Oh good, my miracle flop (probably)

Do you think my push on the flop here is optimal? Would a smaller raise be better (or even a call, though I doubt it)? BB is typical bad short stack, calling way too much pre- and post-flop, and hemorrhaging money. CO is OK tagg, hasn't played any notable pots in this short session. I may have an image if CO is at all aware - I've been playing too many hands, raising too much (40/30 over about 40 hands) and winning a lot of small pots without showdown. This will be the fourth time I've raised a pre-flop raiser on the flop, but my first push.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($64.60)
Hero (Button) ($64.40)
SB ($131.85)
BB ($31.80)
UTG ($50.50)
MP ($62.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10, 9
2 folds, CO raises to $1.75, Hero calls $1.75, SB calls $1.50, BB calls $1.25

Flop: ($7) 7, 9, 9 (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $4.50, CO raises to $13, Hero raises to $62.65 (All-In)...

PUSH, LET HIM MAKE A BIG MISTAKE..

Perfect

i would do something other than shove

Originally Posted by nutsinho

i would do something other than shove

What, and why?

My thoughts on the flop action:
- BB's range is pretty wide and between that and his stack size, I'm not worried about him. Of course I'd prefer to get CO in too just in case. I am assuming that BB calls like 80% of the time after putting in 6.00 already, and expressing interest in this board.

- CO almost certainly has an overpair. My main goal for all further action should be to get this player's stack in the middle.

There's nothing you can do here, apart from fold that doesn't look super strong...I guess an advantage to calling is that you might entice BB to come along, whereas you would push him off with a reraise.

Tricky spot here...

[quote="dalecooper"]

Originally Posted by nutsinho

- CO almost certainly has an overpair. My main goal for all further action should be to get this player's stack in the middle.

Why does he have to have an overpair? Raising up a lead in a 4way pot on a 997 flop with two players left to act seems like a really bad idea, unless he's just trying to make the hand play easier and to isolate the weak player. If that's his strategy then his plan is probably not to call a random cold 125bb shove behind him. I would definitely call and bet like 12$ if checked to on the turn.

I think cold flatting the CO's raise looks way too much like 9x, that I much prefer your shove, where someone will probably put you on some kind of strong draw or something.

Originally Posted by griffey24

I think cold flatting the CO's raise looks way too much like 9x, that I much prefer your shove, where someone will probably put you on some kind of strong draw or something.

this is what i was thinking. would raising to like $30 be anything worth considering and shoving any turn? that seems dumb but your cold 3bet is sort of big here.

hate doing this with 9x, really don't mind is with a floosh draw

ok, so what would you do here with the following hands:

99
97
AA
AJcc

Originally Posted by griffey24

I think cold flatting the CO's raise looks way too much like 9x, that I much prefer your shove, where someone will probably put you on some kind of strong draw or something.

so i guess this means that we should just call w/ our strong draws then. or even like a gutshot, or complete air sometimes. which means if we are against a reg we should call w/ everything. or we can shove w/ everything. i dont know about you, but when i flop the stone nuts in a multiway pot i dont like to just go all in for several times the pot size unless i have the most maniacal of images and there is a terrible player involved for the effective stack size.

**Usually the best way to play monsters against regs if you have balanced ranges is to play your hand like exactly what you have.**

well i would be squeezing with those hands most of the time.

Originally Posted by will641

well i would be squeezing with those hands most of the time.

no you wouldnt, because its now the flop and youre facing a bet and raise..

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Why does he have to have an overpair? Raising up a lead in a 4way pot on a 997 flop with two players left to act seems like a really bad idea, unless he's just trying to make the hand play easier and to isolate the weak player.

Yeah - and that's what mediocre to bad taggs at 50 NL do all the time. Bet to make the hand easier, and don't fold big pairs except on the worst possible flops against the craziest possible action. I wouldn't say he HAS to have an overpair but that's a huge part of his range in my mind. Overs + flush draw also. Another 9 hardly ever. 77 hardly ever. I don't think he's raising without a little something (good draw or a pair) because of the multi-way action and my presence after him, unless I'm totally off in my assessment of what kind of player he is.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

If that's his strategy then his plan is probably not to call a random cold 125bb shove behind him. I would definitely call and bet like 12$ if checked to on the turn.

I can see this logic for a call, but $12 on the turn? That is really weak considering the pot would be over $40 (assuming BB calls after me).

Originally Posted by nutsinho

ok, so what would you do here with the following hands:

99
97
AA
AJcc

I think we're crippling the deck too much with boats and quads obviously, that I might just flat those.

If I flat 9x here I feel like I invite BB to call any draw with a pretty good price.

The only problem I have with shoving here is that CO could be raising a reasonably wide range here vs the donk lead, including overpairs that might find a fold if we shove. But for the same reason I'd shove AcJc here and FDs+insiders.

I think its close, but I'd rather just shove and not give BB a good price on a draw, when bad cards might kill action or give us second best.

One thing about the push - it looks like a huge overbet but as it works out for CO, it's really not. The pot is $7 on the flop, plus BB has opened for $4.50 and CO has raised to $13. That makes it about 25 already. I push for about 63, a 3-bet of $50 back to CO who has me covered. BB (spoiler alert) makes the call, dumping another 25 in. So it's 50 for CO to call, and the pot is basically 50 - he's getting 2:1. This doesn't happen if BB folds, but as a bad short stack leading into a multi-way raised pot, we can guess that he usually won't fold - and true to form, he didn't.

It's still questionable if CO reads my 3-bet as massive strength or a mega-semi-bluff, but pot odds for him to call are nowhere near bad, unless BB folds.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I can see this logic for a call, but $12 on the turn? That is really weak considering the pot would be over $40 (assuming BB calls after me).

If they both called i would bet 17$

Is it just me that really hates the idea of shoving a flush draw in this spot?

Originally Posted by Luke999

Is it just me that really hates the idea of shoving a flush draw in this spot?

I'd say this is entirely dependent on CO and his ability to fold. If CO is able to fold an overpair here, then I really like shoving a FD here since it looks super strong. If he can't fold an overpair, then its useless obviously.

I don't think results are as interesting in this hand since we're clearly not folding, but anyway:

BB called, CO went to the time bank and called at literally the last second. BB had Ac 3c, and CO had QQ. I don't know if my table image provoked the call or if CO just can't fold big overpairs. But either way, it worked out for me.

Originally Posted by Luke999

Is it just me that really hates the idea of shoving a flush draw in this spot?

posts like this make me scratch my head, you could at least post why you don't like it.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by Luke999

Is it just me that really hates the idea of shoving a flush draw in this spot?

posts like this make me scratch my head, you could at least post why you don't like it.

maybe because its a 4way raised pot where we are overbet-shoving in 125bb on a paired board after a bet and raise and before someone has even acted yet. this is an unacceptable spew especially considering apparently our opponents will put us squarely on 9x or better if we flatcall.

I'm certainly not advocating jamming all your draws in hero's spot here. But I don't agree with it being such bad spew, to show up with a strong draw here sometimes. Its unacceptable spew if you assume someone has 9x whenever this line takes place. 9x makes up such a small part of CO's range, a range that is heavily weighted towards overpairs/draws if anything. So its really only "unacceptable spew" if we assume that 9x makes up a big part of BB's donk leading range, and/or if CO won't ever fold anything here. The reality is that some CO's we will know can make a fold here and others we know will never fold an overpair here. I see no reason why shoving a draw or shoving 9x on this flop shouldn't be a read based decision, based primarily on CO's tendencies.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by Luke999

Is it just me that really hates the idea of shoving a flush draw in this spot?

posts like this make me scratch my head, you could at least post why you don't like it.

maybe because its a 4way raised pot where we are overbet-shoving in 125bb on a paired board after a bet and raise and before someone has even acted yet. this is an unacceptable spew especially considering apparently our opponents will put us squarely on 9x or better if we flatcall.

wait, i thought ppl hated shoving 9x b/c it had all kinds of FE, or was that just us?

Originally Posted by griffey24

I'm certainly not advocating jamming all your draws in hero's spot here. But I don't agree with it being such bad spew, to show up with a strong draw here sometimes. Its unacceptable spew if you assume someone has 9x whenever this line takes place. 9x makes up such a small part of CO's range, a range that is heavily weighted towards overpairs/draws if anything. So its really only "unacceptable spew" if we assume that 9x makes up a big part of BB's donk leading range, and/or if CO won't ever fold anything here. The reality is that some CO's we will know can make a fold here and others we know will never fold an overpair here. I see no reason why shoving a draw or shoving 9x on this flop shouldn't be a read based decision, based primarily on CO's tendencies.

the biggest reason shoving a draw is spew is that SB covers us and hasnt acted yet. i think it would be a +ev but not optimal play otherwise.