort itself out. We recognize that people stack off lightly against shortstacks, and in that aspect the concept of a shortstack who thinks he can make you fold is laughable at best.

3betting me light preflop is stupid because I'm not raising bad hands preflop. If you're 3betting me preflop, you really should have a premium hand because I'm going loloshoveadoodles a lot, and you can't fold. If you do this with a weaker hand, you're going to be all in with the worst of it, and this makes me money. I think most people realize this, but its the complete opposite of what he states in that thread.

This is the strategy of a bad short stacker. You'll get your ass kicked by the blinds and in the long run you'll break even unless you game select incredibly well against guys like H@LLINGOL who call off 20BB with 76s.

Good short stackers play like a tourney donk would play with 20 BB, raising a lot shoving a lot and exploiting their fold equity to the max.

Originally Posted by sauce123

if u understand the fundamentals of poker then optimal shortstack strategy is veeerrry easy to figure out but i wont post it here, u can figure it out if u understand how to use poker stove...

QFT

I'm sick of people acting like short stacking is some sort of science. It takes a few hours at the most to put together a complete strategy using PokerStove and it's ridiculous that people who short stack on a regular basis are too lazy to have done so yet.

MCAT- YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

you couldn't be more right.

I can live with shorstackers, i still hate them though, but i cant stand ti when they hit n run.

I think the proper term is: Ratholing short-stack bastards

dislexik,

where did you find Barry Bonds' dog? was he over at Vick's house?

lolshortstackaments

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($283.80)
Button ($193.83)
SB ($70.83)
Hero ($206.30)
UTG ($197)
MP ($165.88)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
1 fold, MP calls $2, 2 folds, SB raises to $4, Hero raises to $15, MP folds, SB calls $12.

Flop: ($34) , , (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $22, SB raises all in, Hero calls $32.83.

Turn: ($90.83) (2 players)

River: ($90.83) (2 players)

Final Pot: $90.83

SB has 3s Ad (one pair, nines).
Hero has Kd Ah (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins $90.83.

cantwinthemallaments

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($402.98)
SB ($275.17)
Hero ($225.53)
UTG ($64.13)
MP ($83.15)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
UTG raises to $6, 3 folds, Hero raises to $17, UTG calls $12.

Flop: ($37) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $26, UTG calls $64.13 (All-In), Hero calls $20.13.

Turn: ($83.13) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($83.13) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $83.13

Hero has Ah Kh (high card, ace).
UTG has Th Qd (one pair, queens).

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

I can live with shorstackers, i still hate them though, but i cant stand ti when they hit n run.

I call it the "Double and Dip"

FWIW I like the 40BB range and it has been very profitable for me for the last couple weeks.


Does it improve my game? - No
Do I care? - No

Short Stacking = the anti-Peter principal.
You get to a point where the skill of your opponents exceeds you and you lose money. People move up and lose money, you see it every day in poker. Short stacking removes the turn/river from the game therefore eliminating two betting rounds in which a better player has opportunities to win the hand or extract value. The result is that more "average" players are able to play "higher stakes" without giving up nearly as much edge on their opponents.


Why do I shortstack?

I don't have time to sit around and study game theory and 35th level thinking. I don't have time to put in 5,000 hands a day to grind out 2-3BB/100 12 tables at a time.

I know I'll never be a "top tier" player. I just don't care enough about studying poker to make it to that point. I'm smarter than the average donkey, and I'm quite happy with the bit of knowledge that I do have.

I couldn't play gabe/fnord/lukie/sauce/ISF with full stacks and expect to beat them. They have an edge on me and I know it but if we cut the stacks down to 20-40BB, it is becomes very difficult for me to make enough mistakes for them to be very profitable. (remember that last sentence)

Now imagine this table dynamic.
1-2 Top Tier players - who have very little to no edge against a short stack
1 - Short stack - me
1-2 Mulit table Tags - who don't play well against a short stack.
1-2 Idiots who don't play well at all.

The money flows up at this table. Idiots lose to the tags, I beat multitags and Idiots, Top Tier beats us all. This is where I see the pecking order, the difference with short stacking is that against the Top Tier I lose "less" money. I'm always going to lose to them, it is just a matter of how much.
I do win a less from the tags/idiots than top tier would, but I also give up much less to the top tier than the Multi/Idiots do.

We take a full stacked player and force them to play "our way". No implied odds, no odds for draws, simple 2 street poker than anyone could do.



Lets talk football for a second.

Imagine a football season where there is no win/loss column, its just points scored and points allowed. At the end of the season they subtract the points allowed from points scored and the biggest # wins.

Now Cleveland plays New England. They know they will give up more points than they score. The coaches primary focus here would be damage control and to keep New England to the lowest number of points. He would slow the game down. Give New England LESS oppertunity, he would keep possession of the ball longer, run the ball more, let the play clock run down on every play.The end result is a losing score, but less of a loss than it could have been. Then next week they play someone who they have an advantage against like Miami and can finish in the positive.



Poker is a game and the money is how we keep score. How do you play?